West Cork Ireland- asking for Kay

[Clashnacrona]

How is it known that the sound is ‘running water’?

It isn’t known from actual experience its only known cos my thinking remembers the sound of running water from some other experience in the past and therefore labels it so. Otherwise it's just sound and I tried to focus purely on the sound and if I didn’t label it it was just purely sound experienced mainly in my left side/ear as the stream is off to the left of the house out of sight.

What is it that says the sound is ‘running water’?

Like I said above its a memory of that sound that links in with a catalogue in my memory/brain/mind that tells me ‘that's the sound of running water’.

What is the actual experience of hearing ‘running water’?

It is just sound and noise distinguishable from other sounds like the wind blowing through the trees, or the sound the cat made as it sidled up beside me, and rubbed itself off my legs. If I don’t go into my mind and memory bank for these sounds to label them then they would be all just different sounds with varying pitches and volume but still all just sound and noise.

[forgetmenot]

Hey Ado,

How is it known that the sound is ‘running water’?

It isn’t known from actual experience its only known cos my thinking remembers the sound of running water from some other experience in the past and therefore labels it so. Otherwise it's just sound and I tried to focus purely on the sound and if I didn’t label it it was just purely sound experienced mainly in my left side/ear as the stream is off to the left of the house out of sight.

Lovely…yes. It is only appearing thoughts that overlays the raw experience of sound with the story of it being running water.

What is it that says the sound is ‘running water’?

Like I said above its a memory of that sound that links in with a catalogue in my memory/brain/mind that tells me ‘that's the sound of running water’.

Look carefully at this:-
What is the AE of memory?
What is the AE of brain?
What is the AE of mind?

What is the actual experience of hearing ‘running water’?

It is just sound and noise distinguishable from other sounds like the wind blowing through the trees, or the sound the cat made as it sidled up beside me, and rubbed itself off my legs. If I don’t go into my mind and memory bank for these sounds to label them then they would be all just different sounds with varying pitches and volume but still all just sound and noise.

Without thought, how are sounds distinguishable from other sounds? In other words, without thought how is it known that sounds differ from one another?

Kay

[Clashnacrona]

What is the AE of memory

?

This question has me a little flummoxed. I don't know where to start. I think it is like going through the memory bank in my brain and remembering or possibly re-experiencing various memories like visiting Victoria Falls in Zambia when I was 7 yrs old and remembering the roar of the falling water or hearing the loud rush of water flowing over the weir in the river in Bandon near where I live after a couple of days of heavy rain….but they are still only memories and not actually experienced right now..

What is the actual experience of brain?

I don't know either... is it that my brain immediately tries to sort/attach the sound that is heard to a particular memory to make sense of it and then label it??

What is the actual experience of mind?

The mind immediately wants to label it and I found that I had to really concentrate and focus on just the sound as the process of labelling is totally ingrained and habitual. Or actually maybe it was more that I had to drop and let go of everything and just ‘be’ to hear the sound which I found incredibly hard to do and only got short snipped moments of being.

Without thought, how are sounds distinguishable from other sounds? In other words, without thought how is it known that sounds differ from one another?

The only way to distinguish sounds from other sounds is by the actual experience. I remember my eldest daughter as a 8 month old baby crawling over the the stereo and not realising what she was doing she pressed the on/off button and the stereo blasted to life at a very high volume and she burst into tears with fright… her actual experience in that moment was fear and her body reacted by shaking and crying. So if I'm sitting quietly trying to listen to the sound of running water and somebody was to sneak up and shout or clap their hands loudly my body would react by jumping with fright which would probably be followed by anger to cover over the fear. In that situation fear is my body reacting to a loud noise which is my actual experience of the loud noise isn't it? Is volume and pitch the only way to actually experience and distinguishe one sound from another? Does the body react to a soothing sound by relaxing cos it remembers that that particular sound was relaxing in the past or is the actual experience of the sound wave automatically tuning into something in the present moment that causes to body to feel relaxed. I'm a bit lost and feel like I'm trying to feel my way slowly in the dark.

[forgetmenot]

Hello Ado,

What is the AE of memory?

This question has me a little flummoxed. I don't know where to start.

If you look with AE...the answer is simple.
Can you find ‘memory’ in actual experience (AE)? Can you find ‘memory’ in sound, colour, smell, taste or sensation? Or is ‘memory’ a label/thought and is simply AE of thought?

