Die before you die

[Rachszk]

Hi regarding your reply, on expectations. Yes I agree I noticed that I had some expectations with regards to the sense of self, I expected or expect that when the illusion of self is seen then the sensation of self would also disappear. I then realised that the sensation of self was not a problem it was just a feeling or a thought, the real issue was believing the sensation of thought was me the doer/thinker. Thoughts sensations focal points all happen but the labelling and the belief in this label as something real/solid is creating the suffering. It creates the belief there is a me that is in control or needs to be in control, a me that sometimes feels that bad things are happening to it, and me that feels that somehow I should be a better me. But,I am starting to feel that there is more of an openness in me to to this recognition of no inherent self, in the sense of a doer or thinker, and it brings with it a sense of lightness or certainly a sense of feeling lighter and more relaxed.

You then went on to ask me some questions about the knower and awareness, I read the questions in the morning intending to spend some time with them during the day unfortunately I was on a training course today and it was quite intense and tiring and I do not feel I was able to give the questions enough time and consideration throughout the day. tomorrow will be a more relaxed day for me and I will take the questions with me and respond more fully tomorrow evening. When reading the questions initially I was able to spend a brief time looking at whether you can separate thought from awareness, it seems to me that actually you cannot separate thought or Sensation from awareness. I would like to spend a little more time with this idea of the knower, and the feeling of me that I attach to 'awareness' so I feel more clear on it and I will answer the questions individually tomorrow, thank you, Rachel.

[Vivien]

Hi Rachel,

I then realised that the sensation of self was not a problem it was just a feeling or a thought, the real issue was believing the sensation of thought was me the doer/thinker. Thoughts sensations focal points all happen but the labelling and the belief in this label as something real/solid is creating the suffering.

You did a very nice looking. As you discovered, the felt sensation of the sense of self is not a problem of itself. It’s nothing else than a sensation. Even the labelling thought that ‘this sensation is me’ is also not a problem, only when it’s not seen only as a thought appearing but rather its content is taken seriously.

It creates the belief there is a me that is in control or needs to be in control, a me that sometimes feels that bad things are happening to it, and me that feels that somehow I should be a better me.

Yes, and all these are nothing else than narrating thoughts appearing about the self. They refer to ‘me’, to which all this can happen to, but in actual experience this ‘me’ simply not there.

The ‘me’ ‘lives’ in thought. Can you see it?

I would like to spend a little more time with this idea of the knower, and the feeling of me that I attach to 'awareness' so I feel more clear on it and I will answer the questions individually tomorrow

I’m looking forward to your reply.

Vivien

[Rachszk]

Yes. It seems that there is a knower, but is there really?
Is it possible that there is a some sort of agency, who is doing the knowing?
Or maybe the knower is just another illusion, and knowing just happening without a knower?

Yes, I cannot find a knower, there is only the known.

Can a thought be separated from the knowing or awareness of it?
Try your best to separate the two from each other. What happens?

Impossible!

Is there a dividing line between the thought and the knowing or awareness of it?
Can you find the line where the thought ends and the knowing of it starts?

No it seems they are one.

Can you find a though without the knowing of it?
Can you find knower or awareness without any object (like thought, sensation, sight, sound, taste, smell)?

No, I sat with this for a little while. And it seemed so obvious that knowing and known cannot be separated. Whether this relates to thoughts or sensations. In fact I realised that I hadn't actually looked at the phenomenon of awareness. So for example sometimes when I am looking through my eyes I feel a heightened sense of awareness, along with the heightened sense of awareness comes a very subtle energetic feeling, that I can sometimes feel this subtle energy just outside of my body maybe like an energetic aura? (I'm not really too sure about things like that), but I would Focus in on that energy and again I would believe it was a me. Or I would confuse the sense of spaciousness with awareness and again identify with that subtle sense of spaciousness believing it to be awareness and somehow a me that was separate from any other experience happening in the body or mind. But even these subtle energies known and I cannot see a divide between what is known and knowing. I cannot know without there being a n experience to know, because they are not independent.

The ‘me’ ‘lives’ in thought. Can you see it?

