No More Delusion Please

[Zafu]

I keep trying to go "back one level" to see what caused this or that to happen, but that only leads to more thinking and not direct experience.

Is/was there an "I" that cound do this?
Was it under your control?
Or was it just an other thought that arouse?
Even this thoughts are direct experience! (But the content of thought not)

There is no "I" that can "go back one level". It is just more thinking!

. I then wondered, what does it mean to be "lost in thought". This really confused me.

it is like a fatamorgana. You see an oasis in the desert. As long as it is believed, the whole organism responds. Energy is provided to run there. The body is moving. After it is seen for what it is: an Illusion, all this unnecessary actions stop. Maybe there is still the visual image of the oasis. the image does not disappear (like thoughts) but the illusion is seen through.
Does this help?

Ah yes, that helps!

In direct experience the banana is non-existent. Bananas (any physical object) appear out of nothing and disappear out of nothing just like thoughts.

Don't miss the direct experience that is there!
Banana itself is a lable, but there is the seen, maybe the sensed, the smelld, the tasted (when you eat it)?
We can't say this object banana exist. there is no proof.
But can we say it does'nt exist? any proof?
There is perception. Thats it. Anything more that is sure?

Oh I meant that when I turn my eyes away from the 'banana', that the 'object seen in direct experience' is no longer there just like the direct experience of thoughts come and go too.

But yes, there is the perceptions of this "thing" and that's it.

I then wondered, thoughts appear all on their own whether I want them to or not. Does this make my life lack free will?

Can you find any free will?

No I cannot find any free will.

What about a persons decision to do "consciousness work" (like this) to free themselves of "self" and "controlling thoughts". How does this make sense? Thoughts on their own just steer towards liberation from 'self' one day?

I will do "consciousness work" is just a thought, right?
Some people think this thought and do it, other think it again and agian and never did it.
Thoughts arise. No control. You found that out.
Wahts about action and decision?

Lets do another experiment:
1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down.
2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.
Don't go to thoughts, examine your direct experience.
Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:
What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?
What is it that is controlling the hand?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
Can anything be found that makes the hand move?
How is the decision made?

Looking forward to your findings ......
Warmly
Verananda

Here is what I found in the order of realization...

- Mental activity/thoughts "choose" which hand goes up. It's not really thoughts "choosing". There is simply a thought of "right or left". Sometimes this is followed by a physical sensation in the left or right arm. The right or left arm then goes up or sometimes there is a thought of "no let's ignore that decision" and the arm doesn't go up.
- In direct experience, there is nothing choosing what the thoughts consist of. These thoughts just pop up. Their contents are "left" or "right". It happens beyond any knowing of how it happens. It just does.
- I cannot find anyone or anything that is doing the choosing. I cannot find anything that is doing the controlling.
- There is a thought that "my thoughts are controlling my hand" but this too is just a thought...
- I can't seem to verify that thoughts can "MAKE" a hand move.. There is really just a thought, then a hand moving. Their seems to be a correlation between the thought content and corresponding hand movement, but this is just another thought content which is not direct experience.
- I have no idea how my hand goes up in direct experience. It just does.

I'm bussy the next 2 days. Take some time for the questions and investigation.
My next post will be on sunday.
have fun verananda

Awesome, talk to you Sunday!

[Verananda]

Hi Zafu,

yes, thats right. No connection between thought and action, no controller, no choosing can be found.

We will look a bit deeper into this:

I can't seem to verify that thoughts can "MAKE" a hand move.. There is really just a thought, then a hand moving. Their seems to be a correlation between the thought content and corresponding hand movement, but this is just another thought content which is not direct experience.

You found out, that there is a thought and then hand moving.
We will look if it is always this way or if there are other ways ...
e.g.
- moving without thought.
- moving (like going to the fridge) and thoughts that arise after movement has started like "I will go to the frigde now, get some milk ..." - so without a close look it seems as a decision but with closer look first was movement and afterwards thoughts babbling ....

you can do the exercise agin with focussing this question.
and you can observe everyday activities regarding this question.

wamly verananda

[Zafu]

Ok so I kept these questions in mind with just regular activity.

- Sometimes there are thoughts with content and an action that follows it according to the content. Although the action and thought content seems similar, I still cannot say in direct experience that the thought "causes" the action.

- Sometimes there are just actions without any thought. This is the case for the majority of actions actually.

- Sometimes, there are actions, and seemingly at the same time, or a little bit after the initiation of the action, their are thought contents that are relevant to it. These thought contents are often a story of the "self". One random example of this was when I started touching my chin while pondering something. The touching of the chin happened all on its own, and then I noticed I was touching my chin. Then I had thoughts that consisted of something along the lines of "I am pondering stuff that's why I am touching my chin".

[Verananda]

Hi Zafu,

thats great!

In your intro you said, what you want is a "direct experience of 'no-self'".
Please tell me, where are you now?
We found out a lot of truth about "I", thoughts, controlling, decision and free will.

what is open from your side?
What has changed since beginning of our dialog?
What is different or experienced different in everyday life?

love
verananda

[Zafu]

In your intro you said, what you want is a "direct experience of 'no-self'".
Please tell me, where are you now?
We found out a lot of truth about "I", thoughts, controlling, decision and free will.

what is open from your side?
What has changed since beginning of our dialog?
What is different or experienced different in everyday life?

