The Gate

Hi BlakeBlue. :)



Thank you for the elaborate answers.
It touches me to see how the question starts to unfold in you ...
You are doing a great job in observing without conceptualising. Keep up the
good work, ok?



And yes, the belief in self is like a habit made by a lifetime of conditioning.
When you see through it, the knot starts to loosen, so to speak.



So, let’s revisit the questions and check how you looked and what you saw.

Right here and now, is there a “you” that is directing attention?
Is the stomach the “self?”



This time, please simply write yes or no, and nothing more.



In the meantime, let’s check if what you call “self” can really do
anything. So, for the rest of the day, try to catch the moment it seems to
be doing something, observe it, and see how that “doing” is perceived.



Warm regards,



Bananafish

Hi Bananafish,

Right here and now, is there a “you” that is directing attention?

No.

Is the stomach the “self?”

No.

In the meantime, let’s check if what you call “self” can really do
anything. So, for the rest of the day, try to catch the moment it seems to
be doing something, observe it, and see how that “doing” is perceived.

It seems 'self' is mainly thinking about doing deeds that were already done. It seems there is a lag between a happening, and the thinking about the happening. The 'self' claims the happening by thinking it did it, but today I observed that the actual event happens before the thought. While 'self' thinks it is doing things, it is actually really doing just this: thinking about doing. But it is not responsible for the deed, as the thought comes after the initial event.

Upon further inspection, I witnessed the false nature of 'self' because its attention can only be limited to one thought at the time - often unrelated to the present and actual course of events - while in an infinitely complex present countless events happen simultaneously. If 'self' would really control reality, if it really would be the driver, life would be a catastrophe, a rocky ride, with its limited focus, while life operates like a smooth drive, and happens seamlessly.

As I drove home today, I freaked out, because 'I' felt having no control, nor over actions, nor over attention. First I figured it could be the driving, because it is recognised by many as done on auto-pilot due to the habituation, but throughout the day, I witnessed the same in diverse situations: nor attention, nor the deeds were directed by me. (emotions though, are another story, but maybe we'll get to that). This distanced me from self, and it got 'me' deeper into the first person avatar feeling. I felt I was in a computer game, and the car was being driven by something which was not me. While it felt liberating in a way, because the pressure of control felt away, the unsettling part was: if I wasn't driving, then who was?

Greetings,
BlakeBlue

Good evening from Yokohama, Japan. :)

if I wasn't driving, then who was?

This is a very good question to investigate. :)




Was it really "driving?"



Is "driving" reality itself, or just a label put to something?
How is that "driving" perceived right now, in this very moment?



Best wishes,



Bananafish

Evening Bananafish,

Was it really "driving?"

With your pointing I realise it was not:

Only when a concept is defined, there can be a motion from here to there, or from inside and out.

Again, I feel the doing of something, completing a task, makes Self more manifest, and harder to stay in the present:

In the quiet dark things seem to be happening, but self is much more manifest as she feels bombarded with audible and visual cues in a changing environment, or when she is doing things. Then she feels like the doer of the deeds, the thinker of the thoughts, the feeler of the feelings.

Is "driving" reality itself, or just a label put to something?

It was a label "self" created by tying up moments into a string / story.

How is that "driving" perceived right now, in this very moment?

Right now I am not doing what "self" would call "driving", but 'writing to you', which I realise, is yet another concept.

Dissolving the concept of 'writing to you' by describing thoughts and images perceived in the present - back pain, the clenching of the teeth, the icy wind brushing my face, the pressure of the keys on the fingertips - I got confused. As we explored before, these too are concepts:

So heart is an image, an idea. (As are tape recorder and tingling). In case of heart language has called it beating. Mind says Self has a heart. Mind painted it red. Mind shaped it into a heart. While actually, all Self (concept) can say (concept) when she (concept) lies (concept) in the dark (concept) room (concept) with closed (concept) eyes (concept) is that things happen, and reality changes. Self has claimed these happenings to be hers. Self has called one of them 'heart', as self names everthing, and makes sense of happenings by images, concepts and ideas. A matrix, spun by Self's mind.