What is the actual experience of brain?

I don't know either... is it that my brain immediately tries to sort/attach the sound that is heard to a particular memory to make sense of it and then label it??

Where in your direct/actual experience can you find a brain? What does the label ‘brain’ point to in AE? Does it point to colour, sound, sensation, taste, smell or thought?

What is the actual experience of mind?

The mind immediately wants to label it and I found that I had to really concentrate and focus on just the sound as the process of labelling is totally ingrained and habitual. Or actually maybe it was more that I had to drop and let go of everything and just ‘be’ to hear the sound which I found incredibly hard to do and only got short snipped moments of being.

Where in your direct/actual experience do you experience a ‘mind’? Can you find a mind in AE?? What does the label ‘mind’ point to in AE? Does it point to colour, sound, sensation, taste, smell or thought?

Without thought, how are sounds distinguishable from other sounds? In other words, without thought how is it known that sounds differ from one another?

The only way to distinguish sounds from other sounds is by the actual experience.

Does the sound that thought labels as 'running water' suggest in any way that it is running water...or is it thought that suggest this?
Does the sound 'running water' know anything about running water?
Does the sound 'highway traffic' suggest in any way that it is 'highway traffic' or is it thought that suggests this?
Does any sound suggest in any way that it is different?

Listen to the sounds once again. Without thought appearing naming/labelling the sounds….how is it known that sounds are different? Can it be known without thought? Is thought overlaying sound (no matter what sound is appearing) with stories that point to the idea that all sounds are different?

Kay

[Clashnacrona]

Hi Kay,
I'm working a long shift today and I'll do my best to answer your questions after work but if not ill get to them after work tomorrow.

Ado

[forgetmenot]

Thanks for letting me know

Kay

[Clashnacrona]

Hi Kay,

I just wanted to mention that after reading one of the testimonials on the LU website in which someone recommended reading other peoples threads in the archives and guiding area as a way of taking in as much as possible while going through the guiding process. I have been doing this for the last last week or so since you have started guiding me and while it is interesting I don’t think it has been very helpful overall. I had presumed this was okay as it was part of the LU website and not part of any other spiritual literature. Now I’m realising that I have been, as they say in 12 step programs ‘comparing and despairing’ in other words my mind/ego/false self has been using it as a tool to try and sabotage this process for me by telling me that ‘I won’t get liberated’ or else I’ll be judging my experience with others and if they don’t match up it’ll be a perfect excuse ‘me’ to bash the whole process in my own mind.
I know these are all just fears manifesting in different ways but anyhow I won’t be reading any more threads from now on and will be just giving all my attention to giving honest answers to your questions trusting that my experience will be unique to me and it is pointless comparing to others.
I did sit outside my house on a bench when I arrived home from work this evening and did the listening exercise again with the focus on the ‘sound of running water’. I also a couple of times in work when I was alone take a couple of minutes to listen to the sounds around me to see if I could do it without letting the interfering commentary of my mind get in the way. Both in work and listening to the running water when I got home showed me that my experience was just hearing and nothing else until the mind jumped in again to start labelling and naming sound and attaching stories to them.

Can you find ‘memory’ in actual experience (AE)? Can you find ‘memory’ in sound, colour, smell, taste or sensation? Or is ‘memory’ a label/thought and is simply AE of thought?

It is an actual experience of thought cos in the moment all there seems to be is hearing.

Where in your direct/actual experience can you find a brain? What does the label ‘brain’ point to in AE? Does it point to colour, sound, sensation, taste, smell or thought?

The label brain doesn’t point to anything in actual experience. All there is is hearing.

Where in your direct/actual experience do you experience a ‘mind’? Can you find a mind in AE?? What does the label ‘mind’ point to in AE? Does it point to colour, sound, sensation, taste, smell or thought?

There is just hearing in actual experience and no mind.

Does the sound that thought labels as 'running water' suggest in any way that it is running water...or is it thought that suggest this?

It is just thought that suggests this.

Does the sound 'running water' know anything about running water?

No

Does the sound 'highway traffic' suggest in any way that it is 'highway traffic' or is it thought that suggests this?

It is thought that suggests this.

Does any sound suggest in any way that it is different?

I do have a little niggling doubt that maybe volume/pitch/tone/texture suggests that sounds differ from each other or is that just another thought interpreting or conceptualizing the sounds. I’m not sure about this.

