Long time seeker - No-one-wannabe

[forgetmenot]

Hello Ray,

Honestly, my main emotional state right now is pure terror of losing my identity... of being wrong all these years of searching and meditation... Wow! I had never looked at the huge amount and intensity of fear this process would take! And I KNOW that you KNOW how stupid I'm going to look at the end for being so cared. But hey, there's no other way.

Yes, this process engenders fear...that is normal. The "I" cannot be annihilated...the "I" you think you are never existed in the first place. I DO not exist and the I DOES not exist are very different! If this intense fear remains...let me know so that we can look at it. However, to look at it we first have to become aware of actual experience.


Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? (Make sure it is a sound that you will be able to hear again for part 2 of this exercise).

How about you do this exercise in day time so that you can become aware of the multitudes of sounds. Then choose one that you know you will hear again.

Kay

[Rayd8]

Ok. Would it work to do it inside my car? Noticing the sounds inside and outside the car?

[forgetmenot]

Sure

[Rayd8]

Ok. Inside the car... ONE sound:

Bird chirping outside.

[Rayd8]

Question:

Seeing through the illusion of “I” doesn’t mean you will lose the “I” and with it your whole identity. The “I” doesn’t exist, not even now as you are reading these lines.

Is the I just a viewpoint then? A point from which one is viewing?

Ah crap. You already said there is no observer right?

[Rayd8]

Hola y Kay,

Just wanted to let you know that I will be off work from tomorrow (Sunday) till Wednesday - 4 days in a row. So I'll be easily available.

No pressure. Just so you know my schedule is pretty open for the next 4 days.

Thanks!

[Rayd8]

Autocorrectbon the phone...

Meant to type "Hello Kay."

[Rayd8]

I believe that Language has a lot to do with Realization, so I've been going over the main definitions and important terms that I'll be rattling around in my brain.

I'm a Software Developer, so I want the correct commands and variables so I get the correct result!ha Haha

I figured it it might help someone who reads this thread in the future.

-------------------------------------
Important definitions:

(AE): Actual Experience:

ACTUAL:

(adj.)
1. (chiefly) Relating to a person's acts or deeds; active, practical. [from 14th c.]
2. Existing in reality, not just potentially; really acted or acting; occurring in fact.

(noun)
An actual, real one; notably:
1. (finance) Something actually received; real receipts, as distinct from estimated ones.

2. (military) A radio callsign modifier that specifies the commanding officer of the unit or asset denoted by the remainder of the callsign and not the officer's assistant or other designee.
Bravo Six Actual, this is Charlie One.

EXPERIENCE:
(noun)
1. (countable) Event(s) of which one is cognizant.
It was an experience he would not soon forget.
2. (countable) An activity one has performed.
3. (countable) A collection of events and/or activities from which an individual or group may gather knowledge, opinions, and skills.
4. (uncountable) The knowledge thus gathered.


DISCOVER:
(verb)
1. To find or learn something for the first time.
Turning the corner, I discovered a lovely little shop. I discovered that they sold widgets.

2. (transitive) To remove the cover from; to uncover (a head, building etc.).
(transitive) To expose, uncover.
The gust of wind discovered a bone in the sand.


REALIZE:
1. (formal) To make real; to convert from the imaginary or fictitious into the actual; to bring into concrete existence
Synonyms: accomplish

2. (transitive) To become aware of a fact or situation.
He realized that he had left his umbrella on the train.


REALIZATION:
1. The act of realizing; an act of figuring out or becoming aware.
He came to the startling realization that he had never really known the truth.
2. The act of realizing; the act of making real.
He did not stay around long enough to see the realization of the idea.

[Rayd8]

Last two: I and Subject...

I:
(pronoun)
1. The speaker or writer, referred to as the grammatical subject, of a sentence.

2. (nonstandard) The speaker or writer, referred to as the grammatical object, of a sentence.

3. (metaphysics) The ego.


SUBJECT:
(adjective)
1. Conditional upon.
The local board sets local policy, subject to approval from the State Board.