When thoughts or sensations arise it seems the me arises. Or the belief in a me. But if I look I feel quite convinced there is not a thinker or an individual generating emotions and even the feeling of bodily sensations no longer seem to hold such a strong sense or belief of a me in them. However I am not not quite sure that is what you mean ? After sitting with the questions about awareness and the knower, I still feel doubt come in when it comes to the 'doer'. So I can see there is no entity choosing thoughts and urges but it still seems to me there is a point between thought and action that at times is consciously chosen, I do not mean things that we do on autopilot, or all the many things the body does of its own accord. So for example the other day when you asked me to make a coffee and look at who was making the decisions and I could not see a me making decisions, choosing when to sip the coffee etc.., but this is a fairly everyday activity that mostly takes very little conscious effort. But what about the difficult decisions and actions we take. Or even the wrong or destructive actions we take. Somehow there is a belief inside of me that I can control these actions, and I feel like I should be able to control my actions, even if I recognise I cannot control my thoughts or the emotions that may arise from these thoughts, it is my choice what to do. So for example I have a craving for chocolate, I might go and eat some chocolate, but perhaps the craving is still there and it is quite strong and I don't want to overeat the chocolate as I don't want to suffer the consequences so at that point I have a choice, well I think I have a choice? but it is more those sorts of circumstances perhaps where you feel you have to act against something that you actually would like to do. Or maybe another example is you are feeling really tired but you know you have to complete a certain task so you push yourself, and finish the task. In these types of circumstances it just feels like something is bridging the gap between the mental activity and the action. so I'm not sure if I have explained it very well but I am going to sit with this for a little while perhaps you will have some comments on it hopefully if you can understand what I am saying. Maybe, I am writing this as the thoughts are coming to me, and maybe I find it a little difficult to accept this idea of no me when when it comes to destructive behaviour I suppose I want to believe that we are in control and responsible, but maybe self control and responsibility or being able to take responsibility and have self control could they also be just happening? Or in some cases just not happening?
,

[Vivien]

Hi Rachel,

I cannot know without there being a n experience to know, because they are not independent.

Exactly. So let’s go deeper with this. Pay attention to whatever is happening right now. There could be sounds, sensations, thoughts, smells, tastes, sights, mental images, etc.

Now, try to remove them one-by-one, until only pure awareness remains.

If there is such thing as awareness, then it can be experienced directly without any object of experience.
Nothing else, just pure knowing, pure aware-ing. No sound, no thought, no sensation, no sight, nothing, just knowing.

What is left of awareness if all the objects (sight, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought) are removed?

even the feeling of bodily sensations no longer seem to hold such a strong sense or belief of a me in them

We will examine the body soon, and the sense of self later.

V: The ‘me’ ‘lives’ in thought. Can you see it?

R: When thoughts or sensations arise it seems the me arises. Or the belief in a me. But if I look I feel quite convinced there is not a thinker or an individual generating emotions and even the feeling of bodily sensations no longer seem to hold such a strong sense or belief of a me in them. However I am not not quite sure that is what you mean ?

What I mean is that there are only thoughts about the self, but such self cannot be found in reality. That’s why I’m saying that the self ‘lives’ in thoughts. Since the self is just a fabrication, just the content of a thought. But the content of a thought is never real. It’s not there. It’s not happening. It’s only a fantasy.

Somehow there is a belief inside of me that I can control these actions, and I feel like I should be able to control my actions, even if I recognise I cannot control my thoughts or the emotions that may arise from these thoughts, it is my choice what to do.

What does the word ‘I’ in the above sentence refer to?
"there is a belief inside of me" - how is it known exactly that the belief is inside? Inside of what?

“I feel I should be able to control my actions” – how is this felt exactly?
Can this be felt at all, or is it rather just an appearing thought?

But what about the difficult decisions and actions we take. Or even the wrong or destructive actions we take.

Find the thing that is making difficult decisions. Where is it?
Where is the ‘thing’ that is taking or performing actions?
What is it that could choose between good or bad (or destructive) actions? – find it

So for example I have a craving for chocolate, I might go and eat some chocolate, but perhaps the craving is still there and it is quite strong and I don't want to overeat the chocolate as I don't want to suffer the consequences so at that point I have a choice, well I think I have a choice?

OK. Let’s examine this closely. Please put some chocolate (or something you think you shouldn’t eat or drink) in front of you. Look at it. Inspect it closely. Smell its delicious fragrance. And pay attention to emerging desire to eat it.

When the desire is there, pay close attention to the thought process.
See how thoughts list pros and cons why you should or shouldn’t eat the chocolate.
These opposing thoughts might even try to argue or convince each other what to decide.

What is it that is considering these options?
Is there anything that is listing the pros and cons, or only just thoughts appear about pros and cons?

Now, make a decision, but whatever you decide, don’t eat the chocolate (yet). Rather just pay very close attention when the decision is made. Particularly pay attention to thoughts, as the decision is made.
Let’s say a thought appear: “I decided to not eat the chocolate”

So the thought about the decision just appeared. What made that thought to appear?
Can you find the thing that made that decision, apart from the presence of the thought about the decision?
How exactly the decision is made?

Now, do according to the decision. (Either eat or don’t eat the chocolate.)
What is it that performed the chosen action?

Or maybe another example is you are feeling really tired but you know you have to complete a certain task so you push yourself, and finish the task.

OK. Let’s take this apart.
There are some sensations present with a thought label that “I feel tired”.
But then some thoughts appear saying that “I cannot rest now, I have finish this task first”. - What made this thought to appear?

And then another thought appears with the content: “OK, I finish this task now because it’s important, and after that I’ll go to sleep”. – What made this thought to appear?