Listen to the sounds once again. Without thought appearing naming/labeling the sounds….how is it known that sounds are different? Can it be known without thought? Is thought overlaying sound (no matter what sound is appearing) with stories that point to the idea that all sounds are different?

If sound was like the sea then the sea can manifest itself in different ways with big waves small waves strong currents riptides but essentially it is all still the sea and it is obviously thought of memory that labels waves currents etc... Is sound the same in that it can manifest in different forms but is it still just sound.
All that being said if I imagine that I’m hearing sounds for the first time ever I wouldn’t even know that there is such a thing or possibility as labeling so therefore all sound would be just sound and nothing else. Without labeling and thought stories how do I know it is anything but just sound... it just is.

[forgetmenot]

Hi Ado,

I know these are all just fears manifesting in different ways but anyhow I won’t be reading any more threads from now on and will be just giving all my attention to giving honest answers to your questions trusting that my experience will be unique to me and it is pointless comparing to others.

That is why I ask in the housekeeping guidelines that ALL reading be suspended…and that included reading of other threads, expressly due to the reasons you cited.

Both in work and listening to the running water when I got home showed me that my experience was just hearing and nothing else until the mind jumped in again to start labelling and naming sound and attaching stories to them

There is no one ‘hearing’ sound that = separation. All there is, is sound which thought then labels and says “I am hearing”.

Can you find ‘memory’ in actual experience (AE)? Can you find ‘memory’ in sound, colour, smell, taste or sensation? Or is ‘memory’ a label/thought and is simply AE of thought?

It is an actual experience of thought cos in the moment all there seems to be is hearing.

Yes, exactly. There is no actual experience of ‘memory’ other than as thought. Does colour have a memory, does sound, taste, sensation or smell? Even thought does not have a memory…it is not an entity that is aware. We will be looking at memory later on in the guiding. Thought either points to AE or points to thoughts about thoughts.AE.

Where in your direct/actual experience can you find a brain? What does the label ‘brain’ point to in AE? Does it point to colour, sound, sensation, taste, smell or thought?

The label brain doesn’t point to anything in actual experience. All there is is hearing.

The label ‘brain’ points to the AE of thought. If you look now, can you find a ‘brain’ in your direct/actual experience or only thoughts ABOUT a brain?

Where in your direct/actual experience do you experience a ‘mind’? Can you find a mind in AE?? What does the label ‘mind’ point to in AE? Does it point to colour, sound, sensation, taste, smell or thought?

There is just hearing in actual experience and no mind.

There is no mind beyond thoughts. ‘Mind” is AE of thought and not AE of a mind. Where in colour, sound, smell, taste, sensation or thought can you find an ACTUAL mind?

Does the sound that thought labels as 'running water' suggest in any way that it is running water...or is it thought that suggest this?

It is just thought that suggests this.

Yes, it is just an arising thought that suggests the sound has a name.

Does any sound suggest in any way that it is different?

I do have a little niggling doubt that maybe volume/pitch/tone/texture suggests that sounds differ from each other or is that just another thought interpreting or conceptualizing the sounds. I’m not sure about this.

Have a LOOK. Where in AE do you find volume/pitch/tone/texture? Can you find these qualities in the sound itself, in colour, taste, smell or sensation. Or is it the AE of thought = thought describing the AE of sound?

How would you describe, for example, the sound labelled as ‘dog barking’ to someone who is deaf?

Listen to the sounds once again. Without thought appearing naming/labeling the sounds….how is it known that sounds are different? Can it be known without thought? Is thought overlaying sound (no matter what sound is appearing) with stories that point to the idea that all sounds are different?

If sound was like the sea then the sea can manifest itself in different ways with big waves small waves strong currents riptides but essentially it is all still the sea and it is obviously thought of memory that labels waves currents etc...

No such thing as memory. There is no past, present or future. Time is a concept as is cause and effect.

Is sound the same in that it can manifest in different forms but is it still just sound.

All that being said if I imagine that I’m hearing sounds for the first time ever I wouldn’t even know that there is such a thing or possibility as labeling so therefore all sound would be just sound and nothing else. Without labeling and thought stories how do I know it is anything but just sound... it just is.

Yes…nice :) All there is, is the raw experience of what IS….the rest is thought.

Kay

[Clashnacrona]

Hi Kay,

Yes I can see clearly now why even reading others peoples threads on LU is not helpful to this work. Thank you for your patience and tolerance.I’m very grateful for your time and guidance.

