Seeing that frees

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Echoz
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Echoz » Fri May 03, 2019 10:11 pm

What happened to the lemon?
It disappeared.
Was there ever a lemon in ‘reality’?
The content of the thought was a lemon, but it was really more like a mirage.
How about the physical reactions when you bit into it, were they real?
No, just an imagining of the sensation, not the sensation itself.
Did you experience a mental image? Was it real?
Yes, it was there, but it was not real. It was just a mirage or imagination of what a lemon looked like, not a lemon itself.
Was the content of the mental image real? Again - was there ever a lemon in reality?
The thought coming up was real, the content in the thought was a lemon, but there was no lemon in "reality". There was an image on a lemon, but it was not real. The thought arising and being an experience is real, but the content is more of an illusion of reality or a mirage like I said earlier.

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Stillness
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Stillness » Fri May 03, 2019 10:35 pm

What happened to the lemon?
It disappeared.
Did the lemon disappear or only the thought of the lemon? There never was this lemon that you imagined, or was there?
How about the physical reactions when you bit into it, were they real?
No, just an imagining of the sensation, not the sensation itself.
Really? Wasn't there a real physical reaction when you imagined biting into the lemon?
The thought coming up was real, the content in the thought was a lemon, but there was no lemon in "reality".
Yes! Can you see the difference between a thought and the content of a thought now?
When you think about Santa - the thought is real. You experience it in reality. Like you would hear or see something. But the content of the thought - that to which the thought seems to point - does not exist in reality.

Is this clearer now? Or would you still say that thought and content of thought are the same? Then let's investigate this further.
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Echoz
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Echoz » Fri May 03, 2019 11:48 pm

Did the lemon disappear or only the thought of the lemon? There never was this lemon that you imagined, or was there?
A thought came up and the lemon was the content of the thought.
Really? Wasn't there a real physical reaction when you imagined biting into the lemon?
There was a physical reaction like more saliva being made in the mouth. I was speaking more on how the sensation is so subdued or different than a real lemon is. Even if I imagine the sensation as close as possible, it never lives up to the real thing. So I guess I answered a different question lol

Is this clearer now? Or would you still say that thought and content of thought are the same? Then let's investigate this further.
It is clearer now, but I would still like to investigate a little further. So, from where I see at the moment, thoughts are a sensation that arise and pass away just like all other sensations, hear, touch etc. The contents of the thoughts are not in reality, but can trigger physical reactions of the body, which also includes emotional reactions. The contents are not real, yet this unreal aspect of thought has a very real impact on experience.

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Stillness
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Stillness » Sat May 04, 2019 8:07 am

So, from where I see at the moment, thoughts are a sensation that arise and pass away just like all other sensations, hear, touch etc.
Great! Yes, thoughts are somewhat equal to sensations in the way that they are experienced directly, now. Thoughts appear as a) mental words or b) mental images
The contents of the thoughts are not in reality, but can trigger physical reactions of the body, which also includes emotional reactions.
What you refer to as "content of thought" I would call the thought itself. A thought can indeed trigger physical reactions or emotions. But the content of the thought - that which the thought is about as if it existed in reality - is just not there in reality.

Can you see this?

I invite you to do another exercise for further clarification:

Think of a cup. Get a very clear picture in your mind. See clearly the size, shape, colour and volume of the cup. Notice whether it is decorated or plain. Notice whether it has a handle. Notice whether it is heavy or fragile. Do you have a clear picture in mind?

Now, can you physically grasp that image of a cup? Can you pour tea into it?

Can you drink from it?

Is there a ‘real’ cup or just a mental image (a thought) of a cup?

Is the content of the mental image (the cup) ‘real’?
If so, you should be able to pour tea in into it.

Thoughts are real only as arising mental images or words, their ‘presence’ cannot be denied.

However their contents - what they are about - are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies.

Further exercise:

Throughout a day investigate the content of thoughts.

When there is a thought (mental image/words) check whether its content (what it’s about) is also here, in reality - or whether the content is just imagination.

Let me know how it goes :-)
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Echoz
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Echoz » Sat May 04, 2019 2:37 pm

Can you see this?
Yes, I see this more clearly now. Thoughts are a sensation that arise but the contents of the thoughts are just not real, seems obvious now lol. All the contents of thought are false and never in reality, they are just imagined/fantasy.
Now, can you physically grasp that image of a cup? Can you pour tea into it?
No, can't grasp it or pour tea into it because it is not real, just imagined.
Can you drink from it?
No, I can imagine I drink from it, but it's still not real.
Is there a ‘real’ cup or just a mental image (a thought) of a cup?
Mental image, the cup is not real.
Throughout a day investigate the content of thoughts.

When there is a thought (mental image/words) check whether its content (what it’s about) is also here, in reality - or whether the content is just imagination.
I'll keep observing this for the rest of the day and will report back later.

Thanks again!