2. Placed or situated under; lying below, or in a lower situation.

3. Placed under the power of another; owing allegiance to a particular sovereign or state.

(noun)
1. (grammar) In a clause: the word or word group that is dealt with. The subject and the actor are
In the sentence ‘The mouse is eaten by the cat in the kitchen.’, ‘The mouse’ is the subject, ‘the cat’ being the agent.

2. An actor; one who takes action.

[forgetmenot]

Hello Ray,

Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? (Make sure it is a sound that you will be able to hear again for part 2 of this exercise).

Birds chirping outside

Now look carefully at what I am pointing to in the following exercise, and answer from direct (actual) experience only ie colour, sound, thought, smell, taste or sensation, and not an intellectual answer.

Please repeat the exercise and tell me:-
Without thought, how is it known that the sound heard was 'birds chirping'?
In other words, what is it that suggest the sound was 'birds chirping'?

What is the actual experience (AE) of hearing ‘birds chirping outside'’? ‘

Please remember to answer all questions that are written in blue text and to answer then individually.

Kay

[Rayd8]

Hey Kay! So good to hear from you!

Without thought, how is it known that the sound heard was 'birds chirping'?

There is no way to know what made the sound I heard outside. I've been conditioned to use the Label "Bird Chirping" or "Bird Sounds" when I hear sounds like those. "Memory" says it's a bird chirping.

In other words, what is it that suggest the sound was 'birds chirping'?

"My" mind is the only thing that suggest (that Labels) the sound as "birds chirping." It is not Direct/Actual Experience (I did not SEE the bird(s) with my sight - with my eye balls?).

What is the actual experience (AE) of hearing ‘birds chirping outside'?

The AE is a brief and repetitive series of short bursts of a high-pitched sound. The sound varies a bit. It's not the same every time.

The Label of WHAT it is comes from "my mind."

If I had heard that sound for the first time, I'd say, "Hmmm. I wonder what that sound is?" but the answer to that comes from the mind, unless I actually see the bird moving its beak and assume the sound is coming from the bird.

Come to think of it, there's no real way to know WHERE the sound is coming from. I am conditioned by repetition to move my head around until it points to "the source of the sound." - Does it seem louder in my left or right ear? If the answer is "left ear," the sound is coming from that direction (left).

But this is all "experience" - trained/conditioned assumptions or conclusions.

FYI: I also noticed a feeling of self-importance or pride as I answered these questions. Feeling that "I did a good job with the test." Not proud of that after noticing it either...

Hit me again! I need help! I spent all day trying to see through the illusion and got nowhere...

[forgetmenot]

Hello Ray,

Without thought, how is it known that the sound heard was 'birds chirping'?

There is no way to know what made the sound I heard outside. I've been conditioned to use the Label "Bird Chirping" or "Bird Sounds" when I hear sounds like those. "Memory" says it's a bird chirping.

Yes, exactly. Without thought there is no knowing what the sound is. It is simply actual experience (AE) of sound. Thought points to the sound and labels the raw experience as "birds chirping'.

There is no “I” that has been conditioned and there is no “I” that has a memory. We will look at the nature of thoughts shortly.

In other words, what is it that suggest the sound was 'birds chirping'?

"My" mind is the only thing that suggest (that Labels) the sound as "birds chirping." It is not Direct/Actual Experience (I did not SEE the bird(s) with my sight - with my eye balls?).

It is simply thought that suggests the sound is ‘birds chirping’

What is the AE of ‘mind’? Is it taste, smell, colour, sound, sensation or thought?

Without thought, how is it known that a bird is what made the sound?

What is the actual experience (AE) of hearing ‘birds chirping outside'?

The AE is a brief and repetitive series of short bursts of a high-pitched sound. The sound varies a bit. It's not the same every time.

It is simply AE of sound.
The rest you wrote is a story about the sound and is actual experience of thought only. We only want what the actual experience is. The rest is superfluous information.

The Label of WHAT it is comes from "my mind."

The label is AE of thought. What does the label ‘mind’ point to? Does it point to sound, colour, smell, taste, sensation or thought? Can a ‘mind’ be found in actual experience?