What is it exactly that considered the possibilities of sleeping or finishing the task?
What is it that ‘fears’ the negative consequences of not finishing the task?

In these types of circumstances it just feels like something is bridging the gap between the mental activity and the action

.
What is it exactly that is performing the action of finishing the task?
What is moving the body to do the necessary actions?

maybe I find it a little difficult to accept this idea of no me when when it comes to destructive behaviour I suppose I want to believe that we are in control and responsible, but maybe self control and responsibility or being able to take responsibility and have self control could they also be just happening? Or in some cases just not happening?

What is it that finds it difficult to accept the idea of no control? Isn’t this just another thought appearing?
Find the thing that wants to be responsible. Where do you look? What can you find?

Vivien

[Rachszk]

What is left of awareness if all the objects (sight, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought) are removed?

? I don't think there would be anything. Its impossible to do. I cannot separate awareness from bodily sensations. I can clear my mind of thoughts briefly by meditating focusing on the breath etc. But I cannot separate thought from awareness of thought.

What does the word ‘I’ in the above sentence refer to?
"there is a belief inside of me" - how is it known exactly that the belief is inside? Inside of what?

“I feel I should be able to control my actions” – how is this felt exactly?
Can this be felt at all, or is it rather just an appearing thought?

The energetic movement or bodily Sensation between thoughts or between thoughts and actions. I noticed that some thoughts beget other thoughts and some thoughts produce an energy that moves the body. Sometimes Between thoughts and movement there is a feeling in the body like an energy or an urge. Another thing that feels like a 'me' but I see now it's not it's just a feeling between two experiences.

"I should be able to control my actions" , yes this is just a thought. some thoughts feel like they are more important or more weighty than other thoughts, perhaps they produce more of an emotion or sensation in the body, again those thoughts can have more of a me feeling then perhaps a passing fancy or daydreaming. It's like some thoughts carry a more important message so I focus in on them them and the me feeling arises. But I see different thoughts carry different sensations or weight but there is still no me instigating them, or even evaluating them.

Find the thing that is making difficult decisions. Where is it?
Where is the ‘thing’ that is taking or performing actions?
What is it that could choose between good or bad (or destructive) actions? – find it

It seems that when thoughts go into conflict with one another e g i want to eat some chocolate but apart of me doesn't want to eat some chocolate this can bring a strong feeling of me as I feel as if I am arguing with myself. But if I look closely the desire arises, then the conflicting thought arises, in the middle I feel like there is me. But actually there is just a gap and the bodily Sensation as the focal Point switches from thought to Sensation and then back to the next thought. So during the the conflict in my mind the focal Point jumps about from thought to body to emotion. In this case I was presuming again that the bodily sensations were a 'me'.

What is it that is considering these options?
Is there anything that is listing the pros and cons, or only just thoughts appear about pros and cons?

It is just thought after thought. And between these thoughts is bodily sensations, urges or feelings of restrictive energy. I keep looking and I feel like I should find someone there but I don't just thoughts and Sensation.

quote][But then some thoughts appear saying that “I cannot rest now, I have finish this task first”. - What made this thought to appear?

And then another thought appears with the content: “OK, I finish this task now because it’s important, and after that I’ll go to sleep”. – What made this thought to appear?

What is it exactly that considered the possibilities of sleeping or finishing the task?
What is it that ‘fears’ the negative c /quote]

The thoughts just arise. The first thought that I need to finish this task before I rest, just arises, it could be based on conditioning/neurosis or necessity but either way there is no instigator of the thought no me starting ,Middling or finishing the thought. Again there may the argument with the thought, 'I'm too tired, perhaps I could leave it till tomorrow,' but then a a counter argument might come in, 'this is too important, you made a promise, I can't relax until it's done' excetera whatever the argument might be. But I can see again that thought creates Sensation and another thought arises perhaps based on that Sensation, it's like a chain reaction, a pre conditioned response, that once started just seems to have its own flow. But I see now I was identifying or believing there was a doer at certain stages of this scenario but upon looking this
does
not seem to be the case.

What is it exactly that is performing the action of finishing the task?
What is moving the body to do the necessary actions?

This is a hard question. Moving the body again, I've taken it so for granted that 'i' move my body. I think I will spend some time tomorrow with this question. What is moving the body?

What is it that finds it difficult to accept the idea of no control? Isn’t this just another thought appearing?
Find the thing that wants to be responsible. Where do you look? What can you find?

Yes, again this is a thought. I realised that there was some resistance to the idea of no me and responsibility, as I thought perhaps the realisation of no me might make me irresponsible or unkind. But I realised that I I'm not being responsible or kind anyway these are things that are just happening. And likely will continue to happen or not, but 'i' I'm not really make any difference to that. I will spend the rest of the evening looking at the sense of me in my bodily movements and see what is going on and I will let you know tomorrow. Thanks Rachel

[Vivien]

Hi Rachel,

I don't think there would be anything. Its impossible to do. I cannot separate awareness from bodily sensations. I can clear my mind of thoughts briefly by meditating focusing on the breath etc. But I cannot separate thought from awareness of thought.

