See it much of the time but not always

[forgetmenot]

Hello Zee,

Yes it is…however, thought is still pointing to actual experience as it is appearing in the moment and not to fantasy It’s just a simple way of distinguishing what is appearing to imagination.

That’s a good point. With feeling the warmth of the outside air and seeing the sun rising, there could also be thoughts “what a glorious day” or “what a spectacular sunrise” and those thoughts would be timebound but near-realtime pointing to AE. On the other hand, the skies could be grey and coffee just dropped with the thought arising “what a horrible day”.

Both “glorious day” and “horrible day” are content of thought pointing to near-realtime unfolding but stories nonetheless, but “horrible day” maybe is more in the realm of imagination because it denotes resistance of some sort?

Thought only points to actual experience if the colours labelled as “sun rising” is happening in that moment. If not then it is simply imagination/fantasy.

Whether or not the day is a glorious day or a horrible day is just thoughts about what is appearing and are meaningless…superfluous. It is thought trying to describe actual experience...and the thought itself is actual experience, but in this case of glorious or horrible....is thought pointing to AE other than thought?

The sports and silent movie exercise was for you to become of everything you think you are thinking. You are aware of the first thoughts, but it seems that you are not aware of follow on thoughts or thoughts that seem to be day to day commentary. In other words, I am not sure if you are seeing all thoughts that are labelled as ‘thinking’. Even with the silent movie…there is usually thoughts about the character, what they are doing ie there is an interpretation going on…a commentary. Even when I watch the movie…I can’t stop the commentary that is going on about what is happening.

So, I would like you to watch it again and become aware of the thoughts that are interpreting what is happening in the movie.

Kay

[Zee]

Whether or not the day is a glorious day or a horrible day is just thoughts about what is appearing and are meaningless…superfluous.

Yes

It is thought trying to describe actual experience...and the thought itself is actual experience, but in this case of glorious or horrible....is thought pointing to AE other than thought?

No, not in the case of glorious or horrible. Those adjectives aren’t appearing except in thought content. There’s no glorious or horrible findable as an actuality or direct happening.

Even with the silent movie…there is usually thoughts about the character, what they are doing ie there is an interpretation going on…a commentary. Even when I watch the movie…I can’t stop the commentary that is going on about what is happening.

Not here, sorry. Seen it four times now and there’s no concern about the characters or the plot. It’s extremely enjoyable, just the cinematography itself without a story. Still similar thoughts arising “cool special effects” and that applies also to the transparent looking sheet and also the tea service. In addition to “cool special effects” there were thoughts about “how do they do the tea service?” “Does someone move the spoons and other tableware bit by bit like claymation” “Wow, what a tremendous amount of work. Looks great!”. Oh, and that guy in the window is scary every time.

[forgetmenot]

Hi Zee,

Not here, sorry. Seen it four times now and there’s no concern about the characters or the plot. It’s extremely enjoyable, just the cinematography itself without a story. Still similar thoughts arising “cool special effects” and that applies also to the transparent looking sheet and also the tea service. In addition to “cool special effects” there were thoughts about “how do they do the tea service?” “Does someone move the spoons and other tableware bit by bit like claymation” “Wow, what a tremendous amount of work. Looks great!”. Oh, and that guy in the window is scary every time.

Great...so yes, you are aware of the commentary.

Okay, so let's move onto the idea of control, choices and decision making.

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire…

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Kay

[Zee]

How is the movement controlled?

There's no controller found in the palm turning. Palm changed position up and down without any efforting or even a thought character of any sort pretending to orchestrate the movement. Stuff like this is cool to notice even in the course of daily living. Have an outfit with many zippers and buttons. Body leaned at just the right time while hands performed intricate maneuvers to fasten everything correctly without a controller involved at all. There's no way a thought character can even pretend to keep up with that many movements happening simultaneously. Typing on the computer is another perfect example. Fast, precise movements occur and then a sentence appears on the screen.

Does a thought control it?

No

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No, yet the palm changes direction despite there being no controller

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

The decision isn't made by anyone. Reading about an exercise happened and the palm started turning. No character or group of thoughts determined how fast or how slow to turn the palm up and down or how many times it would happen or if it would happen at all.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Nowhere to be found

[forgetmenot]

Hey Zee,

How is the movement controlled?