Over the last few days, you have pointed to my use of concepts, of images, and their relation to the present - or actually their separation thereof. Through your pointing, I now feel uneasy with writing, because I realise / feel that everything I can convey to you in words, here on Liberation Unleashed, about my current perception of reality, detracts me from it, and prevents me to experience no-self. I feel being present and using words to describe that present contradict each other, and I feel lost in world of symbols, a simulacrum of reality.

Can we explore no self by writing?

Wouldn't the only way for us to share it be by being together in physical time-space, to experience it directly?

Aren't you too a concept until we do?

Why am I talking to a concept? (And enjoying it? :))

Isn't BlakeBlue yet another story / character of the one she intends to wake up from - but a much more sly one, because she is, by writing, creating the character of no-character?

Should I use a little less words?

Good night,
BlakeBlue

Hi BlakeBlue. :)

Dissolving the concept of 'writing to you' by describing thoughts and images perceived in the present - back pain, the clenching of the teeth, the icy wind brushing my face, the pressure of the keys on the fingertips - I got confused. As we explored before, these too are concepts:

Could you feel that "confusion" and describe it? Is it a thought? A bodily sensation? An image? Or else?
It's ok to describe it freely, without worrying about being conceptual, but at the same time please
try to write only on what is happening here and now.

Through your pointing, I now feel uneasy with writing, because I realise / feel that everything I can convey to you in words, here on Liberation Unleashed, about my current perception of reality, detracts me from it, and prevents me to experience no-self. I feel being present and using words to describe that present contradict each other, and I feel lost in world of symbols, a simulacrum of reality.

If all concepts dropped, and still you had to express reality in a very short phrase to be written here,
how would you express it?

Can we explore no self by writing?

It is either seen through or not. And you can do the best to describe how you saw through the illusion of
separate self. When it's really seen through, it can be expressed in every possible way, while knowing
the limit of conveying reality using words. There's something in the wording of
those who have seen, and that will be known to the guides. So, no worries about communicating using
words, ok?

Wouldn't the only way for us to share it be by being together in physical time-space, to experience it directly?

Isn't it another belief, or deductive thinking?

Aren't you too a concept until we do?

Why am I talking to a concept? (And enjoying it? :))

Why don't you check this yourself? :)
How do you perceive me (Bananafish) to whom you are replying?

Isn't BlakeBlue yet another story / character of the one she intends to wake up from - but a much more sly one, because she is, by writing, creating the character of no-character?

Who is writing this? Can you find one?
Please, as you write, look for the one who is writing this.

Should I use a little less words?

Don't worry about this. I deliberately pick the points that are essential and cut
those that are not. Please don't get mad when I don't respond to everything you write ... lol
I'm doing it on purpose.



Warm regards,



Bananafish

Hi BlakeBlue!



Just to let you know that I’m thinking about
starting Skype sessions. It’s going to be a 60 min.
free session, exchanged with an honest testimonial
from the client.



If you are interested, please let me know.



Warm regards,



Bananafish

Hi Bananafish,

First of all:

Please don't get mad when I don't respond to everything you write ... lol
I'm doing it on purpose.

I trust you and this proces, so I'm not at all mad, if anything, I'm grateful :)... I already felt there was a reason. Please cut whatever you like, I feel I could use some :).

Could you feel that "confusion" and describe it? Is it a thought? A bodily sensation? An image? Or else?

This confusion is a thought, accompanied with bodily sensations and emotions (emotions which I feel might be a combination of thoughts that are almost like images, and bodily sensations, in an overwhelming symbiosis). I've located the bodily sense of self, and the confusion, in my forehead: I feel my facial muscles contract when there are thoughts - thoughts that play almost like a movie: with vague images and the sound of 'Selfs' voice echoing the words that the fingers type.

If all concepts dropped, and still you had to express reality in a very short phrase to be written here,
how would you express it?

Things happening, reality changing.

