Can't quite let go

[Dizzily]

Hi Jon,

[A]re you still experiencing the fear or anxiety? It's important for me to know this.

Thanks for asking. The short answer is: not today. I had some fear and low moods back when we were talking about nihilism and so on. The low mood came on very suddenly and seemed to leave not long after my last email literally just when it seemed like my mind began to accept that a thought couldn't own anything or be anything like a self--it's just a fleeting manifestation of awareness. At that time, it felt like I had it--had this glimpse where everything was the same but something seemed to drop away/relax inside for a little. It's not the first time this has happened. However, these glimpses don't last.

I have also had some spaciness, some moments where my mind stopped conceptualising on top of raw experience briefly, stopped labelling. Kinda frightening when it happens while you're driving, although it didn't seem to affect my ability to drive. I wasn't sure whether to mention it, because it didn't seem like a common experience to people here, and I didn't know what to make of it.

Is [the body real]? There are sensations which are real enough because they are directly experienced but 'the body'?

Experientially, it's an association between physical sensations and the visual that the mind creates. When I close my eyes and concentrate on the raw physical sensations without visualising, then it's not a body so much as clouds of something like energy. If I had no preconception of a body, it might even be hard to figure out the precise shape of it just from physical sensations.

Visually, it's more the mind labelling parts of what it sees as body. Really, this is colour and depth and texture that the mind conceptualises as "mine"--hands, for example, as I type. So, I guess the body is not directly experienced--more like a label and concept we create through cohering the direct experiences of sight and feel.

If 'university' cannot be directly experienced, in what sense is it real?

Okay, so university is a label. Body is a label. They are high-level concepts but they do not capture the experience or the thing itself. So, what do I find in the body? Sensations, I guess. Clusters of specific sensations that get labelled as body or hands or feet, etc.

Is there a thought or feeling that 'you' or 'awareness' [is] 'inhabiting a body'?

Ah, it gets so confusing the moment I come to answer these questions! For the last few days, I would have said something like, "I am awareness". Today? Hmm, trickier. "I" can't be awareness. A thought is not awareness. A thought appears in awareness.

It feels like progress is being made, like this mind is slowly processing away in the background about this stuff. I don't associate self with the sensations behind the eyes anymore, nor as much with thoughts. There's something about intent and control that's still sticking. It's late here. I'll try tomorrow when I'm better rested to help clarify where this sense of self is still sticking.

Thanks,
Sean

[JonathanR]

Hi Sean

Thanks for asking. The short answer is: not today. I had some fear and low moods back when we were talking about nihilism and so on. The low mood came on very suddenly and seemed to leave not long after my last email

That's good. Just let me know if it returns.

At that time, it felt like I had it--had this glimpse where everything was the same but something seemed to drop away/relax inside for a little. It's not the first time this has happened. However, these glimpses don't last.

Good. Dropping away and /or relaxing is positive. Hoping for glimpses to 'last' is an expectation to drop, if possible. Glimpses may not follow any kind of expectation held by a 'me'. Nevertheless, this shouldn't cause dismay. Like thoughts, how could 'glimpses' be prevented from appearing? They may have a life of their own?

I have also had some spaciness, some moments where my mind stopped conceptualising on top of raw experience briefly, stopped labelling. Kinda frightening when it happens while you're driving, although it didn't seem to affect my ability to drive. I wasn't sure whether to mention it, because it didn't seem like a common experience to people here, and I didn't know what to make of it.

You are right to mention it but don't be too concerned. I haven't heard of anyone having an accident due to this, though what you describe is not uncommon. In the early days I was very taken by how vivid and alive everything is.

Okay, so university is a label. Body is a label. They are high-level concepts but they do not capture the experience or the thing itself.

How about 'self' then? Is that a label too?

"I" can't be awareness. A thought is not awareness. A thought appears in awareness.

You are not a thought. What makes you suppose that you are a thought?

We can speak conceptually as if there is stuff called 'awareness' in which thoughts appear. But is it like that? This differentiates, even if subtly, between awareness (as subject or 'me') and thought or sensation as object. What if that distinction is an idea or assumption about reality, about how it is supposed to work, whereas an investigation into immediate experience and thoughts appearing might reveal that everything simply appears, without any divisions?

You're doing really well Sean. Keep going.

All the best

Jon

[Dizzily]

Hi Jon,

Yes, there's fear again today. The fear sits in my gut and there's tension in my head. Not sure how specific I want to get about this, but it's a pre-existing fear that keeps coming up--a deep one related to some of the cognitive issues I've had courtesy of PTSD. That when I'm triggered, my brain doesn't act like a normal brain, doesn't learn or remember or function like it does at other times. Honestly, this fear about my cognition is a real doozy for me--the Granddaddy fear--that I'll never get past it, never get back to more normal functioning.

