We can start here when you are ready.

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Elizabeth
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Re: We can start here when you are ready.

Postby Elizabeth » Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:46 pm

No, I don't.

I'm not real.

I felt so strangely good when I realized that. It's been a few hours since then.

It's so simple I keep thinking I've missed something, though. I feel pretty good about it, but I keep wanting to battle it and set up safeguards and tell myself 'watch out if you start thinking like this because that means that' and so on.

It all defeats the point, doesn't it? Life happens. I don't exist, I can't guard anything. There's nothing to do the guarding. Nothing to sit there watching the thoughts and making sure they dont step out of line, which is what I've tried in the past. There's nothing there. I'm not there.

Everything just is.

These thoughts, though, god damn. Is this like detox or something?
Laughing here. The thoughts! Indeed, it's like detox. The thoughts, patterns, programs we have running seldom disappear in one go. However, this knowing, that they don't constitute a real self, or a real world, certainly takes the teeth out of them. Some of them won't go without a fight. In many ways, this is the beginning. But so very cool to wake to this.

Everything just is. Yes, love it. It is that simple.
Let's go a little further.
Do the lines we draw, that separate a self, and other things from the whole, do they exist? In reality, is anything ever separate? How would that work?

I'll ask some Gate questions soon, to confirm the basic understanding and to get it clear.

It's a pleasure, Rogue. Talk to you tomorrow.
Love, Elizabeth

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Re: We can start here when you are ready.

Postby Rogue » Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:12 am

Do the lines we draw, that separate a self, and other things from the whole, do they exist? In reality, is anything ever separate? How would that work?
Uhm. They don't exist in reality, just in the mind. That much I know. And everything at a fundamental level is made up of the same stuff but moving in different patterns, isn't it? If that's true then really the only way they're separate is in the way we perceive objects and patterns.

When I look at a room I see the individual objects separated by space. But on an intellectual level at least, I can understand that the objects require the space to function. They're two sides of the same coin. You can't have one without the other. But I'm paraphrasing something I've heard others say; I don't understand it very well. It makes sense though.

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Re: We can start here when you are ready.

Postby Elizabeth » Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:50 am

Do the lines we draw, that separate a self, and other things from the whole, do they exist? In reality, is anything ever separate? How would that work?
Uhm. They don't exist in reality, just in the mind. That much I know. And everything at a fundamental level is made up of the same stuff but moving in different patterns, isn't it? If that's true then really the only way they're separate is in the way we perceive objects and patterns.

When I look at a room I see the individual objects separated by space. But on an intellectual level at least, I can understand that the objects require the space to function. They're two sides of the same coin. You can't have one without the other. But I'm paraphrasing something I've heard others say; I don't understand it very well. It makes sense though.
Yes. It does make sense. Little further on dependent arising:
As you go about your day, note things like how 'you appear' in front of the fridge reaching for food, before you feel very hungry. Or you arrive at a destination with some gaps in memory, not sure who drove the last few miles, or walked the whole way. You ask the question, if there's no me moving body around, what is?
Look at a world where a self is just a thought, separation is just a thought, can you see how everything (that just is) is moving?
A world where everything is, is moving.
The cat walking his lone way, the baby that is too young to have a mental construct, the trees in the wind, how are they managing to live? Look. Look directly.

Nice work, Rogue.
Love, Elizabeth

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Re: We can start here when you are ready.

Postby Rogue » Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:49 pm

Look at a world where a self is just a thought, separation is just a thought, can you see how everything (that just

is) is moving? A world where everything is, is moving.
I have looked and tried to answer your question, but the truth is that I feel overwhelmed at the moment. The realisation I don't exist hasn't been a smooth thing like I thought it would be. The past day or two have been something like a roller coaster. I keep thinking I 'get it', and then realise that by thinking that way, I don't get it at all. My thoughts are a tangled mess right now.