The label ‘brain’ points to the AE of thought. If you look now, can you find a ‘brain’ in your direct/actual experience or only thoughts ABOUT a brain?

It is only thoughts about a brain there is nothing that I can feel touch taste that points to a brain.

There is no mind beyond thoughts. ‘Mind” is AE of thought and not AE of a mind. Where in colour, sound, smell, taste, sensation or thought can you find an ACTUAL mind?

Yes I agree there is no mind beyond the thoughts I habitually have about a mind.

Have a LOOK. Where in AE do you find volume/pitch/tone/texture? Can you find these qualities in the sound itself, in colour, taste, smell or sensation. Or is it the AE of thought = thought describing the AE of sound?

I have been thinking a lot about this which probably is defeating the purpose of the exercise but I still finding it hard to accept this. For example if I am listening to music a bit too loudly with headphones and I can feel slight pain(sensation) in my ear say during a guitar solo that has some particularly high notes, is that pain actual experience of the sound being too loud and therefore that part of the guitar solo being a different sound to the rest of the instruments in the piece. Or is that the AE of thought telling me that guitar solo had some really high notes. So going back to the example of that piece of music being played to a baby they would just hear sound and haven’t been conditioned to label the sounds as different instruments and therefore its just sound plain and simple whatever the volume.

How would you describe, for example, the sound labelled as ‘dog barking’ to someone who is deaf?

You couldn’t because they have absolutely no experience of any sound and therefore have no memory bank of ‘sounds to pull from. The best they could do is possibly feel the vibration of sound in a sensual way as they watched a dark barking in front of them which could connect for them the visual with the feeling vibration. Evelyn Glennie is a well known percussionist with the London Philharmonic Orchestra and she is tone deaf. She senses the music and percussion all through the vibrations the different instruments make but it would be still impossible to explain the 'sound' of the different instruments to her either.

Regards

Ado

[forgetmenot]

Hello Ado,

Have a LOOK. Where in AE do you find volume/pitch/tone/texture? Can you find these qualities in the sound itself, in colour, taste, smell or sensation. Or is it the AE of thought = thought describing the AE of sound?

I have been thinking a lot about this which probably is defeating the purpose of the exercise but I still finding it hard to accept this. For example if I am listening to music a bit too loudly with headphones and I can feel slight pain(sensation) in my ear say during a guitar solo that has some particularly high notes, is that pain actual experience of the sound being too loud and therefore that part of the guitar solo being a different sound to the rest of the instruments in the piece.

Thinking won't get you anywhere. You have to look at everything with AE...what is in your direct/actual experience. Without thought, how is it known that the sound has “particularly high notes” and that it is sound that is creating the sensation labelled as ‘pain’?

For something to cause something in something else (cause and effect) points to subject/object split ie separation and also to the concept of time. In other words this is pointing to the idea that there is an experience of an actual listener/hearer and an experience of sound.

Where does ‘hearing’ end and the sound begin? Can a dividing line between ‘hearing’ and sound be found?

Or is that the AE of thought telling me that guitar solo had some really high notes. So going back to the example of that piece of music being played to a baby they would just hear sound and haven’t been conditioned to label the sounds as different instruments and therefore its just sound plain and simple whatever the volume.

Yes. Although in the dream the baby might then cry because of the ‘pain’ it creates. But if you break all of that down into AE….you can see the how that story overlays AE. We are not denying appearances…but are going to be seeing that every ‘thing’ is ‘made of’ the same substance and that there is no separation. In the story of the dream it seems that a character turns down the music because it is causing pain in the ears. And there is nothing wrong with stories...because you are aware of all stories that appear about AE.

How would you describe, for example, the sound labelled as ‘dog barking’ to someone who is deaf?

You couldn’t because they have absolutely no experience of any sound and therefore have no memory bank of ‘sounds to pull from.

That long paragraph you wrote is story! I was asking you how would you describe sound labelled as ‘dog barking’ to someone who is deaf. And since it can’t be done….what does that point to? Simply that experience which is seemingly appearing as what thought labels as sound is indescribable. What IS/experience/THIS is, is indescribable. It is thought that overlays experience with descriptions, including the label ‘sound’.

Notice a sound in the distance. It could be anything – water running, the wind, a dog barking, a train. Let's stay with dog barking.

So it seems like a person is listening to a dog...

