Liberation

[Suzanne68]

Hello again and good morning!
Another thing I noticed is that there is nothing that the self/ego can or cannot do to stop grasping/creating thoughts in the form of memories, fantasies, futur scénarios, etc. Si
When we say the self/ego does not exist we mean if is empty is a separate distinct and lasting phenomenon right? Then what do we do with the thoughts it keeps on creating? Do I just let them be? Or am I supposed to focus back on the present moment as the arise?
Thanks,
S.

[adilerten]

Sure as you may guess if we cut open that chest, we won't be able to find an i inside right ? :)
So you say i "feel"
Ok then take a good look at this feeling!
Take your time focus and tell me please
Does this 'feeling' suggest or knows in anyway that it is a "Suzanne" ?
Is that feeling is an actual sensation?

Hi! Of course I know that if we open the chest there won’t be any I. But why do I keep going back to this future bound sense that the fantasies seem to bring me? It seems as if I’m not engaged in anything, I zone out right away... am i unable to live the present moment at all? Is it to ordinary or boring for my ego? And how does one look without thinking at all?
So no I don’t feel there is a definite Suzanne inside the body or the mind, but I’m a slave to my thoughts then. To me, staying with the sensations in the moment seems impossible. E
That’s what I mean, by being in between full realization and intellectually understanding. This is disturbing. Your thoughts are welcome 🙂
[/quote]

I strongly recommend you to stop thinking too much. Forget the definitons about "ego" "self" "emptiness"
Drop any kind of expectations that something will happen or not just focus on our questions & answers.
Expectations are future bound, There has never been a separate self, so life goes on as life always has. It is only thought that suggests life needs to improve and that there are good and bad things in life. There is no one/no thing controlling how life unfolds as life unfolds spontaneously from moment to moment. ;)

We will try to look one by one every field to find this "i" if it really exists
and please answer:

Please see, touch, smell, hear, or taste the “I” Can you ?
How do you sense it?

[adilerten]

However, when I say " I feel, I only have a vague sense of self. There’s the body, the mind, and the thoughts that keep popping on their own, but I can’t seem to find the definite I.
It feels like it’s there, but I can’t put my finger on it so to speak.

Where is it, and in what kind of form does it exist?
Could you observe that seemingly existing “something?”
How do you sense it?
Please keep feeling what you call “feels like there,” and really tell me how it is perceived *
Words “Seems” "feels" a synonym for “I haven’t seen it clearly,” and we
intend to really see clearly, don’t we?

[adilerten]

Dear Suzanne
Please answer all the questions on my last 2 replies by using quote function for the sake of our conversation to be clear and flowing.
Here is a link how you may use the quote function like i do.
Thank you
:)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

[Suzanne68]

I strongly recommend you to stop thinking too much. Forget the definitons about "ego" "self" "emptiness"
Drop any kind of expectations that something will happen or not just focus on our questions & answers.
Expectations are future bound, There has never been a separate self, so life goes on as life always has. It is only thought that suggests life needs to improve and that there are good and bad things in life. There is no one/no thing controlling how life unfolds as life unfolds spontaneously from moment to moment. ;)

We will try to look one by one every field to find this "i" if it really exists
and please answer:

Please see, touch, smell, hear, or taste the “I” Can you ?
How do you sense it?

I see myself, what I look like, I can touch my skin, hair, etc. I can hear the sound of my voice. taste, not so much...
I sense my body.

[Suzanne68]

However, when I say " I feel, I only have a vague sense of self. There’s the body, the mind, and the thoughts that keep popping on their own, but I can’t seem to find the definite I.
It feels like it’s there, but I can’t put my finger on it so to speak.

Where is it, and in what kind of form does it exist?
Could you observe that seemingly existing “something?”
How do you sense it?
Please keep feeling what you call “feels like there,” and really tell me how it is perceived *
Words “Seems” "feels" a synonym for “I haven’t seen it clearly,” and we
intend to really see clearly, don’t we?

I can only clearly observe my thoughts and my sensations. That's real. I can smell, touch, hear, see and taste. That I see clearly. I don't know where the I is, or its form. My guess is that it's inside the body of flesh and somewhere inside the brain. It's what animates my body and mind. I sense it usually when I'm criticized or embarrassed. That's when I see it most clearly.