And does this SEEMING awareness have a location?

The energetic movement or bodily Sensation between thoughts or between thoughts and actions. I noticed that some thoughts beget other thoughts and some thoughts produce an energy that moves the body. Sometimes Between thoughts and movement there is a feeling in the body like an energy or an urge

Let’s look at this ‘energy’.
What is the actual experience of ‘energy’?

It's like some thoughts carry a more important message so I focus in on them them and the me feeling arises.

What does the word ‘I’ in the above sentence (“I focus on them”) refer to?
What is it exactly that is doing the focusing?

In this case I was presuming again that the bodily sensations were a 'me'.

“I was presuming” – what does the word ‘I’ refer to in this sentence?
What is making the presumption?

urges or feelings of restrictive energy.

What is the actual experience of an ‘urge’?
What is the actual experience of ‘restrictive energy’?

I keep looking and I feel like I should find someone there but I don't just thoughts and Sensation.

What is it that is looking for the ‘I’?
“I feel like I should find someone there” – how does this actually felt? Is this really a feeling/sensation? Or what is it?

But I can see again that thought creates Sensation and another thought arises perhaps based on that Sensation

Do thoughts have such power to create sensations?
What thoughts can do?
Do they have volition?

I realised that there was some resistance to the idea of no me and responsibility, as I thought perhaps the realisation of no me might make me irresponsible or unkind.

But do see that this is just the content of another thought arising?
A thought about a ‘me’ who could be irresponsible or unkind?

Moving the body again, I've taken it so for granted that 'i' move my body. I think I will spend some time tomorrow with this question. What is moving the body?

Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.
Watch like a hawk.

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

When the head of a sunflower turns to the sun, what is moving the flower?
Is there a ‘mover’ somewhere inside the flower to turn its head?
When the hand is turning up and down, is there a ‘mover’ hidden somewhere inside the hand or the body performing the movement?

Vivien

[Rachszk]

And does this SEEMING awareness have a location?

Not sure, I don't know what awareness is. I know that i am aware, or that awareness is here. That's how thought and sensations are know. I can't have a direct experience of awareness. Its just the name given to knowing, and it's just wherever knowing is. Sometimes awareness is more focused like if i'm in pain or feeling a strong emotion, but if i'm relaxed or meditating then awareness is expanded and I can be aware of more body parts and sensations.

What is the actual experience of ‘energy’?

So i've been looking more closely at thoughts, and the energy I thought they produced to create more thoughts or emotions. I think what happens is I have a thought, eg, 'i really fancy some chocolate', and it feels like there was an energy, what i realised was actually this is the feeling of 'desire', then conflicting thoughts may arise, eg 'no i can't i'll gain weight'. So I assumed that one thought was creating the next thought, or, perhaps thoughts were creating the sensation of desire. But i have been look at this and thinking through different scenarios where thoughts are in conflict or strong emotions might arise due to thoughts, eg, a memory of being hurt might create anger, or thinking about going on holiday might create happiness. I was looking at what happens between the thoughts. I thought that certain thoughts evoked emotions. But i am wrong there is no energy between thoughts or between thoughts and emotions. In fact looking now I would say i feel a thought or sensation first then the thought arises, or alternatively they seem to arise almost spontaneously as in the case of a hurtful memory, the images and emotions arise at the same time. With desire thoughts the feeling of desire arises and the thoughts say 'I want...' then the conflict comes in and so thoughts might say 'no i can't' and there might be a sensation of disappointment, but again between the thought 'i can't..' and the feeling there is no energy, each arises spontaneously, independantly.

What does the word ‘I’ in the above sentence (“I focus on them”) refer to?
What is it exactly that is doing the focusing?

Sorry i'm not sure, there is focusing and knowing of focusing. Focusing, like zooming in or concentrating, it feels like a more constricted energy in the body. And then I know that focusing has happened so I say I am focusing. So I would refer to the 'knowing' or 'knower'. So where is the knower, again I come back to what i would call awareness. This is really hard to unravel. Because I look and i see the knower and known cannot be pulled apart, but it doesn't sink in.

[quote“I was presuming” – what does the word ‘I’ refer to in this sentence?
What is making the presumption?][/quote]

Again it comes back to the knower. The act of presuming is just a thought that thinks it knows something based on past experience. But 'I', know, 'I' presume, its just again i keep feeling like there's a 'me' and it is the knower.

What is it that is looking for the ‘I’?
“I feel like I should find someone there” – how does this actually felt? Is this really a feeling/sensation? Or what is it?