When it's really seen through, it can be expressed in every possible way, while knowing
the limit of conveying reality using words. There's something in the wording of
those who have seen, and that will be known to the guides. So, no worries about communicating using
words, ok?

It must be wonderful to experience it. And ok for the words, I'll keep using them :).

Why don't you check this yourself? :)
How do you perceive me (Bananafish) to whom you are replying?

Sometimes you are an image / a picture, which might be another splinter of Self.

Who is writing this? Can you find one?
Please, as you write, look for the one who is writing this.

I feel Self becomes manifest in the deliberation of words, and the translation into a language which is not her own.

In that sense, maybe a Skype-call would be a good idea :), it might prevent from deliberating too much, and being more in the present to observe.

But would it be possible to record the talk - I'd like to go over our process later? (Or would you disadvise because it sustains intellectualisation and attachment?).

Warm regards,
BlakeBlue

Hi BlakeBlue. :)

I've located the bodily sense of self, and the confusion, in my forehead: I feel my facial muscles contract when there are thoughts - thoughts that play almost like a movie: with vague images and the sound of 'Selfs' voice echoing the words that the fingers type.

Ok, and what suggests that the contraction is related to "self?"



What makes that "voice" something by the "self?"



Without referring to any assumption or imagination, can you say that
they have something to do with the "self?"

Sometimes you are an image / a picture, which might be another splinter of Self.

How do you perceive yourself?

Who is writing this? Can you find one?
Please, as you write, look for the one who is writing this.

I feel Self becomes manifest in the deliberation of words, and the translation into a language which is not her own.

Can you see that you didn't directly answer my question? :)


I wasn't asking how "Self" (as you call it) manifests.
I asked who is writing this, and if you can find one.


So, let's have a look again.



Who is writing this?



Can you find one (yes or no)?

In that sense, maybe a Skype-call would be a good idea :), it might prevent from deliberating too much, and being more in the present to observe.

But would it be possible to record the talk - I'd like to go over our process later? (Or would you disadvise because it sustains intellectualisation and attachment?).

No problem at all about recording the talk. I'll be sending you a private message, so that
we can decide when we're going to have a Skype session.



Best wishes,



Bananafish

Hi Bananafish,

Ok, and what suggests that the contraction is related to "self?"

Now I'm writing to you again: nothing. It is another image referring to a single facet in a complex universe of happenings.

What makes that "voice" something by the "self?"

It is not. The "voice" is another concept for another happening with no self to credit for.

Without referring to any assumption or imagination, can you say that
they have something to do with the "self?"

No, they don't. Because both contraction and voice are happenings, and self is non-existent.

How do you perceive yourself?

There is nothing right now I can refer to as self.

Who is writing this?

The writing too is a happening: no-one is writing it.

Can you find one (yes or no)?

No, no-one.


Have a good night,
BlakeBlue

Great answers, BlakeBlue. :)
Do you sense any kind of shift, taking place?
Probably a subtle one?



Warm regards,



Bananafish

Hi Bananafish,

Do you sense any kind of shift, taking place?
Probably a subtle one?

I felt the shift start a few days ago. But I would say it is unfolding and deepening day-by-day with your pointing, and by watching the present. The shift, and the realisation of the illusion of I, made a sense of ease descend upon me, but it is brittle, like a young rose enduring its first winter. Thoughts / emotions still manifest themselves in heated moments (I'm going through a violent transition phase regarding way of life, professional choices with though deadlines, a lot of thinking, and little sleep), and the thinking and planning that is needed for my professional career, and the sleep deficiency make the self more manifest, and the seeing through harder. When I sit back from these thinking activities, as with the writing yesterday, I can see there is no self writing it /no self thinking it, that there is not even anyone having a professional career, and that all of this is one big story. But if it requires such conscious effort to realize, is this then just an idea?

When I feel overwhelmed or when I catch my'self', then I point, as if it would be you pointing, by asking myself the questions you asked me, and that understanding helps me to see the illusionary nature, and see that there is no I undergoing these changes, no I doing any of this, no thinker scheming all of this, and no-one with ambitions.

