SelfingStrong

[EMWBerry]

Just a quick update here. Was just speaking with someone and they said something about having too much pride and it sounded funny actually. I was thinking, what is pride actually besides a thought? It's not a real thing and how would you even have it? Is it attache somewhere?? I can see that it's not real. But I have a much harder time seeing it with fear.

[DrWilko]

Hi Lisa,

Some fantastic looking here.

I tried this earlier today. I get anxious when driving on the highway sometimes. I felt a burning sensation in my belly although when I really focused on it, it was very hard to say exactly where it was, or if it was even in the body. It was just there. The sensation itself does not know fear. But then the thoughts come in like this is dangerous, what if i can't do this and it's difficult to answer that last question is there fear of anything. It feels like there is fear of an imagined scenario which is a thought. I can see that fear is a story. So bodily sensations accompanied by thoughts about thought. This is frustrating because it feels real. Sorry, I'm not sure if I'm getting it.

A couple of things: firstly, let's maintain our focus here. We are looking at fear/resistance to seeing that there is no self. Though it is certainly interesting that there is a story that connects it to the possibility of death on the highway!

And do not worry about "getting it" - there is no one to get anything. I know it's hard to accept at this stage, but you are not in control! A process has been entered into - as much as possible relax into it and let it unfold. Even when, perhaps especially when, there is fear and resistance. Seeing will happen when it happens, and it will be known when it does, without any trying to get anything.

Keep up the good work Lisa, and answer the last questions in bold in my previous post when you can.

All good wishes,

Dave

[EMWBerry]

Hi Dave,

A couple of things: firstly, let's maintain our focus here. We are looking at fear/resistance to seeing that there is no self. Though it is certainly interesting that there is a story that connects it to the possibility of death on the highway!

OK, got it.

Yikes! Sorry, I forgot the last question.

Close your eyes. Tune in to sensation for a while. Any sensation of contact with chair, atmosphere on skin, whatever. Is a "witness" whether it's in the head or anywhere, necessary to experience sensations? Or are sensations known without this witness?

There is no witness necessary to experience sensation. They just happen on there own. But it feels like something is aware of sensations.

Thank you!
Lisa

[DrWilko]

Hi Lisa,

No hearing and hearer, just hearing. (I found it easier to recognize this with hearing as opposed to seeing.) Definitely no boundary between them. Thought it was identifies the sounds or labels them as things

Fantastic!

There is nothing about tightness itself that says resistance. It is just a sensation. I think I have felt that same sensation before with "excitement'.

Yes - so what does that suggest about this sensation, and the thought stories? Where/how does this idea that it is "fear" or "excitement" arise? Explore this a bit.

I definitely get hung up here and I'm not sure if I'm being dense but I'm not 100% convinced that the story isn't true.

Sensation is real. Thought is real. However is the story experience of anything other than thought? You mentioned that sensation was only sensation... So which is more true? Just the sensation or the story that says this sensation must be this or that? Is fear or excitement a thing that can be found outside of story, outside of thought?

I get anxious when driving on the highway sometimes. I felt a burning sensation in my belly although when I really focused on it, it was very hard to say exactly where it was, or if it was even in the body. It was just there. The sensation itself does not know fear. But then the thoughts come in like this is dangerous, what if i can't do this and it's difficult to answer that last question is there fear of anything.

Is the thought story about anxiety an experience of danger, or simply thoughts about (thoughts of) danger?

Was just speaking with someone and they said something about having too much pride and it sounded funny actually. I was thinking, what is pride actually besides a thought? It's not a real thing and how would you even have it?

Excellent observation. Sensation is experience, even if naming sensation is simply thought. However, "pride" (or "fear", or "excitement" etc.) is simply concept, pure story... It cannot be found outside of thinking. This observation will be key in this investigation.

There is no witness necessary to experience sensation. They just happen on there own. But it feels like something is aware of sensations.

That's interesting - we didn't need a witness for seeing or hearing either. Read our thread back and look at what you already found. So - what do you imagine will be the case with taste and smell? Try it over breakfast tomorrow morning and let me know....

All good wishes,
Dave

[EMWBerry]

Hi Dave,

Yes - so what does that suggest about this sensation, and the thought stories? Where/how does this idea that it is "fear" or "excitement" arise? Explore this a bit.