[adilerten]

Ok Suzanne
Thank you for learning and using quote function properly :)

can only clearly observe my thoughts and my sensations. That's real. I can smell, touch, hear, see and taste. That I see clearly. I don't know where the I is, or its form.

You say "I can smell, touch, hear, see and taste"
Is there really a you in charge of these ? or they are simply there?
do you move the blood and make heart beat?
do you need to manage bodily functions ?
when you open eyes and see colours and shapes, do you need to do anything in order to see the view?
do you need to do anything to hear sounds?
how about brain, are you in charge of what neurons fire and what new connections are made?
Are you really the doer of thinking, sensing, experiencing?
If now, this moment you stop believing you are a self, do you think these will stop?

Please first look at these questions above and read this enlightening article below from Ilona,
You will find an exercise in this article after looking to this questions please do that exercise and report what comes..
http://markedeternal.blogspot.com/2012/05/labels.html
Thank you
Sending much love

[Suzanne68]

Is there really a you in charge of these ? or they are simply there?
do you move the blood and make heart beat?
do you need to manage bodily functions ?
when you open eyes and see colours and shapes, do you need to do anything in order to see the view?
do you need to do anything to hear sounds?
how about brain, are you in charge of what neurons fire and what new connections are made?
Are you really the doer of thinking, sensing, experiencing?
If now, this moment you stop believing you are a self, do you think these will stop?

Hello again,
Wow! That was amazing! I had a breakthrough. The last phrase was key; if you stop believing that you are a self, do you think they will stop?
Could it be this simple? I spent the whole day coming back to these simple sensations. It feels like a whole world opened up to me and still, it’s so familiar.
My meditation was all the more focused and simple. I rested completely. As for the writing exercise, the first part was me strenuous and I cas to look for things to write. I felt more stressed and performance seemed mère important. The second part was much easier, the words kept coming easily.
Metta,
Suzanne
Stop

[adilerten]

Is there really a you in charge of these ? or they are simply there?
do you move the blood and make heart beat?
do you need to manage bodily functions ?
when you open eyes and see colours and shapes, do you need to do anything in order to see the view?
do you need to do anything to hear sounds?
how about brain, are you in charge of what neurons fire and what new connections are made?
Are you really the doer of thinking, sensing, experiencing?
If now, this moment you stop believing you are a self, do you think these will stop?

Hello again,
Wow! That was amazing! I had a breakthrough. The last phrase was key; if you stop believing that you are a self, do you think they will stop?
Could it be this simple? I spent the whole day coming back to these simple sensations. It feels like a whole world opened up to me and still, it’s so familiar.
My meditation was all the more focused and simple. I rested completely. As for the writing exercise, the first part was me strenuous and I cas to look for things to write. I felt more stressed and performance seemed mère important. The second part was much easier, the words kept coming easily.
Metta,
Suzanne
Stop

i am happy to see that a shift in understanding takes place.
it is so simple. When you really look and see that you are not there, just life living of its own accord, you laugh.
It is funny, like a cosmic joke.. :)

I see that you get what i wanted for you to get from Ilona's excercises also..You see how life flows even without the verbal existance of "I". Can you see that the thought “I” is just a word that we put in front of other words in language?
That's it.

But dear Suzanne can you please also answer above questions i repeat below for us to move on.
Thank you

Is there really a you in charge of these ? or they are simply there?
do you move the blood and make heart beat?
do you need to manage bodily functions ?
when you open eyes and see colours and shapes, do you need to do anything in order to see the view?
do you need to do anything to hear sounds?
how about brain, are you in charge of what neurons fire and what new connections are made?
Are you really the doer of thinking, sensing, experiencing?
If now, this moment you stop believing you are a self, do you think these will stop?

[Suzanne68]

Is there really a you in charge of these ? or they are simply there?
do you move the blood and make heart beat?
do you need to manage bodily functions ?
when you open eyes and see colours and shapes, do you need to do anything in order to see the view?
do you need to do anything to hear sounds?
how about brain, are you in charge of what neurons fire and what new connections are made?
Are you really the doer of thinking, sensing, experiencing?
If now, this moment you stop believing you are a self, do you think these will stop?