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Stillness
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Stillness » Sat May 04, 2019 3:28 pm

Thoughts are a sensation that arise but the contents of the thoughts are just not real, seems obvious now lol. All the contents of thought are false and never in reality, they are just imagined/fantasy.
Wonderful :-)
I'll keep observing this for the rest of the day and will report back later.
Yes, take your time to explore this, still don't assume or believe anything but always look: what is real (what is here) and what isn't.
This Here Now

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Echoz
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Echoz » Sun May 05, 2019 12:09 am

Throughout a day investigate the content of thoughts.

When there is a thought (mental image/words) check whether its content (what it’s about) is also here, in reality - or whether the content is just imagination.
Been investigating the content of thoughts today and from the experience today all the content seems not be real. Thoughts/content arise, but the content is never real, just imagined.

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Stillness
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Stillness » Sun May 05, 2019 5:58 pm

the content is never real, just imagined.
Great!

Now imagine "Me and my life" - what do you see?

Is this content of thought real?

Look around, where is it?
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Echoz
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Echoz » Sun May 05, 2019 7:16 pm

Now imagine "Me and my life" - what do you see?
I see experiences in life, family, work etc.
Is this content of thought real?
No, only what is here and now is real. All of that just false until it is being experienced. Like when I was with my parents earlier that was real, now I'm not with them and the content of that encounter are not real, just imagined. The linear story of "my life" is just imagined.
Look around, where is it?
No where to be found. What is real right here and now actually seems so small in sense. Right now what is real for me is typing on this computer, the desk and wall, just the things in my immediate realm of sensation. Everything else is not real in this moment.

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Stillness
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Stillness » Sun May 05, 2019 7:24 pm

Wonderful...
What is real right here and now actually seems so small in sense.
Yes, seeing reality is an utmost sober experience. Just this. This is all.
Right now what is real for me is typing on this computer, the desk and wall, just the things in my immediate realm of sensation. Everything else is not real in this moment.
Yes - only experiencing.

So does the "I" exist within this experiencing?

Look closely.
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Echoz
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Echoz » Mon May 06, 2019 12:23 am

So does the "I" exist within this experiencing?
There still feels like there is something holding all of this experience together an "I". Body movements are happening, thoughts are arising and passing away. My experience here and now is what's real, all the thoughts are just full of past experiences and imagined situations, they are not real. But there is still this "I" feeling located in the head.

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Stillness
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Stillness » Mon May 06, 2019 5:32 pm

Yes, we will look into all of this :-)

First, we start with the "I holding together experience" and then we move to "sense of self".
There still feels like there is something holding all of this experience together an "I".
Here is an exercise:

Find somewhere quiet to sit. Listen to the sounds in the room where you are, or sounds from outside. Don't use what you 'know' to answer these questions, simply examine direct experience.

1) In 'hearing' can anything be found other than 'what can be heard'?
2) Is someone doing the hearing? Or is there only 'hearing'?
3) In hearing, is there an 'I', a body, a person, a brain, a pair of ears? Can these be found 'doing' the hearing? Or can these be found 'experiencing' the hearing?

Or is there just hearing?

What do you find?

4) So, can an inherent hearer be found in the experience of hearing?
5) Is there a distinction between 'the heard', 'hearing' and a 'hearer'?
6) Or is it all one experiencing?
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Echoz
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Echoz » Mon May 06, 2019 11:16 pm

1) In 'hearing' can anything be found other than 'what can be heard'?
No, it's just the sound being heard.
2) Is someone doing the hearing? Or is there only 'hearing'?
The hearing is just happening.
3) In hearing, is there an 'I', a body, a person, a brain, a pair of ears? Can these be found 'doing' the hearing? Or can these be found 'experiencing' the hearing?
In hearing, there is only the hearing, nothing else, that's all there is in direct experience of hearing.
What do you find?
I just find hearing happening.
4) So, can an inherent hearer be found in the experience of hearing?
No.
5) Is there a distinction between 'the heard', 'hearing' and a 'hearer'?
No, it seems to be the same.
6) Or is it all one experiencing?
It's kind of all this harmonious experience if that makes any sense.

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Stillness
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Stillness » Tue May 07, 2019 8:32 pm

Okay, great. What about seeing, tasting, feeling, smelling - is there an 'I' in any of this?

What is the direct experience?

Does any experiencing "need" an I?

Is there actually anything that doesn't run on 'autopilot'?
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Echoz
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Re: Seeing that frees

Postby Echoz » Tue May 07, 2019 11:41 pm

Okay, great. What about seeing, tasting, feeling, smelling - is there an 'I' in any of this?
None of these have an "I' when experienced, just the sensation experiencing.
What is the direct experience?
The direct experience just is, it's the raw sensation/experience.
Does any experiencing "need" an I?
No, it's just happening without an "I'.
Is there actually anything that doesn't run on 'autopilot'?
No, autopilot is how everything is running. This is happening and there is no control over it.


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