There's no controller found in the palm turning. Palm changed position up and down without any efforting or even a thought character of any sort pretending to orchestrate the movement. Stuff like this is cool to notice even in the course of daily living. Have an outfit with many zippers and buttons. Body leaned at just the right time while hands performed intricate maneuvers to fasten everything correctly without a controller involved at all. There's no way a thought character can even pretend to keep up with that many movements happening simultaneously. Typing on the computer is another perfect example. Fast, precise movements occur and then a sentence appears on the screen.

Fantastic observations! If you look at the simple act of walking and all that needs to happen just to walk. It would take an age if we needed a thought for each movement just to take one step!

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No, yet the palm changes direction despite there being no controller

Lovely…yes, it is simply happening.

Okay, so the aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

You need to get any two different drinks you like for this exercise, ie coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc. One will be drink A the other will be drink B

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
2. Count to 5.
3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:
Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

Kay

[Zee]

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities?

No

Or did they kind of appear by themselves?

Yes. One of the qualities of “B” was that it makes one comfortable. Not even an alcoholic beverage or coffee, so not sure what being comfortable was all about. Definitely appeared by itself.

If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

All just popped up

Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?

No

Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

No

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’?

No, it seemed that there were more thoughts arising about A, but B was chosen!

Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’?

No

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

No, a feeling doesn’t know anything and cannot choose.

[forgetmenot]

Hey Zee,

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’?

No, it seemed that there were more thoughts arising about A, but B was chosen!

The following is an interesting clip on how scientists have revealed that decisions are made seconds before we become aware of them.

https://vimeo.com/90101368

Okay, so we have looked at the idea of a controller, decider and chooser. Now let’s look at the idea of a doer/doership.

We’ll do a little exercise on this topic. It has to do with the sense of seeing.

Take a few relaxed breaths to let the dust settle for a while, and then:
Look on your right.
Then look on your left.
Finally, bring your head back to centre, close your eyes and look in front.

Okay, so when you look on the right, the view on the right is seen (whatever that is).
When you look on the left, the view on the left is seen (whatever that is).
And then, when you look in front of you with eyes closed, the view in front is seen (ie ‘black space’).

So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your eyes. The question is, can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen?

Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?

Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?

Can you turn off seeing?

What did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?

If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

Kay

[Zee]

The following is an interesting clip on how scientists have revealed that decisions are made seconds before we become aware of them.
vimeo/90101368

That’s a great video if the experiment & results are just focused on and not the explanations because their explanations, as impressive as they may sound, have the idea of a “me” fully entrenched. They need Ilona, Kay, or somebody else from LU to interpret the results and the implications.

So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your eyes. The question is, can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen?

Can’t turn off seeing. Love this exercise. Really simple like the palm turning but effective and revealing.

Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?

No

Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?

No

Can you turn off seeing?

No

What did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?

No

If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

Nothing, because there isn’t a chooser. There isn’t even choosing really because what is labelled as an activity of choosing can be broken down into simpler terms of what is actually given in AE. “Choosing” is still an interpretation of AE and is thought content. If thought content isn’t taken on-board as a belief, nothing is a problem or a puzzle to be solved.

[forgetmenot]

Hey Zee,

That’s a great video if the experiment & results are just focused on and not the explanations because their explanations, as impressive as they may sound, have the idea of a “me” fully entrenched. They need Ilona, Kay, or somebody else from LU to interpret the results and the implications.

Haha!

So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your eyes. The question is, can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen?

Can’t turn off seeing. Love this exercise. Really simple like the palm turning but effective and revealing.

It’s all very simple, isn’t it! :)

If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

Nothing, because there isn’t a chooser. There isn’t even choosing really because what is labelled as an activity of choosing can be broken down into simpler terms of what is actually given in AE. “Choosing” is still an interpretation of AE and is thought content. If thought content isn’t taken on-board as a belief, nothing is a problem or a puzzle to be solved.

Lovely, yes! So, it has been seen that there is no thinker, controller, decider, chooser or doer. So is there anyone that is responsible for anything that appears or happens?

Okay, so let’s have a look at the body.
Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc.) before replying.

Kay

[Zee]

It’s all very simple, isn’t it! :)

Yes, too simple. It doesn’t even require special looking. Just normal looking without preconceived notions.

Lovely, yes! So, it has been seen that there is no thinker, controller, decider, chooser or doer. So is there anyone that is responsible for anything that appears or happens?

No

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:
Can it be known how tall the body is?

No

Does the body have a weight or volume?