Hoping for glimpses to 'last' is an expectation to drop, if possible. Glimpses may not follow any kind of expectation held by a 'me'. Nevertheless, this shouldn't cause dismay. Like thoughts, how could 'glimpses' be prevented from appearing? They may have a life of their own?

And, yes, I still have an expectation arising, that this is going to help change some of these anxious thought spirals, these cognitive issues I sometimes get courtesy of PTSD. That I've heard of others who had PTSD who got no-self or awakened and it helped them greatly. This expectation is going to be hard to drop, because it's part of the reason I'm here doing this.

Yes, the glimpses are not of 'my' choosing, that's for sure. They come and go of their own volition.

How about 'self' then? Is that a label too?

Yes, self seems to label this recurrence of 'I'/'me'/'mine' thoughts, of autobiographical memories appearing, of sensations appearing. It's the correlation of senses that suggests an 'I' experiences them. But there's no 'I' to be found when investigating. Even intent seems to be gaining in clarity--the thoughts try to rationalise the choices made as or after they happen.

You are not a thought. What makes you suppose that you are a thought?

That is becoming clearer. Thoughts come and go. They seem to respond to stimuli such as these questions, or even other thoughts, but there's no control of them. A brief thought can't own a body or brain. It can't exist as a separate controller.

We can speak conceptually as if there is stuff called 'awareness' in which thoughts appear. But is it like that? This differentiates, even if subtly, between awareness (as subject or 'me') and thought or sensation as object. What if that distinction is an idea or assumption about reality, about how it is supposed to work, whereas an investigation into immediate experience and thoughts appearing might reveal that everything simply appears, without any divisions?

Ah, yes, I see. Awareness seems to be another label that requires dismantling. In the hearing, only the hearing; in the thinking, only the thinking, and so on. No subject, no object, only what is. That any thing can be aware presupposes something behind the senses, behind the thinking, but there is nothing behind the experience.

I have heard meditation teachers such as Rupert Spira mention the idea of this sensory experience being like a self-aware television screen. But that seems like a dead-end now. Hearing is not self-aware, nor sight, and so on. A thought is not self-aware; it simply is. The illusion comes strongest when one thought comments on a previous thought. But that's more like a learning mechanism than self-awareness.

I can't quite grasp it though. It's mind-bending. Only the experience--no one being aware of the experience--but how? Why any experience at all? Why not like a tree that simply is without consciousness? Am I going down a semantic dead-end here?

Thanks again for your patience, Jon.
Sean

[Dizzily]

Hi Jon,

Some more musings--more at a summary level of material we've mostly covered:

This search is becoming all-consuming. There's this constant tension in my head and, occasionally, fear in the stomach. My brain is feeling pretty confused right now--hard to think straight, feels like cognitive dissonance, or a bit like when something triggers my PTSD. My partner is worried about these sudden mood swings--from low to normal to low. So am I.

I look for a self in the sensations. I certainly can't find anything in the seeing, the hearing, the smelling, or the tasting. They just are happening. I used to associate something of a self with the physical sensations at the back of the eyes. But all I find are sensations as well.

So, if there is no me, who believes in a self? It's just patterns of thoughts that use this word 'I'. A thought cannot think. It comes and goes. Who can understand no-self then? Presumably no one. 'I' cannot get this, because that is just a thought. But surely this brain must realise it--neural networks must reshape. But that's another concept and doesn't help.

Thoughts happen--they are real just like sensations. But the content of those thoughts is only symbolic--they're not the things being referred to. They're not the thing itself, more like a pointer, an aid. But the thoughts becomes stories to get lost into as if they were real, and the stories get overlaid with emotions, such as fear. But emotions are really just more sensations.

But there's no me to be afraid, to have fear. Just the fear itself. Just the sensation. It's all impersonal, except for a belief that it isn't--the belief in self.

There's a sense of doubt that I'll ever get it. Frustration. Depression. I think I'm still a bit stuck on free will. Just because I can't locate the exact moment choices are made, does that mean I'm not making them? But then I think, well, wouldn't I just choose to get over all this unhappiness and seeking and just choose what I desire? Why don't I? Why is it that what I want to happen so often doesn't happen, and that other choices are made instead?

Anyway, that's where I'm at. The penny hasn't dropped yet, unfortunately.