I think I would just have to go back to awareness/or the knower, these are the same thing to me. Sorry I am really stuck with this, I just keep seperating the two. The knower and known. More and more i can see thoughts sensations arising, no me, a sense of spontaneous happening. But then I say 'I' feel, 'i' think and instinctively, i think whatever knows experiences is me.

[quoteDo thoughts have such power to create sensations?
What thoughts can do?
Do they have volition?][/quote]

I think i have part answered this earlier. No they don't 'create' sensation, or if they do it's now a process i'm aware or, I cannot see a link. But I can see thought arising about sensation or emotion, labelling it. Or if a thought arises say, 'I want to see if i am free to meet my friend Wednesday for dinner' but i check my calender and i'm busy then I may feel disappointed at the realisation but I cannot see a direct physical link between the two. The ability to understand words and thoughts and concepts obviously has some effect, on how words are responded to. If I told a baby that a hurricane was coming, they wouldn't understand what I had said, but if someone told me a hurricane was coming, it would produce anxiety and motivation to make sure I and my family was safe, because I understand what the words stand for. But i can also see that even 'understanding' just happens as our brains develop. And the anxiety I might feel, the thoughts that might arise, the planning etc, all these seem to just arise and happen.

But do see that this is just the content of another thought arising?
A thought about a ‘me’ who could be irresponsible or unkind?

Yes! I see that.

I have been looking at movements in the body today also, particularly focusing on breathing, but I am going out now, if i get time i'll answer the rest of the questions re the body and movement when i get back. And i'll do the hand excercise. thanks Rachel.

[Rachszk]

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

When the head of a sunflower turns to the sun, what is moving the flower?
Is there a ‘mover’ somewhere inside the flower to turn its head?
When the hand is turning up and down, is there a ‘mover’ hidden somewhere inside the hand or the body performing the movement?

Just in case you might not realise I have answered the other questions Iin the post before this. Unfortunately it doesn't work if I try to save my answers to draft. So I posted some earlier and have come back to do the hand exercise. I spent the day on and off observing movements, mainly breathing. Taking in a deep breath through the nose and breathing out through the the mouth. And I have sat with the arm exercise until my arm ached and I switched arms. And I don't know how the movement is controlled. I can feel that my muscles are tense holding my arm out straight. The arm turns itself. I think' I am going to turn my arm. ' Then the arm starts to turn. I'm not sure how but now thought does not directly control in any way I can percieve. There was no choice/chooser when it came to which arm to use, the right arm just instinctively rose.


When the head of a sunflower turns to the sun, what is moving the flower?
Is there a ‘mover’ somewhere inside the flower to turn its head?

No 'mover', I don't know .


When the hand is turning up and down, is there a ‘mover’ hidden somewhere inside the hand or the body performing the movement?

No, i just don't know. The body seems to move without a mover. So if I think ' take a deep breath through the nose', then I start to suck in breath through my nose, but I cannot see the I that is sucking in breath. I'll keep practicing the exercise, as this does not feel clear. Thanks Rachel

[Vivien]

Hi Rachel,

I'll reply to you in one post when you answered to all questions.

Have a nice day,
Vivien

[Rachszk]

What is the actual experience of an ‘urge’?
What is the actual experience of ‘restrictive energy’?

The urge is actually, desire. And I realised that it's actualy a feeling, that arises. And then either I move in response to the desire or an argument begins in the mind, as to why I should not follow through on the desire, these thoughts are sometimes accompanied by an energetic feeling or Sensation that feels oppressive or restrictive. But these are just feelings in my body accompanied by thoughts.

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
When the head of a sunflower turns to the sun, what is moving the flower?
Is there a ‘mover’ somewhere inside the flower to turn its head?
When the hand is turning up and down, is there a ‘mover’ hidden somewhere inside the hand or the body performing the movement?

How is movement controlled. It seems that alot of movement is spontaneous or unconscious. I adjust the way I'm sitting. I get up to fetch something my body moves and I give it very little thought. and in these movements there is less of a feeling of Amy or an easier acceptance of 'no mover.' so bringing conscious intention to movement I noticed. That first an intention arose in my mind. Then the arm just responded? I did not choose which arm. My right arm just went up. But the problem came in when I consciously started to turn or Twist my arm. Whilst turning the arm I looked to see where is the 'me' that is turning the arm? I felt a sort of holding near the top of the arm. I realised this was the feeling of my muscles being tense and holding /moving the arm. And I thought that is where I believe the me is but it is not obviously. Then I focused on the actual movement the twisting of the arm, palm up/palm down, again 'me' was felt in the movement, it was the sensation of the movement that I attached a 'me' to. I think i attach a me to sensations. Although on closer inspection sensations are felt but the feeler or knower of sensation does not exist. It is just the sensation. But the movement part, no matter how closely I look I just can't feel convinced there is no mover or me moving the arm. I'll have to keep trying. I have been trying through the day to observe my body movingg, walking etc.. and I can see when the body spontaneously moves, that there is no 'i', or the idea of a mover is a lot looser, but because I am consciously requesting my arm to move it feels more like 'i' must be making this happen, because not only can imake my arm move I can make it stop!