So the sensation is there, and the label of it being fear or excitement comes from thought. Depending on what the situation is exactly, there is a story that starts to play about whether this is good or bad, something to worry about or be excited about, etc. But none of that comes from the sensation itself. Thought tells the story.

So which is more true? Just the sensation or the story that says this sensation must be this or that? Is fear or excitement a thing that can be found outside of story, outside of thought?

The sensation is real. Fear and excitement cannot be found or isolated somewhere. They are just thought or a story.

Is the thought story about anxiety an experience of danger, or simply thoughts about (thoughts of) danger?

The story is not an experience of danger...just thoughts about danger. I can see this now.

Read our thread back and look at what you already found. So - what do you imagine will be the case with taste and smell? Try it over breakfast tomorrow morning and let me know....

Tried this with my cup of coffee this morning. As far as taste goes, there is just tasting. No separate taster to be found. Coffee went into my mouth (although I can't really see my mouth if we're looking at just direct experience but it went somewhere I guess) and tasting just happened. It's not something "I" do. Same with smell. Scents are detected - no one doing the smelling. And no boundary.
This is fun so far :)
Thanks,
Lisa

[DrWilko]

Hi Lisa,

Excellent looking.
Before I respond more fully, can you clarify:

Same with smell. Scents are detected - no one doing the smelling. And no boundary.

Are scents detected, or is there just smelling? If scents are detected, by what/whom?

[EMWBerry]

Hi Dave,

Are scents detected, or is there just smelling? If scents are detected, by what/whom?

I knew when I wrote it, it sounded funny. There is just smelling. They are not detected by a whom/what.

Lisa

[DrWilko]

OK - great! So, we have looked at seeing, hearing, sensation, tasting and smelling, and found that these happen in experience without the need for a witness.

Yet the witness 'seems' to be there.

You mentioned location when trying to describe where sense of self resides earlier. How do you see this working? Is it like a controller, pulling levers, situated behind the eyes, making things happen and making sure experiences are experienced? How does it seem to work?

[EMWBerry]

You mentioned location when trying to describe where sense of self resides earlier. How do you see this working? Is it like a controller, pulling levers, situated behind the eyes, making things happen and making sure experiences are experienced? How does it seem to work?

I can't even begin to articulate how this might work. It sounds a little ridiculous even. There were several times throughout the day where I tried to look at this and I just can't find the controller. Small example, my daughter is due for a dentist appt. I was sitting in the car at the gas station, the thought appeared that I needed to schedule the appt, then I made the call to the dentist. I have no idea where the thought came from. It just showed up. I wasn't trying to think it or anything like that. But after it was all, done, there was a sense that "I" did it. Same with going for a jog. The thought came that the rain had stopped and the weather was warm so I should get a jog in before it's gets cold, which I did. So thoughts seem to have an effect on what I do or don't do. But I don't know where thoughts come from. I know I'm not controlling them though.

[DrWilko]

Hi Lisa,

Great work. So:

When thoughts arise, is there anything other than thought being aware of the thoughts? Or is there just thinking?

[EMWBerry]

When thoughts arise, is there anything other than thought being aware of the thoughts? Or is there just thinking?

If im understanding the 1st question correctly, thoughts cannot be aware of thoughts. They are just thoughts and can’t acrually do anything. Like smelling, seeing, hearing there is just thinking. No separate thinker. Let me know if I missed something here.

Lisa

[DrWilko]

Hi Lisa,

Will respond more fully shortly...

Yes, I see the question could be read two ways... No - no suggestion that thought is aware of thought. The question was whether there is some "witness" separate from thought being aware of it.

[DrWilko]

Ok - fantastic so far Lisa.

So, to review, a while back you suggested that there seemed to be a witness.

We have looked at seeing, feeling, hearing, tasting, smelling, and now thought. You have told me that these all occur without the need for something separate observing them.

Does there still seem to be a witness?

If yes, is there anywhere we haven't already looked where it might be found?

So thoughts seem to have an effect on what I do or don't do. But I don't know where thoughts come from. I know I'm not controlling them though.