So I experience a definite change, but is it still too much of a rational effort?

As the thread name of another forum member suggest: Did I 'get it but don't got it'?

Can one expect from this process that all thoughts and daily worries are experienced as happenings, without pointing, all the time, even in the most heated moments? Can we pursue our thinking careers and ambitions (which oddly enough I realize are concepts), while realising that this thinking is not done by us? We need to eat don't we (another idea - and with that thought I feel myself slipping into the matrix rabbit hole again)? Doesn't for example academic thinking, or fiction writing require us to go deep into the thought and being identified with it / and hence being identified with self? I become thought when I write. I become thought when I analyse or plan. Seeing that I am not the one doing it, at the moment of doing it, seems contradictory to the nature of this type of thinking. Don't these activities require us to be transported to Self, and to use it as a vehicle?

Can this feeling of no-self only last when we go up the holy mountain to meditate? Or can we pop the illusion entirely, and get to the state where we see that holy mountain and rational thinking are actually all of the same fabric: all concepts, and one big illusion created by the self that labels and storifies 'holy mountain' and 'rational thinking' as different, and hierarchies them on that basis? I can write a wonderful theory on that, yesterday I even mapped my perceived reality into a picture (how pretentious), but now I'm completely thrown back with the realisation that I'm completely absorbed in the matrix again, and I'm afraid and ashamed I didn't get it. On moments like these, I feel I'm losing my mind and I feel there's a fine line between liberation and madness.

This was answered after an intense days of non-stop work - I have barely gotten away from my computer and realize I haven't eaten yet (all concepts, all a story!) - I feel deeply entangled in the maze of self. I figured of not sending this message, but then again... You asked me to answer your questions in utmost honesty: while I doubt what that means at this point: the self is a lying illusion, and I am her right now.

I'll answer your pm.

Warm regards,
BlakeBlue

Note on BlakeBlue’s background story: maybe her persona as a professional storyteller gives you some insight in her process and writing and why it is so easy / comfortable / likeable for her to detract from the present and get lost in a universe of stories, persona, images, thoughts and words... But maybe it can be a way out of it too?

Hi BlakeBlue. :)

I can see there is no self writing it /no self thinking it, that there is not even anyone having a professional career, and that all of this is one big story. But if it requires such conscious effort to realize, is this then just an idea?

"Effort" is an idea; I would say "looking again and again" instead, which is a bit closer to reality.
And every single look is new; no past, no future, nothing to be practiced and attained. Just looking.
Like the summer breeze that suddenly comes into the room. Always fresh, nothing to be accumulated.
It is there to be sensed, enjoyed, and let go.


Isn't it beautiful? You will know this as you continue on looking. :)


I see any problem in what you are trying right now. Keep up your good work, BlakeBlue!

When I feel overwhelmed or when I catch my'self', then I point, as if it would be you pointing, by asking myself the questions you asked me, and that understanding helps me to see the illusionary nature, and see that there is no I undergoing these changes, no I doing any of this, no thinker scheming all of this, and no-one with ambitions.

You're doing great, actually! :) I went through the same process of looking again and again,
and that, looking back now, was like a gift given, since every time I looked, the sight (so to speak)
became clearer.

Seeing that I am not the one doing it, at the moment of doing it, seems contradictory to the nature of this type of thinking. Don't these activities require us to be transported to Self, and to use it as a vehicle?

There's no problem in functioning that way, as long as you don't blindly believe that
they are real. It's like playing a role in a drama. If you play a role, you know that you aren't the
character, while you can perform it perfectly, with enthusiasm. Does this analogy make sense?

The problem is in believing that you are the character itself, which is ridiculous if an actor
really does it. :)

Can this feeling of no-self only last when we go up the holy mountain to meditate? Or can we pop the illusion entirely, and get to the state where we see that holy mountain and rational thinking are actually all of the same fabric: all concepts, and one big illusion created by the self that labels and storifies 'holy mountain' and 'rational thinking' as different, and hierarchies them on that basis?

