Think i'm ready for the change

[Eloratea]

Sorry , been thinking alot around the thoughts and beliefs and self/I , so far going round in circles with the thoughts/belief bit.

No problem, take your time, but don't think, just look.

Sometimes I feel some awareness - no separation, its brief and then it backs to the thoughts and trying to find something that doesn’t exist - the self. Who is looking,seeing,hearing,touching,feeling,talking -words - it just happens without thought.

Thoughts, sensations are just happening in awareness. The don't need to disappear. Truth is always here and now. Doesn't have to be chased. Look, is there you?

Thought about myself as a kid/baby, there was no or limited thought involved, no ideas of language, just a body/mind (but no real thoughts about this)- maybe no or limited beliefs, certainly no sense of an "i" or self at that age.

How this „self“ comes into being?

[Bharat]

can you clarify on "looking" , I'm more of a thinker, how would I "look" more then "think" ? As currently I think everything in relation to the I/Self.

[Eloratea]

Looking is simple perceiving of here and now, including the thoughts passing, but without identification with them.
(some more on looking also: http://eloratea.blogspot.com/2012/02/pr ... oking.html)


It is like looking into the object in from of you and describing it as it is, without giving interpretations about it, assumptions, or anything else that is not perceived.

So, can you now look at your actual experience and describe it, as you would describe the monitor in front of you?

[Bharat]

It seems to be vicious circles, thoughts lead to more thoughts and sometime feelings, it is the thought that thinks its real ,looking into the thought leads to more thoughts, feelings are stronger , which lead to even more questions about how real they are or even if they are valid.

If thinking/feeling is happening by itself (like a subroutine in a program) going round in circles, what is that is thinking, there is more this thoughts/feelings and more outside of it, but that leads to more thoughts , end up in the same circle.

It's a like joke, somethings having a damn good laugh, what is that is laughing, cant get behind the though. Gettings frustrating , which is athought , does it belong to anyone , not that i can find.

[Bharat]

get a headache from all this thinking and evaluating, what is being evaluated, the contents of the thought. What is a thought, where does come from. Even tried thinking the thoughts/feelings are not valid, they exist, no need to judge it.

The monitor infront of me is a monitor - a label to identify something. Thoughts are labels identifying something percieved whether real or imagined.

batman isnt real, but a imaginery character with a personality, but it doesnt exist, there is no I but just thoughts rising and falling.

Brain feels pumped up! that to is feeling felt in body/mind.

[Eloratea]

Hey Bharat,
this is very simple thing.

Once again: can you describe your actual experience what is going on here and now?

Like: body siting, fingers typing, breathing is happening, eyes seeing, thoughts passing...

[Bharat]

Honestly , it feels like I am sitting (where is the I) , the identification with I is linked in with the physical image of me.

See/hearing/feeling/ is happening, if I focus slightly, i.e move my attention to here and now, there is a slight change, seems I move slightly from thinking to being present more.

What is it that is seeing/hearing / focusing attention , typing is happening ,there is some thinking, as I am reading the words that are being typed. Also feel slightly conscious of the people around me.

Me/I - where is it - this label, belief seems inseparable from the the body/mind/thoughts.

If I focus on here now, thought seems to stop or arent as visible, the environment is where the attention is - i.e seeing is happening, looking at a room, hearing, but I dont feel the need to label everything I see, it is just happening.

I look around , I see tables/chairs/monitors/people, but the labelling is automatic, no thought is required and also removes a certain amount of judgement.

back to work, will respond with more experiences soon.

[Eloratea]

Honestly , it feels like I am sitting (where is the I) , the identification with I is linked in with the physicalimage of me.

Is there you siting or the body is siting and "you" is label added to the perception of the siting body?

Do you exist?

[Bharat]

Firstly apologies for the late response, had a manic weekend, so havent had a moment to reply.

Contininge with direct experience and keeping it simple, as per your last post. Your right that there is auto labelling going on and there is a perception of an I.

Did more thinking but focused more on the here and now - direct exp , questioned , who is listening, seeing , hearing , interpreting - all is happenning by itself. Then where is the self that is interpretting/filtering here and now throught my belief systems, but there isnt an I/self , it is just belief systems/thoughts, response to the current situation, but there is no real I/ self.

Then I felt a slight shift, previous to this I understand the batman being fiction, thoughts being thoughts, the idea/ concept of noself. I had this visceral feeling , that DAMN the self is just as an illusion as batman/santa claus are, there is nothing real, other then this hardcore belief that the self is a separate real entity. I (!) see the crack in the wall, the chink in the armour.