Here is a partial list of the beliefs involved

1) there is a dog
2) the dog is some distance away from you
3) you (a person) is listening to the sound
3) using a pair of ears...
4) ...and a brain...
5) ...inside your head.

But notice that all that is ACTUALLY present is the sound.

Everything else is just story - the dog, the distance, the person, the ears, the brain, the listening, and the head.

There's just a sound appearing in the dream (and a fancy story to go along with it).
Try that with other sounds and see how you get on.

Kay

[Clashnacrona]

Hi Kay,

Where does ‘hearing’ end and the sound begin? Can a dividing line between ‘hearing’ and sound be found?

I sat in my dining room and opened the windows on both sides of the room and sat quietly for about 20 mins. As the mind settled and stopped labelling the sounds like traffic, birdsong, wind and so on or rather I stopped engaging with the the mind commentary there was just sound. There was no distinction between a hearing and sound there was just sound. When that happened everything seemed really peaceful and restful cos there was no energy wasted on ‘trying to figure out label the different sounds’. Of course cos I’m only a beginner at identifying actual experience of sound I was only getting brief moments where it was just sound but I suppose that's ok hopefully those moments will lengthen as this process continues.

There's just a sound appearing in the dream (and a fancy story to go along with it).
Try that with other sounds and see how you get on.

Yes I see that clearly now as the above paragraph describes.

Regards

Ado

[forgetmenot]

Hey Ado,

Where does ‘hearing’ end and the sound begin? Can a dividing line between ‘hearing’ and sound be found?

I sat in my dining room and opened the windows on both sides of the room and sat quietly for about 20 mins. As the mind settled and stopped labelling the sounds like traffic, birdsong, wind and so on or rather I stopped engaging with the the mind commentary there was just sound. There was no distinction between a hearing and sound there was just sound. When that happened everything seemed really peaceful and restful cos there was no energy wasted on ‘trying to figure out label the different sounds’. Of course cos I’m only a beginner at identifying actual experience of sound I was only getting brief moments where it was just sound but I suppose that's ok hopefully those moments will lengthen as this process continues.

Love the time you put into looking at this….terrific!

Let’s do an exercise just to solidify your seeing of how there is no hearer AND sound.

Sit quietly and take in a couple of deep breaths to settle the dust. Now listen to the sounds in the room where you are, or sounds from outside. Choose one sound and focus on that one sound.

1) In 'hearing' can anything be found other than sound?
2) Can what is doing the hearing be found? Or is there only sound?
3) Can an 'I', a 'body’, a ‘person' be found? Or are there only thoughts about these, and thoughts about a ‘something’ that is hearing sound?

Where does sound stop and the ‘hearing’ of it begin?
Can a 'hearer' ever be found in sound? Or is there simply sound?

Is that confirmable experientially?
If no INHERENT HEARER is found . . . so would anything suggested as the hearer be anything other than speculation / ideas / beliefs / thoughts etc?

Kay

[Clashnacrona]

Hi Kay,

I did the same exercise again this afternoon where I sat down in my dining room opened both windows and after taking a few deep breaths I just sat still. The sound I focused on was the traffic from the road in the distance. Because the body was tired I actually fell asleep in the middle of the exercise and I did notice the at that point just before sleep took over was when the realisation that it is just sound was the most clear probably because the thoughts and mind commentary just weren’t there.

1) In 'hearing' can anything be found other than sound?

There is nothing but sound once the thoughts and beliefs about what is being heard are ignored.

2) Can what is doing the hearing be found? Or is there only sound?

No there is only sound and nothing can be found ‘doing’ the hearing.

3) Can an 'I', a 'body’, a ‘person' be found? Or are there only thoughts about these, and thoughts about a ‘something’ that is hearing sound?

There are definitely only thoughts about a ‘person’ or ‘body’ hearing the sound but I must admit those thoughts can be very convincing and ‘I’ am finding it hard to let go of them. But based purely on the actual experience of sound when the thoughts aren’t believed there is no evidence of anybody doing the hearing.

Where does sound stop and the ‘hearing’ of it begin?
Can a 'hearer' ever be found in sound? Or is there simply sound?

Sound is always just there it is only when ‘I’ believe in my thinking that a hearer appears. There is no hearer in sound and there is only just sound.

Is that confirmable experientially?

Yes

If no INHERENT HEARER is found . . . so would anything suggested as the hearer be anything other than speculation / ideas / beliefs / thoughts etc?