Thanks again,
Sean

[Dizzily]

I feel like a champagne bottle that wants to pop but doesn't know how to!

[JonathanR]

Hey Sean

I'm late home tonight so will write tomorrow. Saturday. Thanks for posting.

Jon

[JonathanR]

Hi Sean

. My partner is worried about these sudden mood swings--from low to normal to low. So am I.

Im sending you a private message about this. Find the little envelope icon on the blue bar above and my message sent to you. Please be sure to read it.

llook for a self in the sensations. I certainly can't find anything in the seeing, the hearing, the smelling, or the tasting. They just are happening

Yes. Not to a separately existing unchanging 'self' as is commonly assumed. That one cannot be found 'experiencing experience'.

I now want you to look at EXPERIENCE its self. The entire range. Hearing, seeing, taste, touch, smell and thoughts appearing. Is there anything to suggest that any of it will somehow stop happening? Go for a walk in nature, maybe a park, with grass and trees, animals, people and so on. Or maybe by the sea. When you get there stand or sit quietly and just notice everything going on, everything alive, including body sensations and any thoughts or feelings. Now. In all this experience see if its possible to find the line or edge where 'you' end and 'everything else' begins.

Speak soon

Jon

[Dizzily]

Hi Jon,

Thanks for the private message. I've just replied to you.

I now want you to look at EXPERIENCE itself. The entire range. Hearing, seeing, taste, touch, smell and thoughts appearing. Is there anything to suggest that any of it will somehow stop happening? Go for a walk in nature, maybe a park, with grass and trees, animals, people and so on. Or maybe by the sea. When you get there stand or sit quietly and just notice everything going on, everything alive, including body sensations and any thoughts or feelings. Now. In all this experience see if it's possible to find the line or edge where 'you' end and 'everything else' begins.

Today got very busy, but I should have a good chance tomorrow morning to sit in nature for a bit. I'll do this and will report back to you afterwards.

Thanks,
Sean

[JonathanR]

Thanks Sean I'll await your reply here tgen

I have also sent another PM to you.

Love

Jon

[Dizzily]

Hi Jon,

I now want you to look at EXPERIENCE itself. The entire range. Hearing, seeing, taste, touch, smell and thoughts appearing. Is there anything to suggest that any of it will somehow stop happening?

No. Seeing even seems to happen with my eyes closed; it's just that what I see is mostly blackness, although even that is punctuated by shades of light when outside--a bit like noise from a digital camera sensor, actually. Hearing forever goes on, as does touch. With breathing comes smell. While taste is not always obvious when not eating, there's a sense that it always goes on, too.

Go for a walk in nature, maybe a park, with grass and trees, animals, people and so on. Or maybe by the sea. When you get there stand or sit quietly and just notice everything going on, everything alive, including body sensations and any thoughts or feelings. Now. In all this experience see if it's possible to find the line or edge where 'you' end and 'everything else' begins.

So, I sat outside in nature for a bit this morning. Where do 'I' end and where does 'everything else' begin? Tough to answer. With regards to hearing, I slapped my leg. If I ignore the sense of touch, there's no differentiation between that sound and other sounds.

With sight, if you ignore the overlay of conceptualisation--of leaves, of branches, of insects--this naming process that separates out the visual input, then what is left? Mostly colour, along with the parallax effect of shapes of colours with sharp edges in front of shapes of colours that are soft and blurred behind. With legs in front, these are simply more coloured shapes. It's all experience, but experience from a unique perspective. I can't say which parts of sight are me or anything else--it's all just a unified visual field.

There's still a sense that it's 'my' experience. Haven't quite got past the conceptualisation that 'I am awareness'.

Thanks,
Sean

[JonathanR]

Hi Sean,

thanks for answering the question about senses and for taking a, walk outside.

. There's still a sense that it's 'my' experience. Haven't quite got past the conceptualisation that 'I am awareness'.

Well then. Just notice awareness of anything. Is there a 'you' 'making awareness happen' or does awareness simply happen?

Is awareness an intrunsic aspect in all experience?

Or. Put another way. Have you ever had an experience without being aware of it? Or had an experience of not being aware?

What if awareness is always just happening but there are thoughts, assumptions about a 'me' that 'is awareness'?

Love

Jon

[Dizzily]

Hi Jon,

If something has changed over the past few days, it's a sense of my brain not being as busy as it was. It feels downright empty at times except for this remaining (and pre-existing) fear that something is wrong with it.

Just notice awareness of anything. Is there a 'you' 'making awareness happen' or does awareness simply happen?