It's such an overwhelmingly strong habit in me to want to cling to the perception of reality as it is. To try and cling to the realisation so that it doesn't disappear. And that habit is getting me in trouble here. I've been extremely aware of the thoughts going through my mind, they haven't slowed down since I first realised there was no 'me' there to do the clinging.

Now, I feel like I'm miles away from the place I was when I first realised that. I went from feeling really good to what feels like swimming in circles trying not to drown.

I guess I'm asking for help and advice. Does this mean what I saw wasn't the real thing? I feel confused and exhausted, which is a real contrast to the elated feeling I had before. I must admit, I feel very disappointed in myself. I feel like I was running a marathon, finally reached the finish line and then right before I crossed it I slipped over backwards.

I'm sorry I can't answer your question. I don't know the answer, and I'm having trouble working through it myself right now. It feels as though there's a thunderstorm in my head.

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Re: We can start here when you are ready.

Postby Rogue » Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:58 pm

I figured it out. The part I've been having issues with is that I don't own my actions or thoughts.

There's a fairly simple pattern which occurs. It's the thought that says "You need to do x to achieve goal y." It's almost always running, and it has helped me to figure things out in the past. But now, I realize that actions and thoughts occur without a self necessary to enact them. This thought is the one that keeps tripping me up, because it kicks in right after I begin seeing things for what they are. Then it says, "Aha! So -you- need to -do- x to achieve this state of perception." And that begins the process.

My head feels much clearer. Sorry for the...uhm..detour while I thought that out, but that thought process was driving me absolutely nuts. I'll get to work on the questions about dependent arising as soon as I can.

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Re: We can start here when you are ready.

Postby Elizabeth » Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:38 pm

I figured it out. The part I've been having issues with is that I don't own my actions or thoughts.

There's a fairly simple pattern which occurs. It's the thought that says "You need to do x to achieve goal y." It's almost always running, and it has helped me to figure things out in the past. But now, I realize that actions and thoughts occur without a self necessary to enact them. This thought is the one that keeps tripping me up, because it kicks in right after I begin seeing things for what they are. Then it says, "Aha! So -you- need to -do- x to achieve this state of perception." And that begins the process.

My head feels much clearer. Sorry for the...uhm..detour while I thought that out, but that thought process was driving me absolutely nuts. I'll get to work on the questions about dependent arising as soon as I can.
No problem :-)
It's quite common to see through the illusion of self at one level, and find that a more subtle version is being reconstituted in some form. It's as if something refuses to believe that this can be possible, somewhere there must be a little man running the show. On investigation, no little man to be found, except as a bunch of thoughts ABOUT thoughts. Gets to be a self-reflective loop, doesn't it? Which is a lovely description of a self-mechanism.
It's actually great that you see this now, on your own.
Looking forward to further findings.
Love, Elizabeth

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Re: We can start here when you are ready.

Postby Rogue » Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:12 am

Sorry for the lack of posting! I've been painting a house which is taking up a lot of time. It's giving me time to think, but not time to organize my thoughts.

A lot of my time and attention has still been towards what we've already covered. It's so easy for the 'self' to kick back in at the moment. I now really understand what you meant about 'more subtle versions'. Every time I think I have the 'self' pinned down, I realize that just as I reach a moment of triumph that the 'self' is what's trying to pin itself down, which is as pointless as it sounds.

I have moments of understanding and clarity where I'm fully present, of what I guess is called liberation. But I don't feel I'm there yet at all. I feel as though you've brought me to a place where I occasionally see through all the fog, but it still requires a great deal of focus for me to reach that state. Perhaps my thinking about it has become twisted? It seems like such an effortless state shouldn't require so much effort to reach. And effort on the part of what? My 'self'? I don't know.