I'm not sure where I am now actually.. I keep telling myself these stories that "direct experience of no-self" is some big event and I keep looking for it, but I then realize that's just a thought based on beliefs and assumptions, none of which are based on truth.

What has changed so far is that, since our last big experiment regarding free will, decision, thoughts, etc.. I sometimes see reality now as just one big dream world or show. The people are all moving within the dream, and "I" am too. My body, my thoughts, my decisions are all just happening like there was a script of some sort that I am not allowed to be aware of... This "insight" doesn't last too long though as I more thought contens/mirages keep bombarding me and getting me out of direct experience lol.

I remember when I did the experiment and I first started seeing this whole world as one dream where everything is just happening on its own, my conditioned mind it seems did not like it and tried to shy away from it lol!

I don't know, where I am though. I still "feel" like I need to keep going further...

[Verananda]

Hi Zafu

I keep telling myself these stories that "direct experience of no-self" is some big event and I keep looking for it, but I then realize that's just a thought based on beliefs and assumptions, none of which are based on truth.

thats right. just thoughts.
who is looking? Isn't this I that is looking and that realizes even thoughts?

For some seeing through the illusion is something big, for others not more than clarity with gentler changes afterwards ..... there are as much versions of it as seeings of truth ... but the spectacular stories are better to tell ... :-)

Beeing here and now is very simple.
Can you be not here and now?
Trying to be here and now is nothing more than thinking?
Do you see this?
Same with trying not to think, calm down the mind, getting ride of unpleasant thoughts, wanting bliss ..... and so on.
Do you see this?
Who is responsible for your current mind state?

I sometimes see reality now as just one big dream world or show. The people are all moving within the dream, and "I" am too. My body, my thoughts, my decisions are all just happening like there was a script of some sort that I am not allowed to be aware of... This "insight" doesn't last too long though as I more thought contens/mirages keep bombarding me and getting me out of direct experience lol.

That sounds good! If it is a real insight, if it is seen, something will change. Don't hang on states. They come and go. What remains unchanged?
We need to look at "My body, my thoughts, my decisions" next. Sometimes even after seeing through the illusion we use words like "I, me, mine", because it is needed for communication. But it is important to see if it is just just because of practial reasons or if there seems to be something special with it. So look again. Whats the difference between "my body" and "body", "my decision" and "decision" ....?
Is there an observer of all of this?

I don't know, where I am though. I still "feel" like I need to keep going further...

thats good! :-)
what we do here is looking for this "I", "Me" and all the illusion around it. When it is totaly clear the gateless gate is passt. But thats not the end of seeing through illusion. There are some more illusions like "subject/object", separation and time. We made a little trip there in the 2D3D experiment.

warmly verananda

[Zafu]

I keep telling myself these stories that "direct experience of no-self" is some big event and I keep looking for it, but I then realize that's just a thought based on beliefs and assumptions, none of which are based on truth.

thats right. just thoughts.
who is looking? Isn't this I that is looking and that realizes even thoughts?

For some seeing through the illusion is something big, for others not more than clarity with gentler changes afterwards ..... there are as much versions of it as seeings of truth ... but the spectacular stories are better to tell ... :-)

Beeing here and now is very simple.
Can you be not here and now?
Trying to be here and now is nothing more than thinking?
Do you see this?
Same with trying not to think, calm down the mind, getting ride of unpleasant thoughts, wanting bliss ..... and so on.
Do you see this?
Who is responsible for your current mind state?

Yes you're right, whenever I have the feeling or whatever of "no-self should be something bigger, this can't be it...", that is just another thought. This "I" looking for some big experience is just another thought. It's like a direct experience of "no-self" is obviously a direct experience and not a thought content, and yet whatever it is that I imagine this experience to be, even something obscure, I am only limited to imagining thought contents. Whatever it is, it's a thought content and therefore cannot be the direct experience of no-self.

Beeing here and now is very simple.
Can you be not here and now?
Trying to be here and now is nothing more than thinking?
Do you see this?
Same with trying not to think, calm down the mind, getting ride of unpleasant thoughts, wanting bliss ..... and so on.
Do you see this?

Experience is only here and now. Yes, how can one 'try' to be here and now when they are always here and now. It sounds very silly now to see that when I used to say "UGH! I need to be here now in the present moment!" was just putting myself in an illusion. Getting lost in "thought contents/mirages".

Who is responsible for your current mind state?

I don't know. I can't help but think this all falls under determinism. There is no "one" responsible. Mind states just seem to happen. It is an illusion that "I" am changing my state from "being lost in the beliefs of thought contents" to "direct experience"

I sometimes see reality now as just one big dream world or show. The people are all moving within the dream, and "I" am too. My body, my thoughts, my decisions are all just happening like there was a script of some sort that I am not allowed to be aware of... This "insight" doesn't last too long though as I more thought contens/mirages keep bombarding me and getting me out of direct experience lol.