Hello,
No, there is no "me" in charge of these bodily functions, it makes sense from a survival perspective that we don't have to will these functions. It simply happens. So that's what it means to rediscover "to simply be"? Am I not the doer of anything?
In fact its the phrase: "If now, this moment you stop believing you are a self, do you think these will stop?" that struck me the most. Like a bolt of lightning! Of course it won't stop. it's always been there, life happening.

[adilerten]

Is there really a you in charge of these ? or they are simply there?
do you move the blood and make heart beat?
do you need to manage bodily functions ?
when you open eyes and see colours and shapes, do you need to do anything in order to see the view?
do you need to do anything to hear sounds?
how about brain, are you in charge of what neurons fire and what new connections are made?
Are you really the doer of thinking, sensing, experiencing?
If now, this moment you stop believing you are a self, do you think these will stop?

Hello,
No, there is no "me" in charge of these bodily functions, it makes sense from a survival perspective that we don't have to will these functions. It simply happens. So that's what it means to rediscover "to simply be"? Am I not the doer of anything?
In fact its the phrase: "If now, this moment you stop believing you are a self, do you think these will stop?" that struck me the most. Like a bolt of lightning! Of course it won't stop. it's always been there, life happening.

Thank you for your answers Susanne.
I see that a change took place, but we will be looking more to all fields to see that it does not exist anywhere anyform..
Lets move on..

[adilerten]

As you can intellectually understand we cannot see-touch-smell-hear-taste this "i". It is not directly experienced.
We can only have thoughts about it. And content of the thought is not a real direct experience.
Does not give real results.
Then how do these thoughts work

Let's take a look

Sit silently for 10-15 minutes and focus on thought and ask and answer one by one please..

Wait for the next thought and look, where is it coming from and where is it going?
Tell me, do you know what the next thought will be before it arrives?
Can you stop a thought from coming?
LOOK CAREFULLY! Are you thinking thoughts or thoughts pop in by themselves?
Is I thought a special thought? Is it coming from the same place like all other thoughts, or.. ?
Is there a thinker?

Take a good look and write what you find out.

[Suzanne68]

As you can intellectually understand we cannot see-touch-smell-hear-taste this "i". It is not directly experienced.
We can only have thoughts about it. And content of the thought is not a real direct experience.
Does not give real results.
Then how do these thoughts work

Let's take a look

Sit silently for 10-15 minutes and focus on thought and ask and answer one by one please..

Wait for the next thought and look, where is it coming from and where is it going?
Tell me, do you know what the next thought will be before it arrives?
Can you stop a thought from coming?
LOOK CAREFULLY! Are you thinking thoughts or thoughts pop in by themselves?
Is I thought a special thought? Is it coming from the same place like all other thoughts, or.. ?
Is there a thinker?

Take a good look and write what you find out.

Hi! I have no idea where it is coming from
Or where it is going and it is impossible to know what the next thought will be. There’s a feeling accompanying the thoughts.
They seem to be popping out of nowhere and You get lost in them until you become aware of them. The come and go all the time.
The « I » thought is different, it is more permanent, more fixed, less fleeting. It doesn’t seem to come from the same place. I’m confused now... so there is a thinker of thoughts? But a thought is just a thought. I thoughts are the same as any other thoughts no?

[adilerten]

The « I » thought is different, it is more permanent, more fixed, less fleeting. It doesn’t seem to come from the same place.

Can you explain how is it different ?
Where is it when you don't think about it ?

I’m confused now... so there is a thinker of thoughts? But a thought is just a thought. I thoughts are the same as any other thoughts no?

:)
It's ok no need for confusion. Just simply look and see, sure thought is a thought!
Isnt "i" another content of the thought ?


and meanwhile let's look how automatic these thoughts happen,
Sit down and relax. Observe this focus of attention... see how it wanders. It simply focusses on whatever happens in the moment.
Now it might focus on thought. You might even "get lost in thought"...

Did you decide to get lost in thought? Or did it simply happen?
When "you" come back to present moment experiencing, did you control how/when this happened?
Can you control thought?
Or is this simply a constant flow, a constant change and movement..?
Can you control "i" thought arising ?

[adilerten]

and can you please locate this "thinker of thoughts" ?