I'm still struggling with dependent arising. I must admit, I had already spent a long time thinking about my self and examining my thoughts, so questions of that nature came much easier than questions about the outside world. I try to really -look-, but I get a confused blur of impressions. Everything seems connected, but I can't see or understand how. Nothing is truly separate. That's as far as I've reached, and I don't feel that I understand that properly either. I'll continue to look of course. I don't yet understand what you mean about everything moving, try as I might to see it.

I feel as though initially, my work with you was extremely liberating and I was soaring a long from one revelation to the next. Now, I feel as though I've soared directly into a brick wall. And on top of that, everything that I thought made sense I need to keep 'checking' or else I forget.

It's fun in a way, though. I'll continue to work on it!

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Re: We can start here when you are ready.

Postby Elizabeth » Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:46 pm

Hi Rogue,
Glad you are back.
I think you have done the main work already, and more will unfold from here:
"I figured it out. The part I've been having issues with is that I don't own my actions or thoughts"

It's down to observation. Watching how body reaches for the glass, or the fork.
Does anything own or do, in reality?
Look again at animals, small babies and children, trees, water, moon.
What moves? What lives, breathes, is perceived?
You need not have a rational response. Just look.

Here are a few questions to pull things together. An exercise on boundaries:

'Close your eyes and search for the boundary of you. Where do you end and where does the world begin? In your direct experience, how tall are you? How old? How many toes do you have? Couldn't you be any shape? Can you feel a boundary between skin and clothes, or is this only a kind of blurry sensation?

Smell a rose or dogshit. Without thinking, without telling stories: Is there a you smelling the flower? Or is there only the experience of smell...

When you open your eyes, what happens? Is there a you looking out of two holes in you head?
Are you doing seeing? Or are the sights just here, without any boundary?"

And there is no worry about sustaining any state or seeing. The point here is to observe and directly experience clearly at least once. The illusion is seen through, not permanently dispelled, although that apparently happens once in a while. More mercifully, most have a period of unwinding the patterns, seeing through the layers and layers of thought and reactivity, which you can already see quite clearly!
Once the mechanisms of assembling a self are seen, it's hard to ignore, and most of us will have a series of realizations, which I must say, has been ongoing wonder and discovery here. It's been very cool.
So, more work, easy to do while painting. What's painting? What's moving the trees, flowing across your face, drying the paint? Where are the boundaries? :-)
Much love, Elizabeth

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Re: We can start here when you are ready.

Postby Rogue » Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:53 am

Hi Elizabeth,
It's down to observation. Watching how body reaches for the glass, or the fork.
Does anything own or do, in reality?
Look again at animals, small babies and children, trees, water, moon.
What moves? What lives, breathes, is perceived?
You need not have a rational response. Just look.
I'm going to preface these answers with this: I'm shutting off the rational part of my mind and trying to just say what I see when I just sit. I'm not sure most of this makes any sense, but I've had no luck trying to 'think it out' as it were so I'm going to try and talk about direct experience. If it doesn't make sense, please tell me so and I'll work on expressing myself better! :)

So: Nothing owns anything in reality. The do part of the question took me much longer to answer. The way I found to express it feels awkward to say, but what I saw sitting in the garden watching birds and trees and just being in the moment was this: Everything does what it is. A cat does what it is, and is what it does. There's no 'self' of a cat there telling the cat what it should or shouldn't do. I've been trying to refine my thoughts on it further but what I saw was a bird doing...what a bird is. I had an impression that the bird wasn't singing; there was birdsong, there was a bird. There was no cause there. They just were. They couldn't help but be. The bird was not choosing to do singing; the cat didn't decide to do some stretching. It was doing what it was, and it was what it was doing. I'm struggling to find a more eloquent way of conveying what I saw, but I hope that makes sense.

What moves? Everything. Everything moves, nothing is separate, everything is all moving and existing as one...thing. And you can pick out parts of the individual thing to focus on, like a bird or a cat, but they're not truly separate from anything around them.