If I had heard that sound for the first time, I'd say, "Hmmm. I wonder what that sound is?" but the answer to that comes from the mind, unless I actually see the bird moving its beak and assume the sound is coming from the bird.

All this is story and is AE of thought. The only validity it has as actual experience is that it is AE of thought. Nothing more.

Actual experience is everything but the content of thought. Thought, in and of itself contains no experience. If it did, you would be able to feel the word ‘hot’ and hear the word’ thunder’.

Hit me again! I need help! I spent all day trying to see through the illusion and got nowhere...

This type of efforting will get you nowhere but frustration, resistance, hopelessness and anger. TRYING to get it, doesn't work. If you could get it by TRYING like that...then you would have already gotten it! You need to relax and just have some fun with this. Insights and realisations happen when they happen and no amount of efforting or trying to force it is going to work.

Kay

[Rayd8]

There is no “I” that has been conditioned and there is no “I” that has a memory. We will look at the nature of thoughts shortly.

Would it help of I write it a thousand times on the blackboard?

There is no "I"
There is no "I"
There is no "I"
There is no "I"...

What is the AE of ‘mind’? Is it taste, smell, colour, sound, sensation or thought?

The AE of "mind" must be thought because I can't have an AE of mind. Mind is a "bucket full" of thoughts - actually, without the bucket. There are only thoughts.

AE can only be Sight, Sound, Smell, Touch, Taste, Thought.

Without thought, how is it known that a bird is what made the sound?

There is no way to know what made the sound. Actually, even if I see the bird opening and closing its beak at the same time I hear the "chirping sound," I am having an AE of the Sound, and a SEPARATE AE of the image of the bird opening and closing its beak. What AE would show me that the sound and the image of the bird are connected? The video and audio of a movie are not connected to each other at all. It is a thought that connects them...

The label is AE of thought. What does the label ‘mind’ point to? Does it point to sound, colour, smell, taste, sensation or thought? Can a ‘mind’ be found in actual experience?

I see it now. "Mind" cannot be an AE of anything but thought. "Mind" only points to thought.

Question: I notice you use Tought in Singlular and not in plural (ThoughtS). Is there a reason for that, or just semantics? The mind seems to have an infinite number of thoughts.

Is this correct, or is it just one big thought?

I see Mind as a container full of thoughts...

The dictionary defines Mind as:
"A record of a thing or an event stored and available for later use by the organism.
Example: I have no memory of that event."

The label is AE of thought. What does the label ‘mind’ point to? Does it point to sound, colour, smell, taste, sensation or thought? Can a ‘mind’ be found in actual experience?

If I had heard that sound for the first time, I'd say, "Hmmm. I wonder what that sound is?" but the answer to that comes from the mind, unless I actually see the bird moving its beak and assume the sound is coming from the bird.

All this is story and is AE of thought. The only validity it has as actual experience is that it is AE of thought. Nothing more.

Actual experience is everything but the content of thought. Thought, in and of itself contains no experience. If it did, you would be able to feel the word ‘hot’ and hear the word’ thunder’.

All of the quote above makes perfect sense now.

The label is AE of thought... This clarifies things a lot.

AE is what is experienced through Sight, Sound, Smell, Touch, Taste. Thought adds all the Labels - Overlay.

AE is Raw Experience because the Labels are added by Thought. Like an overlay. Like wearing glasses with blue colored lenses. Things are not blue. They seem blue because of the overplayed tint added by the blue lenses.

Hit me again! I need help! I spent all day trying to see through the illusion and got nowhere...

This type of efforting will get you nowhere but frustration, resistance, hopelessness and anger. TRYING to get it, doesn't work. If you could get it by TRYING like that...then you would have already gotten it! You need to relax and just have some fun with this. Insights and realisations happen when they happen and no amount of efforting or trying to force it is going to work.

That's good to know! It's obvious now, after I read it... But patience is not one of my strengths, as you probably already know.

As Master Yoda said: "Do or Do Not! There is not Try!"

Ok, Let's have some fun with this!

[Rayd8]

I just noticed that I didn't answer this question:

Can a ‘mind’ be found in actual experience?