When the head of a sunflower turns to the sun, what is moving the flower?
Is there a ‘mover’ somewhere inside the flower to turn its head?
When the hand is turning up and down, is there a ‘mover’ hidden somewhere inside the hand or the body performing the movement?

I suppose the sunflower moves because it's programmed to genetically? But there is no 'mover'. It just moves. I don't really know how,but definitely no 'mover'. I keep looking at my arm, I can see and feel the muscles move. I just feel pretty sure that I'm moving it. I know I can't find the mover, but but in my mind I think it's because I'm not looking hard enough. Because I can't see how it can be moving with no mover. I'll come back to the exercise again tomorrow. Thanks Rachel

[Vivien]

Hi Rachel,

Not sure, I don't know what awareness is. I know that i am aware, or that awareness is here. That's how thought and sensations are know. I can't have a direct experience of awareness. Its just the name given to knowing, and it's just wherever knowing is.

Awareness is the act of knowing itself; awareness is not the agent caring out the knowing.
There is no noun carrying out the action. Awareness is happening, knowing sensations or thoughts is happening, but there’s nothing else there. No agent is behind the knowing.

The body doesn’t have awareness. Quite the opposite. The body is being ‘aware-d’ / experienced (as sensations and images).

But even that is not totally true. There is no separation between the so called subject and the object. All seeming separation created by thinking.

Saying that sensations appear in awareness is separation, so sensation can be observed from the distance (from the point of view of awareness). But there is no distance. There is zero distance between the appearing thought and the awareness of it. The thought itself is the awareness of it. There is no sensation without the awareness of it, and there is no awareness without the sensation. None of them can stand alone. Actually, there are no two. They are one. They are the same. There is no subject-object relation at all.

Experience is not divided into a perceiving subject and a perceived object which are connected through an act of perceiving. There is only a seamless experience. Can you see this?

but if i'm relaxed or meditating then awareness is expanded and I can be aware of more body parts and sensations.

Awareness cannot be expanded, since awareness is not a noun.
Only thoughts say that since there are more things are present, more sensations and body parts (which are also nothing else than sensations), therefore awareness is expanded. But this is not the case.
There are only more ‘objects’ is known. But even that is not true. There is just knowing of objects. Do you see this?

“If I’m relaxed and meditating” – what is that is relaxed and doing the meditating?

Sorry i'm not sure, there is focusing and knowing of focusing.

This statement assumes that there are two things:
- focusing
- and the knowing the focusing

But are there really 2 things there? Can the knowing of focusing be separated from focusing?

Again it comes back to the knower. The act of presuming is just a thought that thinks it knows something based on past experience. But 'I', know, 'I' presume, its just again i keep feeling like there's a 'me' and it is the knower.

Ponder on this: It FEELS LIKE that the ‘I am the knower’. It’s been here all the time. It SEEMS LIKE that. So supposedly, I am my most intimate experience. Everything comes and goes, but it SEEMS that I am constantly here.

But if this were really the case, wouldn’t be the easiest tasks of all to find myself? Wouldn’t it be totally obvious where I am located exactly? If the ‘I am’ is my most intimate experience as it SEEMS LIKE, then wouldn’t I know for sure, without any hesitation, what I am exactly and where I am exactly? And wouldn’t need to search for myself, and this SEEMING ‘me’ wouldn’t be an elusive, shapeshifter, like a ghost that cannot be found. Can you see this?

i think whatever knows experiences is me.

This is nothing else than a thought, which is not seen only as arising thought, but rather its content is taken as reality. "I think" - even this thought says that is just a thought.

The urge is actually, desire. And I realised that it's actualy a feeling, that arises. And then either I move in response to the desire or an argument begins in the mind, as to why I should not follow through on the desire, these thoughts are sometimes accompanied by an energetic feeling or Sensation that feels oppressive or restrictive. But these are just feelings in my body accompanied by thoughts.

OK, let’s see what is REALLY happening here in direct experience.

There is a sensation present.
Thoughts label this sensation with all sorts of labels, like ‘feeling’, ‘desire’, ‘urge’. The label doesn’t matter. It’s just a sensation with a thought label.
Then a movement is happening. Without a mover. Just a moment (which is also just sensations).
Thoughts appear ABOUT arguments. The thoughts are present, but their content is just a fabrication.
Another sensation appear, with the thought label ‘desire’.
Another sensation, with the label ‘energetic feeling’, overlayed with another thought label ‘oppressive or restrictive’.
Then a thought arise: “these are just feelings in my body accompanied by thoughts”.

This is it. Everything else is just a story. Just a thought interpretation, not the actual experience. Can you see this?

and in these movements there is less of a feeling of Amy or an easier acceptance of 'no mover.'