'Close your eyes and search for the boundary of you. Where do you end and where does the world begin? In your direct experience, how tall are you? How old? How many toes do you have? Couldn't you be any shape? Can you feel a boundary between skin and clothes, or is this only a kind of blurry sensation?
Interestingly, I think I could be any shape when I sit. In my direct experience, I have no age. I just am right now. I can't sense how many toes I have exactly even if I move them. I'm as tall as I am; the question seems silly when I just am. It doesn't seem silly to my 'self'; my 'self' wants to get a number and then compare that number with other peoples numbers. In my direct experience, though, I experience myself as tall enough to see what I can see.

Where do I end and the world begins? I have no idea how to answer that question. I can't find a proper boundary, or if I do, it shifts along with my attention. I think this is related to birds doing what birds are, that idea that I saw. I noticed when I saw that as well that birds and their environment are...well...hrm. The environment affects the bird, and the bird affects the environment, but I wouldn't say one causes the other. It's like they cause each other at the same time. And I think perhaps the same is true of people, and of me specifically.
Smell a rose or dogshit. Without thinking, without telling stories: Is there a you smelling the flower? Or is there only the experience of smell...

When you open your eyes, what happens? Is there a you looking out of two holes in you head?
Are you doing seeing? Or are the sights just here, without any boundary?"
Now with practice, I can see bigger gaps before thinking and 'self' kicks back in. There's clearly only experience of smell. The sights are there, there is nobody 'seeing', there just is sight. It is, the same way a bird is, a tree is, the computer is, a body is. They just are. And when a body is breathing, the body isn't 'doing' breathing; the body is, and breathing is. Again, I'm not certain that makes much sense but that's been the experience I've noticed.

And there is no worry about sustaining any state or seeing. The point here is to observe and directly experience clearly at least once. The illusion is seen through, not permanently dispelled, although that apparently happens once in a while.
This was what kept tripping me up. I was thinking of it like a state, and so was telling my 'self' to get to being in that state. Which is a trap; there's no self to be doing anything in the first place. Which is the whole point. I'm glad that the illusion wasn't meant to be permanently dispelled, yet anyway; I thought I had messed it up in some way. That description matches how I have felt, though. I have seen through something, and keep seeing through it in short periods of time, and it is changing my perceptions.
So, more work, easy to do while painting. What's painting? What's moving the trees, flowing across your face, drying the paint? Where are the boundaries? :-)
Nothing is painting, painting is. The wind is moving the trees, drying the paint and flowing across my face, but the wind isn't -doing- those things. The wind is...is doing what it's being. I don't know how to say it more clearly, though I would dearly like to. My vocabulary is failing me a bit.

I can't find the boundaries. It's strange, because I think they should be there, but in my direct, undivided experience, when I look, I experience a blurry sensation of my physical body but no boundary between it and anything else. I guess perhaps when someone hits something else, I don't physically feel it? So perhaps the boundary is where my sensation of touch stops.

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Re: We can start here when you are ready.

Postby Rogue » Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:13 am

And again, I'm sorry there's been longer than a day between my past few replies. The painting is now done. They were very long days, and it was with family, so we were working until quite late and then sitting around talking and eating together.

I'm back to having more time again, which means I can sit and give your questions my full attention.

Though I suspect if it truly was full attention there would be no need for the questions!

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Re: We can start here when you are ready.

Postby Elizabeth » Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:51 am

Hi Rogue,
I found these observations to be quite clear.
Glad there was a little time available to do them, savor them. Looking directly is always available to you.
For now, I think you are ready for the Gate questions :-)
They'll be read by at least three others and they might have an additional clarifying question, something I may have missed.
After you've answered, I'll add you into a group that continues this discussion, on Facebook, if you would like that.

So, if you could look at what you see, and answer fully, this also helps people who simply come to read the threads.

1) Is there a you, at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?

2) Can you explain in detail what the self is and how it works, to a friend who was interested, but knew nothing of 'spirituality'?

3) How does it feel to see through? What changes?