It cannot. There can only be AE of Thought.

[forgetmenot]

Hello Ray,

Please read my posts more than once and read them very thoroughly. Look very carefully at what the questions are pointing to and read the questions several times before answering. Do the exercises several times before answering the questions.

What is the AE of ‘mind’? Is it taste, smell, colour, sound, sensation or thought?

The AE of "mind" must be thought because I can't have an AE of mind. Mind is a "bucket full" of thoughts - actually, without the bucket. There are only thoughts.

AE can only be Sight, Sound, Smell, Touch, Taste, Thought.

There is no ‘sight’. There would have to be someone who is seeing for there to be sight. There is no separation. There is no one seeing colour...there is just colour.

Without thought, how is it known that a bird is what made the sound?

There is no way to know what made the sound. Actually, even if I see the bird opening and closing its beak at the same time I hear the "chirping sound," I am having an AE of the Sound, and a SEPARATE AE of the image of the bird opening and closing its beak. What AE would show me that the sound and the image of the bird are connected? The video and audio of a movie are not connected to each other at all. It is a thought that connects them...

There is no ‘you’ having an AE of anything! There is no subject/object split.

What is the AE of ‘bird’?

How can AE show you that sound and image of bird are connected? Without thought, how could this possibly be known?

The label is AE of thought. What does the label ‘mind’ point to? Does it point to sound, colour, smell, taste, sensation or thought? Can a ‘mind’ be found in actual experience?

I see it now. "Mind" cannot be an AE of anything but thought. "Mind" only points to thought.

Yes, the AE of mind = thought

Question: I notice you use Tought in Singlular and not in plural (ThoughtS). Is there a reason for that, or just semantics? The mind seems to have an infinite number of thoughts.

Put questions aside. They will be answered as we move through this exploration. Just focus on what is being pointed at.

I see Mind as a container full of thoughts...

What?? What is the AE of mind?
Where is this container located exactly?
What does it look like exactly…please describe it in precise detail.

The dictionary defines Mind as:
"A record of a thing or an event stored and available for later use by the organism.
Example: I have no memory of that event."

I am not in the least bit interested in what a dictionary has to say. This isn’t about what you think you know. This exploration is about unlearning everything you think you know. Knowing ABOUT something is called knowledge (ie thought). Knowing what actually IS, is direct/actual. Nothing is known as in knowledge – only thought says something is known because thought seemingly knows it.

What does what you wrote point to? Does it point to colour, smell, taste, sensation, sound or thought?

The label is AE of thought... This clarifies things a lot.
AE is what is experienced through Sight, Sound, Smell, Touch, Taste. Thought adds all the Labels - Overlay.

Yes. How is a label any different to a thought? There is no difference between labels and thoughts…they are both AE of thought. Thought labels all raw experience with a story.

Go back to the bird exercise.

Label ‘bird chirping’ is AE of thought and not AE of a bird chirping
Sound labelled as ‘bird chirping’ is AE of sound and not AE of a bird chirping
Image labelled as ‘bird’ is AE of colour and not AE of a bird
Thoughts ABOUT a bird, what it does etc is the content of the thought ‘bird chirping’ and is AE of thought and not AE of a bird chirping.

What is actually known because it is AE, is label + sound + colour + thoughts. Is a bird actually known?

AE is Raw Experience because the Labels are added by Thought. Like an overlay. Like wearing glasses with blue colored lenses. Things are not blue. They seem blue because of the overplayed tint added by the blue lenses.

The labels are NOT added by thought. Labels ARE thought…there is no difference between a label and a thought.

The interpretation of actual experience happens quickly. So while inquiring, labelling and interpretation will always appear, but it is possible to become aware of the thoughts that appear with,and overlay actual experience. Another key component of this exploration is being able to tell the difference between actual experience and the interpretation by thought of actual experience

The following exercise points to what I mean.

For this exercise you will need an apple or any other piece of fruit will do.



Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is known for sure? Colour is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What you know for sure, and, is always here.

The label ‘apple’ is known
Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?

Kay