What is it that needs to accept of ‘no mover’?
Isn’t the ‘non-acceptance’ just another thought?

I realised this was the feeling of my muscles being tense and holding /moving the arm. And I thought that is where I believe the me is but it is not obviously. Then I focused on the actual movement the twisting of the arm, palm up/palm down, again 'me' was felt in the movement, it was the sensation of the movement that I attached a 'me' to. I think i attach a me to sensations.

There is a sensation, labelled by thought as “my muscles being tense and holding / moving the arm’.
But in reality, there is nothing else than a sensation and the thought labels and the movement (which is also just sensations).
A thought appeared with the content: “this is where I am, but I’m not sure”.
Then focusing happened, without a focuser, just pure focusing.
The arm moved, without a mover doing it. Just a movement happened.
Thought appeared suggesting that “I feel the ‘me’ in the movement”. But this is just a thought and the sensations labelled as ‘movements’.
Then another thought: “I attached a ‘me’ to the movement”.
Another thought: “I think I attach a me to sensations.”

But in reality, there is no mover, there is no I that could attach a me to sensations.

And by the way, how could the ‘I’ attach to a ‘me’ to sensations?
How many of you are there?

But the movement part, no matter how closely I look I just can't feel convinced there is no mover or me moving the arm

“I just can’t feel convinced there is no mover” – what does the word ‘I’ refer to in this sentence?
What is it exactly that needs to be convinced?

but because I am consciously requesting my arm to move it feels more like 'i' must be making this happen, because not only can imake my arm move I can make it stop!

There is no such thing as “I am consciously requesting” – there is nothing that could request anything. This is just the content of a thought.

“I can make my arm stop” – so a thought appear “stop”, and the movement stops. So there is a thought about stopping, and the movement of stopping. But nothing more. No mover, no stopper, no requester. All of these are just fantasies / concepts / notions / thoughts.

Because I can't see how it can be moving with no mover.

This is a very important sentence! This is the belief that is preventing the acceptance of what has already been seen, that there is no mover. Since the belief that “there must be a mover, otherwise how all this happens” is in contradiction with the actual experience (of no mover). And since this belief not seen only as a belief and thus assumption the actual experience of no mover is rejected. But this rejection is nothing else than another thought! Can you see this?

Vivien

[Rachszk]

Experience is not divided into a perceiving subject and a perceived object which are connected through an act of perceiving. There is only a seamless experience. Can you see this?

Yes, the part where you wrote there is no distance between the appearing thought and awareness of it......there is no awareness without the sensation. Where there is not thought or feeling there is no knowing. I also realise i cannot move awareness around, i cannot pull awareness back from what is happening.

There are only more ‘objects’ is known. But even that is not true. There is just knowing of objects. Do you see this?

“If I’m relaxed and meditating” – what is that is relaxed and doing the meditating?

Nothing, there is relaxing and concentration, bodily sensations, and thought which says 'I am meditating'.

But are there really 2 things there? Can the knowing of focusing be separated from focusing?

No focusing cannot be seperate from knowing focusing. Focusing is known.

Ponder on this: It FEELS LIKE that the ‘I am the knower’. It’s been here all the time. It SEEMS LIKE that. So supposedly, I am my most intimate experience. Everything comes and goes, but it SEEMS that I am constantly here.

But if this were really the case, wouldn’t be the easiest tasks of all to find myself? Wouldn’t it be totally obvious where I am located exactly? If the ‘I am’ is my most intimate experience as it SEEMS LIKE, then wouldn’t I know for sure, without any hesitation, what I am exactly and where I am exactly? And wouldn’t need to search for myself, and this SEEMING ‘me’ wouldn’t be an elusive, shapeshifter, like a ghost that cannot be found. Can you see this?

Yes but i also see that the knower is not here all the time. It has been here with every thought and experience but it is not here always. There is no knower when I am in deep sleep. The knower or rather knowing is only here when there is something to experience.

This is it. Everything else is just a story. Just a thought interpretation, not the actual experience. Can you see this?

Yes, I would agree that everything is as you would list it if the experience were listed simply in terms of direct experiencing, without overlaying it with an I thought. Because as i look back over the experience I can see at no point does an I come into the experience, at not point does a seperate entity take charge or perform any of the experiences, only that thought arises saying, 'i want' or 'i don't want', which is just thought and labelling. Then movement may happen to fulfill the desire, again i cannot find a mover, just movement.

and in these movements there is less of a feeling of a me or an easier acceptance of 'no mover.'
What is it that needs to accept of ‘no mover’?
Isn’t the ‘non-acceptance’ just another thought?

Yes I can see this.

And by the way, how could the ‘I’ attach to a ‘me’ to sensations?
How many of you are there?

I am thinking up two 'me's'. But I am just thinking them. My mind says 'me' when a sensation is felt. But there is no me. Then the mind says 'I' have found a 'me in sensation. The first me is sensation, the second me is a thought.