I dont feel much different, but seem happier that I am moving closer to the no self, something has been seen and I just need to look abit deeper to make this more permanent into my daily life, at the moment the noself is only tiny part and the self is more active.

Do I continuing with the same line of investigation, more questions on the I ?

Many thanks once again for time and patience.

Bharat

[Eloratea]

Hey Bharat,

I dont feel much different, but seem happier that I am moving closer to the no self, something has been seen and I just need to look a bit deeper to make this more permanent into my daily life, at the moment the noself is only tiny part and the self is more active.

Many report after seeing it no big difference.
There is no noself, nor self. Both are just concepts. Just keep looking into the reality of experience. Concepts and illusions still stay, just know more and more difference between real and imagined.

Do I continuing with the same line of investigation, more questions on the I ?

You may read this, might be helpful.
http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=748

You still haven’t answered my question: do you exist? :)

Many thanks once again for time and patience.

You're welcome.

[Bharat]

Do I exist , off course not , it is merely a collection of beliefs/thoughts and feelings assuming tobe the self I.e. Bharat, but how can the self be as it no was to being with. Yes there are still lots of beliefs that filter the current perception of what is being interupreted through the senses, but is there a self no.

Finally understand when someone says "let go and let god"/ "get your self out of the way" / "surrender" , makes more sense from the this perspective , still there is way to go , this seems like the first step to clearing out beliefs.

Not sure if anything more needs be said or done right now .. ?

Again much appreciation for your time and continued efforts in pushing me through this.

Bharat

[Eloratea]

Finally understand when someone says "let go and let god"/ "get your self out of the way" / "surrender" , makes more sense from the this perspective , still there is way to go , this seems like the first step to clearing out beliefs.

Definitely it is not the end and entering into a happily-ever-after state.
But rather beginning of the way into a better understanding of life, or more real experience of it.

Not sure if anything more needs be said or done right now .. ?

Well, yes :)
Can you please answer the following questions so we see if there is something that should and could be cleared right now. Rest will follow on its own, differently for everyone.

1. What is illusion of self and how it operates? How would you describe it as clear as possible to someone?
2. What made you see through this, was there some remarkable point that lead to that?
3. How does it feel now? Liberating?


When ready, just look and answer with all honesty.

Best,
El

[Bharat]

1. What is illusion of self and how it operates?

The illusion is simple but damn effective, the thoughts and beliefs systems make it appear as there is a real self, which is the personality, with it hopes/dreams/limits/love/etc . The mind it self cannot know the no self, as its just thinks and interprets thoughts according to belief systems and is stuck in a loop.


How would you describe it as clear as possible to someone?

Sorry, describe what ?

2. What made you see through this, was there some remarkable point that lead to that?

There was no remarkable point, other then concentrating on the direct experience of what is rather then doing too much thinking, which just got me frustrated and led to circular thinking without any progress.

Thinking/percieving my self when I was younger - i.e zero to 12 month old baby - that sort helped me get a grip on the no I/Self, as there was no I/Self when I was so young, only seeing/hearing/feeling,etc, also at the age I'm sure my beliefs would have been none existent(other then survival instincts/food/crap/food) , so all the response of the child would be automatic, I think that helped make it clearer for me.

When it sort of clicked, it seems so obvious and the analogy of batman/santa claus being an illusion made perfect sense.

3. How does it feel now? Liberating? I dont feel any different, I am more aware of my thoughts/beliefs that pop up continually and I can recognise them and can choose to either react to the them or reflect and make a another choice, but I still feel normal , like a did before (no bliss, no angels,no lightness,no clarity). Maybe something is missing ?

[Eloratea]

Sorry, describe what ?

The illusion of self. :) To someone who never heard about it, assuming there is an interest.

How does it feel now? Liberating? I dont feel any different, I am more aware of my thoughts/beliefs that pop up continually and I can recognise them and can choose to either react to the them or reflect and make a another choice, but I still feel normal , like a did before (no bliss, no angels,no lightness,no clarity). Maybe something is missing ?

Nothing might be missing. Let's see if something will arise.
Do you feel that anything is missing right now ?

[Bharat]

This morning ,it feels like I've reverted slightly back to behaving with a self! But then I've not heavily focused in the here and now.

But it seems, there's no going back to the old self as such, as it's not real, but there is a residual remain that is strong, maybe takes time to ware off ?

The illusion feels like looking in the mirror but not seeing the self their physically, one can see the mirror the physical self with the eyes, but there is no reflection on the mirror, it cant be seen, it isnt real, but the body is, it can be see with the eyes, but not the reflection.

Thats about as poetic as I can get. I'm sure I could come up with something better, but does it really matter ?!