Much love, and a happy day.
Elizabeth

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Re: We can start here when you are ready.

Postby Elizabeth » Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:52 pm

Hi Rogue.
Awaiting a reply.
?

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Re: We can start here when you are ready.

Postby Rogue » Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:20 pm

Hi Elizabeth!

As I mentioned in the PMs, sorry for the delay and thank you for your understanding and support.

Here we go:
1) Is there a you, at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Nope! There is no 'I'. There are only thoughts about 'I'. What we perceive as self is a collection of thoughts, some invented stories and some memories that we decide constitute our 'self'.

There's not actully anything permanent there. Just thoughts. Just feelings.

2) Can you explain in detail what the self is and how it works, to a friend who was interested, but knew nothing of 'spirituality'?
For starters, the self is what most people believe they are. They are that thing peeking out from behind their eyes, making decisions. They have a past and a present and a future, and they perceive themselves to be a constant fixed entity. The self has feelings and thoughts and a body which they make perform actions. This idea of a self is based on the idea that we are all separate from everything else, with sharply defined boundaries. My body is 'me', but the table in front of me is not, for example.

When people interested in spirituality talk about piercing through the illusion of self, this idea is what they're referring to. This belief that there is a separate 'I' that is making all the decisions and calling the shots. That there is an 'I' with certain physical, unalterable characteristics. But I believe that's nonsense.

The 'self' is nothing more than a collection of thoughts and stories that we arbitrarily believe make up who we are. The key word here is believe. We are capable of believing things whether or not there's any objective evidence that they're real. This belief is so strong, and so unquestioned, that it can seem bizarre to even think about it. When I looked for evidence of my 'self', I couldn't find any.

When I say the 'self' is made up of stories, I'm referring to memories, but also beliefs and ideas about who we are. In a sense, the 'self' is made up of recurring patterns of thought and nothing more. And so when the thoughts are not forming these patterns, the 'self' ceases to exist, though in truth it was never real to begin with. Consider further, that if its true that the 'self' is made up of thoughts, where do thoughts come from?

What is left without a self, you may ask? If I do not exist, what is left?

What I found was left was life. Life was happening. I experienced awareness of the present moment, free from the confusion and muddled influence of the 'self'. Thoughts did not cease, but rather were no longer identified with. It's an experience difficult to put into words, because in that moment there were no words.
3) How does it feel to see through? What changes?
What changes is your perception and experience of life. There was a sense of clarity. In my chest, I felt more open. More malleable. There was acute awareness of the constant stream of thoughts. They had always been there, but when I saw through they seemed so much louder.

I want to emphasise that outside of your perception, nothing changes. The world is as wonderfully ordinary as it was beforehand. You just become more aware of it, as you're less caught up in the stories you tell yourself about yourself. In a way, it is like experiencing life directly, rather than through a filter.

It's as if everything suddenly becomes very simple. The world of concepts and words doesn't clutter everything. As I described in this thread, I sat in the garden watching birds. My experience was not as it used to be, where I saw a bird as an active participant. Instead, the bird was doing what it was being. The bird was, and birdsong was, but the bird was not -choosing- to sing. It simply is what it does.

I still haven't thought of a better way to word that, but I hope you reading this understand what I mean.

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Re: We can start here when you are ready.

Postby Elizabeth » Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:21 pm

Thanks, Rogue, I enjoyed reading that. A lot.
I'll have a couple of people check it for any more questions and see if they would like a point clarified. and get back to you soonest on that.
Appreciate the work you put in to make this clear.
A hug to you, not-separate One :-)
Love, Elizabeth

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Re: We can start here when you are ready.

Postby Elizabeth » Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:13 pm

Others have had a look, and no more questions, we think you are indeed clear on this. It's been a pleasure talking with you. I'll PM you with a few options for further exploration which you are quite free to ignore :-)
Freedom. Nothing left to lose?
Love, Elizabeth


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