No, there's definitely no me that makes awareness happen. It simply happens.

Is awareness an intrinsic aspect in all experience?

Awareness is experience. The only differentiator might be with regards to attention--which parts of awareness are paid attention to. But again, there doesn't seem to be a me in charge of awareness--more like a stimulus-response system.

Have you ever had an experience without being aware of it? Or had an experience of not being aware?

In a sense, sleep is non-aware experience, but it doesn't feel like an experience to me. Experientially, I don't know how I could have an experience without being aware of it. As for an experience of not being aware, I'd argue no. Attention can be placed elsewhere within awareness, or you're just lost in the moment, but awareness goes on.

What if awareness is always just happening but there are thoughts, assumptions about a 'me' that 'is awareness'?

Yes, it would seem that the 'I' virus hasn't quite been cracked yet. No, a thought can't own awareness. A thought is part of awareness. But to quote from my post last Friday:

Only the experience--no one being aware of the experience--but how? Why any experience at all? Why not like a tree that simply is without consciousness?

No-self argues that experience simply happens impersonally. That experience does not happen to something. It's true that I can't find the something experience happens to--it all just seems more awareness. Guess I'm still intellectually clasping at something like, 'experience happens to the brain'.

But that's just labelling and conceptualising. Experientially, experience just is. Awareness awares. But why this correlation of senses and thoughts unless there is a centre?

Thanks,
Sean

[JonathanR]

Hi Peter

. my brain not being as busy as it was. It feels downright empty at times

That's good but don't worry if it becomes busy again. This inquiry can still work.

. Awareness is experience. The only differentiator might be with regards to attention--which parts of awareness are paid attention to. But again, there doesn't seem to be a me in charge of awareness--more like a stimulus-response system.

Can there be parts of awareness?

Do you see that 'Awareness', like any other label, may not be describing a 'thing that exists' as such? That there is a concept or thought-story ABOUT 'awareness' and then potential identification with a mental impression?

By the way I'm not suggesting that 'awareness "doesn't exist". But it's worth challenging an idea of an entity that 'is aware' or 'is awareness'.

. Attention can be placed elsewhere within awareness

What does that mean? How?

. No-self argues that experience simply happens impersonally

Does the sea argue that it is wet?

. Guess I'm still intellectually clasping at something like, 'experience happens to the brain'.

We can explore that if you like?

. Experientially, experience just is. Awareness awares. But why this correlation of senses and thoughts unless there is a centre?

Centre in relation to what?

All best,
Jon

[Dizzily]

Hi Jon,

Can there be parts of awareness? Do you see that 'Awareness', like any other label, may not be describing a 'thing that exists' as such? That there is a concept or thought-story ABOUT 'awareness' and then potential identification with a mental impression?

Experientially, there is no seer--only the seen. No hearer--only the heard. No thinker--only the thoughts. When examining individual senses, no parts can be found. But what of the distinction between senses in the first place? Is it just my thinking that divides different sense impressions up into five categories plus cognising? They seem like different modalities. I'm not sure on this.

But I do see that 'awareness' is like a thought construct that divides the world into the source of awareness and that which is experienced. But there's no underlying sense of awareness, like having a sense of a movie screen which is being projected upon; there is only the movie--only experience.

So, yes, thought identifies with these experiences but is not those experiences, just more experience.

"Attention can be placed elsewhere within awareness." What does that mean? How?

It seems that at times some of these senses come to the fore, or even that say, a specific part of a sense, say the sensation in fingertips or a particular sound among many, stands out. The others senses still function but the experience of them becomes background.

"Guess I'm still intellectually clasping at something like, 'experience happens to the brain'." We can explore that if you like?

Yes, please. Intellectually, it would seem that this organism/brain is the witness. Experientially, no witness can be found. Regardless, it seems there's a duality I can't collapse. Feel like I've been stuck at this point for a while--experience just is, but how? Why? Why something rather than nothing?

"But why this correlation of senses and thoughts unless there is a centre?" Centre in relation to what?

Again, this relates to the above answers. So, here are five senses plus cognising--this experience. Intellectually, I'd say they're bundled because they're part of the same organism--that's the centre I'm talking about. Experientially, I can't say that. Here they are. They just are. The mind says me/other. But it all just is--no divisions exist between inside/outside--that's a thought construction on top.

It feels like you're trying to point out something really obvious, Jon, but this brain isn't getting it.

Thanks,
Sean

[JonathanR]

Sean

I will reply to your post later but first I must apologise for calling you 'Peter' in my last reply. Sorry about that.


Jon