No

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

No

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?

No

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

No

Is there an inside or an outside?

No

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?

Shapes, colors, sensations, thoughts arising (thought content about “body”)

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

There is no body just like in earlier exercises there is no apple.
There is ideation about body and bodily boundaries but no body is found in AE.
There is only shaping, coloring, sensing

[forgetmenot]

Hi Zee,

It’s all very simple, isn’t it! :)

Yes, too simple. It doesn’t even require special looking. Just normal looking without preconceived notions.

Exactly!

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?

Shapes, colors, sensations, thoughts arising (thought content about “body”)

The word/label 'body' actually refers to AE of thought and not a body. Thought implies that colour, sensations are a body, but when you look, does colour or sensation know anything about a body?

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

There is no body just like in earlier exercises there is no apple.
There is ideation about body and bodily boundaries but no body is found in AE.
There is only shaping, coloring, sensing

The actual experience of the body is thought.

The label 'body' is AE of thought and not AE of a body
Sensation labelled as 'body' is AE of sensation and not AE of a body
Image labelled as 'body' is AE of colour and not AE of a body
Thought ABOUT a body are content of thought and are AE of thought and not of a body
So what is known is label + sensation + colour + thoughts. But is a body is not actually known.

Here is an even deeper investigation of the body. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen. Repeat the exercise several times.

Stand in front of a bigger mirror.

(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?


(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’?
Or only thoughts suggest it?

(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.

Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?
Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?
Or are there only colours and shapes?

(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.

Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).

Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

(8) Start to walk slowly.

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

Kay

[Zee]

Thought implies that colour, sensations are a body, but when you look, does colour or sensation know anything about a body?

No

Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

No connection

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

No

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’?
Or only thoughts suggest it?

No, but in this exercise of looking at the hand directly, there were thoughts about a connection between hand movement and sensation, especially when a twisting or bending movement happened. But just thoughts.

Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?

No

Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?

No

Or are there only colours and shapes?

Just colors and shapes

Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

There is no knowledge about “there must be legs” just going by the image. Only thought content suggesting the image is truncated in some way, but none of that conceptualization is in the image itself.

Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

Only sensations

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?

Only sensations

Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?

No

Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?

Only thoughts about walking, but mostly just AE of sensation

Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?

Only thoughts

Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

No

Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

Many sensations without location and no thought about “room” except when reading the question. Many sensations, colors, and shapes.

[forgetmenot]

Hey Zee,

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

No, but in this exercise of looking at the hand directly, there were thoughts about a connection between hand movement and sensation, especially when a twisting or bending movement happened. But just thoughts.

Okay…so let’s look at this a little deeper.

Normally we believe that sensation is coming from sight - the object seen. In this example, the object being the ‘hand’.

1. Close the eyes and hold up one hand. Pay attention only to the felt sensation ‘of the hand’.
2. Open the eyes, and now observe the hand by looking only.
3. While looking at the hand, pay attention to the felt sensations.

Repeat 1 to 3 as many times as needed and investigate…

Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?

Do they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?

Is there any link between the sensation and the sight, meaning that the sensation is ‘coming from’ the sight (labelled as ‘hand’) or only thought and mental constructs link them?

Kay

[Zee]

Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?

Yes, neither is coming from or contained by the other.

Do they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?

No hierarchy or link between them. They appear equally. Thoughts arising about the sensation being “stronger” only because a lot of chores done yesterday and sensations seem pronounced, but it’s only a story that the sensation is stronger than the seeing. In direct experience, there is no hierarchy.

Is there any link between the sensation and the sight, meaning that the sensation is ‘coming from’ the sight (labelled as ‘hand’) or only thought and mental constructs link them?

Only thoughts and mental constructs link them.

[forgetmenot]

Hello Zee,

Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?

Yes, neither is coming from or contained by the other.

This clip is brilliant at showing this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dphlhmt ... e=youtu.be

Do they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?

No hierarchy or link between them. They appear equally. Thoughts arising about the sensation being “stronger” only because a lot of chores done yesterday and sensations seem pronounced, but it’s only a story that the sensation is stronger than the seeing. In direct experience, there is no hierarchy.

Did you look to see if you find anyone actually doing chores? When doing chores….break down it down to actual experience and see what is actually appearing?

Is there a difference between experience labelled as ‘colour’ AND experience labelled as ‘sensation’? What makes one "experience" more "experienced" (real or intimate or close) than another experience?

Kay