There seem to be subtle beliefs in this part, so let me ask a couple of questions ...


1. What is "the feeling of no-self?" Is it something that sometimes lasts and sometimes doesn't?

2. Is no-self a state to be reached?

This was answered after an intense days of non-stop work - I have barely gotten away from my computer and realize I haven't eaten yet (all concepts, all a story!) - I feel deeply entangled in the maze of self. I figured of not sending this message, but then again... You asked me to answer your questions in utmost honesty: while I doubt what that means at this point: the self is a lying illusion, and I am her right now.

I hope you can take a bit of rest, and a good night's sleep! :)


Could you describe what "the maze of self" is like?


Best wishes,


Bananafish

Note on BlakeBlue’s background story: maybe her persona as a professional storyteller gives you some insight in her process and writing and why it is so easy / comfortable / likeable for her to detract from the present and get lost in a universe of stories, persona, images, thoughts and words... But maybe it can be a way out of it too?

Sure! Writing in a creative way definitely helps; it can break through the beliefs and conditionings
we hold by holding onto secondhand words, concepts, and knowledge.


Please feel free to be creative in expressing what is seen, heard, felt,
smelled, and tasted. :)

Hi Bananafish,

I loved reading your answer.

"Effort" is an idea; I would say "looking again and again" instead, which is a bit closer to reality.
And every single look is new; no past, no future, nothing to be practiced and attained. Just looking.
Like the summer breeze that suddenly comes into the room. Always fresh, nothing to be accumulated.
It is there to be sensed, enjoyed, and let go.


Isn't it beautiful? You will know this as you continue on looking. :)

I'm starting to experience it. It is indeed like a summer breeze: careless, weightless, effortless...


BlakeBlue had constructed a wonderful story of complex trauma, and while she worked a lot on it, and she was already fairly well when she came here, she now realises that these therapies were like stitches for a gaping wound. Surely the stitches helped to heal the wound. But the wound became a scar, and that scar left the mark of victimhood on BlakeBlue's persona. But what if she wouldn't need plasters, or stitches, ever again, because there was never any wound to begin with? No-one to get hurt? And no victim?

This realisation is precious :).

(I believe the time needs to be right to see though - I'm not sure if you can explore no-self when you're dealing with PTSD).

You're doing great, actually! :) I went through the same process of looking again and again,
and that, looking back now, was like a gift given, since every time I looked, the sight (so to speak)
became clearer.

I'm thinking it would be nice to have some kind of markers throughout the day. Lucid dreaming is trained like this. Like an alarm clock, a beep, or maybe even a message of someone pointing to inspect reality throughout the day. Maybe such app exists... I'll explore.

It's like playing a role in a drama. If you play a role, you know that you aren't the
character, while you can perform it perfectly, with enthusiasm. Does this analogy make sense?

Yes, it does :). Although Jim Carrey turns it around when talking about his own realisation of the false I:

'And at a certain point I realised: 'hey wait a second - if it is so easy to lose Jim Carrey, who the hell is Jim Carrey?'

The problem is in believing that you are the character itself, which is ridiculous if an actor
really does it. :)

I think serious actors might slip into another skin entirely. (Something which The Stanislavski method acting was after). I can imagine there are actors that have lost their minds by acting...

1. What is "the feeling of no-self?" Is it something that sometimes lasts and sometimes doesn't?

When I am tired, it's hard to not slip into my old skin, and be identified with the character and the thoughts. Then it's though to realize there is no-one there listening to the thoughts, but just things randomly happening.

2. Is no-self a state to be reached?

No, because nothing can be reached if there is no-one to reach it.

Could you describe what "the maze of self" is like?

Entanglements in / identification with thoughts, beliefs and memories.

Please feel free to be creative in expressing what is seen, heard, felt,
smelled, and tasted. :)

Thank you, that is liberating :),

Have a wonderful morning,
BlakeBlue