There is no inherent hearer to be found other than the speculation of ideas/beliefs/thoughts but I’m finding that I’m having resistance to the idea that thoughts are meaningless and useless and are based on fabrication. The belief and faith I seem to have in my thinking seems to be deeply ingrained and I’m finding it hard to let go of. Maybe this is kind of resistance is a normal part of this unearthing process and is probably the ‘self’ fighting to stay alive. I’d love to hear what you have to say about it.

Thanks again for your questions.

All the best

Ado

[forgetmenot]

Hello Ado,

3) Can an 'I', a 'body’, a ‘person' be found? Or are there only thoughts about these, and thoughts about a ‘something’ that is hearing sound?

There are definitely only thoughts about a ‘person’ or ‘body’ hearing the sound but I must admit those thoughts can be very convincing and ‘I’ am finding it hard to let go of them. But based purely on the actual experience of sound when the thoughts aren’t believed there is no evidence of anybody doing the hearing.

Can you hold onto or let go of sound? If not, then why would you be able to hold onto or let go of thought?

What exactly is it that is letting go of those thoughts?

There is no inherent hearer to be found other than the speculation of ideas/beliefs/thoughts but I’m finding that I’m having resistance to the idea that thoughts are meaningless and useless and are based on fabrication. The belief and faith I seem to have in my thinking seems to be deeply ingrained and I’m finding it hard to let go of. Maybe this is kind of resistance is a normal part of this unearthing process and is probably the ‘self’ fighting to stay alive. I’d love to hear what you have to say about it.

Just look now...a thought can be found, but can a thinker of thought be found?
Can an “I” be found in thought itself?

Sound can be found, but can a hearer of sounds be found?
Can an “I” be found in sound itself?

Colour can be found, but can a see-er of colour be found?
Can an “I” be found in colour itself?

Sensation can be found, but can a feeler of sensation be found?
Can an “I” be found in sensation itself?

Smell can be found, but can a smeller of smell be found?
Can an “I” be found in smell itself?

Taste can be found, but can a taster of taste be found?
Can an “I” be found in taste itself?

So can anyone/anything be found that has “belief and faith” in thoughts?

Experience can be found, but can an experiencer of experience be found?
It's as simple as that. Just look and see what is actually present - and what is only imaginary.

Kay

[Clashnacrona]

Hi Kay,

Can you hold onto or let go of sound? If not, then why would you be able to hold onto or let go of thought?

No I can’t let go or hold onto sound cos it's just there. So yes I can see now that thoughts just come and go of their own accord end of story.

What exactly is it that is letting go of those thoughts?

There’s no letting go of thoughts its an illusion of a self that ‘thinks’ its in control of thinking and creating thoughts.

Just look now...a thought can be found, but can a thinker of thought be found?
Can an “I” be found in thought itself?

When I try to find a ‘thinker’ of thoughts there is mainly just silence which is then interrupted by thoughts arising but nobody no ‘I’ can be found in thought itself.

Sound can be found, but can a hearer of sounds be found?
Can an “I” be found in sound itself?

No hearer is found and there is no ‘I’ to be found in sound itself.

Colour can be found, but can a see-er of colour be found?
Can an “I” be found in colour itself?

There is no see-er to be found in colour and there is no ‘I’ to be found in colour itself. It is only thought that creates the illusion of a see-er and an ‘I’.

Sensation can be found, but can a feeler of sensation be found?
Can an “I” be found in sensation itself?

There is no feeler of sensation or no ‘I’ to be found in sensation itself.

Smell can be found, but can a smeller of smell be found?
Can an “I” be found in smell itself?

There is simply just smell with no smeller or ‘I’ to be found in smell itself.

Taste can be found, but can a taster of taste be found?
Can an “I” be found in taste itself?

Again without thought commentary there is simply just taste with no taster or no ‘I’ to be found in taste itself.

So can anyone/anything be found that has “belief and faith” in thoughts?

No since it is only thoughts that tells me there is ‘someone’ there to be found and thoughts come and go and have no basis in actual experience there isn’t anyone or anything to be found that has belief and faith in thoughts.

Experience can be found, but can an experiencer of experience be found?
It's as simple as that. Just look and see what is actually present - and what is only imaginary.

What is actually present is just experience with no experiencer. Thank you so much for helping me clarify all this. Going on actual experience is such simple almost childlike way to uncover the truth and yet it can seem so easy to pass it by most of the time.