Do they? Do thoughts really have an effect on what happens? Have you checked this? Try now:

"Decide" to do something, and then do something different. Whether it's turning right instead of left or having tea instead of coffee. Is this possible? Does it make any difference what thought happens to an event occuring or not occuring? Play around with this day to day.

At the moment something is "decided", watch how events actually unfold. Can you spot in the moment the action is carried out that thought is making the decision happen? Or does it just happen?

Let me know how you get on with this.

All good wishes,

Dave

[EMWBerry]

Hi Dave,

Does there still seem to be a witness?

No, based on what has been discovered so far, there does not seem to be an actual witness. I believe it's just a thought about there being a witness.

Do thoughts really have an effect on what happens? Have you checked this? Try now:

"Decide" to do something, and then do something different. Whether it's turning right instead of left or having tea instead of coffee. Is this possible? Does it make any difference what thought happens to an event occuring or not occuring? Play around with this day to day.

At the moment something is "decided", watch how events actually unfold. Can you spot in the moment the action is carried out that thought is making the decision happen? Or does it just happen?

I played around with this yesterday and today. Thoughts do not have an effect on what happens and they certainly don't make the decision happen. Driving is good example. I was lost in thought this morning for 20 minutes while driving. None of the thoughts had to do with driving a car yet it was happening. Almost the entire morning routine seems to happen without much thought about it. Even with bodily movements...I'll notice it after it has happened or at the tail end of the action, like moving my hand to my mouth, or crossing my legs. No thought there that triggered it. Or I had the thought that I should not eat these pieces of candy and ate them anyway. There are tons of examples here. I am confident that I know thoughts do not affect decisions. I don't really know how decisions are made though. It seems to be a mystery. Or there is nothing in direct experience that tells me how they are made. I feel like this should be somewhat of a relief because why would you ever need to worry about anything if you're not in control? I actually find it unsettling though. I'm thinking of something like setting a goal for yourself. It's really out of your control as to whether you reach that goal or not? Or my daughter likes to draw on the chair in her bedroom...we've asked her not to do it, but she still does it. If she's not in control of her actions, it seems pointless to ask her to stop. I can see that these are thoughts and another story is being created here but it sucks you right in.

[DrWilko]

Hi Lisa,

OK... Let's go a bit deeper with these:

I believe it's just a thought about there being a witness.

Is there any doubt about this? What is this thought about witness attempting to describe?

I don't really know how decisions are made though. It seems to be a mystery.

Isn't this similar to "witness"? Is there such a thing, in actual experience, as "decision"? Or is it a thought story - ie. thoughts pointing to other thoughts? How about labelling apparent decisions "coincidence" instead? Or "retrospective event management"? Or "blah blah blah"? Seriously - try of these out when story labelled "decision" appears and see what you find.

Likewise with "goals".

I actually find it unsettling though.

Please remember what we said about fear earlier. Notice where this "unsettling" is experienced. And try applying different labels - including "blah blah blah"... What is "unsettling" in actual experience?

Or my daughter likes to draw on the chair in her bedroom...we've asked her not to do it, but she still does it. If she's not in control of her actions, it seems pointless to ask her to stop.

This looks a bit like expectations... Why would anything be any more or less pointless when something is realised that has always been the case?

"Control" and "goals" have always existed only as thoughts. How events unfold happens regardless of having those thoughts. This doesn't make any experience any more or less pointless though.

What is it that thought, thinking, actually does?

Try this experiment:

Everytime you look at something, label it. Chair. Table. Cup. Car. Whatever. A minute or two of this is enough.

Now stop. When you stop labelling, does experience simply stop? Or continue?

Now try the same thing again and label everything wrongly. So table is chair and so on.
Did anything change?

The point is, does actual experience change regardless of how "it" is labelled? Or when there is no labelling at all?

You can play around with labelling thought stories in the same way. So label decision "event", or control "release". Or just "blah" for anything. Just once or twice when these stories appear. You don't need to do any of these exercises for very long.

What appears to be the difference between these two exercises - labelling sense experience, and labelling thought stories? Is there one or other of them that points more directly to actual experience? Or are all forms of labelling simply thoughts about thoughts?

I realise there is a lot there. Take your time and remember, this is all just about what you find, not about providing me with "right" answers.

All warm wishes to you,
Dave