[quote“I just can’t feel convinced there is no mover” – what does the word ‘I’ refer to in this sentence?
What is it exactly that needs to be convinced?][/quote]

This is a good question. It is just a thought. 'I am not convinced'. This is a thought.

Because I can't see how it can be moving with no mover.
This is a very important sentence! This is the belief that is preventing the acceptance of what has already been seen, that there is no mover. Since the belief that “there must be a mover, otherwise how all this happens” is in contradiction with the actual experience (of no mover). And since this belief not seen only as a belief and thus assumption the actual experience of no mover is rejected. But this rejection is nothing else than another thought! Can you see this?

'There must be a mover or this cannot be happening' - yes i can see this is is a belief.

[Rachszk]

Sorry this is continuation, my daughter wanted her laptop back , so I've switched devices. Regarding the belief how can there be movement within mover.

Yes I can see this is a belief. It does contradict direct experience. I cannot find a mover. The mind wants to argue these points but I think that is just fear. I am afraid to see my non existence. But if I stay with direct experience as I have seen over and over there is no me. As I mentioned at the start of our conversation I do fear death and non existence and I know that I cannot know what happens after death but I see more clearly now that it does not look as if some hidden me is going to pop out and prove itself to be some eternal separate self that will leave the body upon its death. In fact quite the opposite it would seem in a way that each time sensations or thoughts die so do I, but when they arise so do I. But still something is not quite clicking.

[Vivien]

Hi Rachel,

My mind says 'me' when a sensation is felt. But there is no me. Then the mind says 'I' have found a 'me in sensation.

Is there such thing as ‘mind’? What is the actual experience of ‘mind’?

In fact quite the opposite it would seem in a way that each time sensations or thoughts die so do I, but when they arise so do I.

Exactly! Nice looking.

I cannot find a mover.

So, is it totally clear that there is no such thing a chooser or mover?
Is it totally clear that there is no such thing as choice or free will?
If not, please write some examples when it seems to be otherwise.

Let’s start to investigate the body and sensation. The illusion of the self is not just simply coming from thoughts, but also from the belief that “I am the body” or “I have a body” or that this or that sensation is ‘me’, or the location of the ‘me’, or ‘awareness’, or that this or that sensation is happening to ‘me’. So the thought label ‘this is me’ and the appearing sensations are welded together, creating a ‘sense of self’.

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

Vivien

[Rachszk]

Is there such thing as ‘mind’? What is the actual experience of ‘mind’?

Hi, no mind I'm just using it as another way of saying thoughts.

So, is it totally clear that there is no such thing a chooser or mover?
Is it totally clear that there is no such thing as choice or free will?
If not, please write some examples when it seems to be otherwise.

,

Yes this seems clear, no, chooser no mover, no free will. When I go to double check, there is just no argument anymore. It's not a constant recognition, as in when I am going about the day, I'm not constantly aware of holding this information. But all I can describe it as, there is more of a sense of relaxation in the body. Often when I am speaking, thinking of doing something the recognition that there is no me 'doing' anything might arise and this feels true, I don't feel doubt. It's not that I don't feel a sensation of a 'me' or that I don't use the words me or 'i', they have lost the feeling of the 'personal'. If that makes sense. More and more, there is just a feeling of what is, one thing not two, just this. Yes there are times I will say 'i' and there will be a sense of personal, but the moment it is noticed it is finished. The main time the feeling of separation arises is when asked to look at something,deliberate focusing, eg, so look and see is there a mover, then 'i' look, for a moment there can be the 'i' feeling and the sense of a doer, again it is the feeling of the focal point, but it carries the thought I am looking. But once the thought is noticed, it just drops and there is simply 'focusing'.

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

I will start to answer these questions, but may need time tomorrow to finish. As I did not get much time to go over them through out the day. But funnily enough this is what I was thinking about when I went to bed last night. The 'i am the body' thought. And I reflected on this as I fell to sleep. Simply noticing the sensations in the body. Again looking for a 'me' in the body. First I noticed there is not a 'me' and the body, there is just 'body' but again thoughts say 'my' body. As if there is a separate me located inside this body. Again the main problem comes with the focal point or looking through the eyes as this creates a feeling that there is an entity inside the body gazing out.

[Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form? /quote]

I'm not sure about the first question . I cannot feel how tall I am. Weight/volume. Yes there is a heaviness to the body, but I cannot find a me that feels the weight of it. It's more a feeling of density in places. .
Shape/form - no there are just sensations, I can see that my mind formulates pictures of the body and so this sort of 'fills in the gaps' as it were. But the experience of the body without mental images is (quite hard to do) sensation, which is caused either by tension or contact with another item. Some areas of the body I cannot feel at all.

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

? I'm not sure. I feel like there is. There is a place where body ends and chair/clothes beginn.

I've written these questions out and ill spend more time with them tomorrow. And answer them, thanks Rachel.