That sounds good! If it is a real insight, if it is seen, something will change. Don't hang on states. They come and go. What remains unchanged?
We need to look at "My body, my thoughts, my decisions" next. Sometimes even after seeing through the illusion we use words like "I, me, mine", because it is needed for communication. But it is important to see if it is just just because of practial reasons or if there seems to be something special with it. So look again. Whats the difference between "my body" and "body", "my decision" and "decision" ....?
Is there an observer of all of this?

There is no body that belongs to "me", nor decisions, nor thoughts. Even as I type this, I do not see an owner 'self' that is deciding the thoughts and decision to type out these thoughts.

There is no observer of the decisions or thoughts or body. There is just the observation of it. Again, it's just like a show... "I" am paradoxically the show and the viewer at the same time.

[Zafu]

I sometimes see reality now as just one big dream world or show. The people are all moving within the dream, and "I" am too. My body, my thoughts, my decisions are all just happening like there was a script of some sort that I am not allowed to be aware of... This "insight" doesn't last too long though as I more thought contens/mirages keep bombarding me and getting me out of direct experience lol.

That sounds good! If it is a real insight, if it is seen, something will change. Don't hang on states. They come and go. What remains unchanged?

I forgot to answer this part.

The realization in direct experience is unchanged.

[Verananda]

Hi Zafu

wunderful ! yes to all ......

Again, it's just like a show... "I" am paradoxically the show and the viewer at the same time.

:-)

The realization in direct experience is unchanged.

Please explain this a bit more! What exactly seems to change and what stays unchaged?
(your answere is too short so I can not definitly see if its that)


I have one more exercise for you regarding the idea of a seperate entity "the body" ...
Please close your eyes for this exercise, just notice any ‘mental’ images or thoughts that
appear and put them aside.
Place a hand on a desk or table (flat surface) - Close your eyes.
Now 'go to' the feeling/sensation which we would normally refer to as 'hand on desk' and
answer from what you can FIND.
1) How many things do you find? Are there two things (hand and desk) or is there one
thing – sensation?
2) Can a ‘feeler’ be found in 'what is being felt'?
3) Do you notice 'one thing feeling another thing'? Or is there just 'a sensation'?
4) Do you find an 'I', a body, a hand 'feeling' . . . or is there just 'a sensation'?
What do you find?
Can an INHERENT FEELER be found? Would anything that is suggested as the feeler,
be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

warmly verananda

[Zafu]

The realization in direct experience is unchanged.

Please explain this a bit more! What exactly seems to change and what stays unchaged?
(your answere is too short so I can not definitly see if its that)

I'm not exactly sure what remains unchanged now actually. I just meant that in direct experience, it remains that "I" am aware that reality is just a show that goes on all on its own whether "I" like it or not, cause there is no "I". Not sure if this is "UNCHANGED" as when I am not in direct experience (by conceptually defining things and being "lost in beliefs and thought contents") I forget this realization.

I have one more exercise for you regarding the idea of a seperate entity "the body" ...
Please close your eyes for this exercise, just notice any ‘mental’ images or thoughts that
appear and put them aside.
Place a hand on a desk or table (flat surface) - Close your eyes.
Now 'go to' the feeling/sensation which we would normally refer to as 'hand on desk' and
answer from what you can FIND.
1) How many things do you find? Are there two things (hand and desk) or is there one
thing – sensation?
2) Can a ‘feeler’ be found in 'what is being felt'?
3) Do you notice 'one thing feeling another thing'? Or is there just 'a sensation'?
4) Do you find an 'I', a body, a hand 'feeling' . . . or is there just 'a sensation'?
What do you find?
Can an INHERENT FEELER be found? Would anything that is suggested as the feeler,
be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

warmly verananda

To answer all the questions, there is never a "feeler" or "owner of the sensation" in direct experience. There is only a "sensation". Just the one sensation. Everytime I see a separation between "hand and table" or "my hand and foreign object" or whatever, I realize I am mentally projecting beliefs and thoughts on the experience. All there is truly is, is the sensation.

[Verananda]

Hi Zafu

To answer all the questions, there is never a "feeler" or "owner of the sensation" in direct experience. There is only a "sensation". Just the one sensation. Everytime I see a separation between "hand and table" or "my hand and foreign object" or whatever, I realize I am mentally projecting beliefs and thoughts on the experience. All there is truly is, is the sensation.

yes
:-)

The realization in direct experience is unchanged.

I'm not exactly sure what remains unchanged now actually. I just meant that in direct experience, it remains that "I" am aware that reality is just a show that goes on all on its own whether "I" like it or not, cause there is no "I". Not sure if this is "UNCHANGED" as when I am not in direct experience (by conceptually defining things and being "lost in beliefs and thought contents") I forget this realization.

We need a direct experience! :-)
This sounds more like thoughts about?!
We will investigate this within a simpler exercise similar to the other hand-exercises:
1. Place one hand on a table in front of you, palm down.
2. Rest for a moment and then raise this hand in the air
3. Rest for a moment and then place this hand on the table agian
4. Rest for a moment and then raise this hand in the air
... and so on again and again for a period of time.

While doing this first check out all you found in the last hand exercise. Should be the same with feeler, owner, sensation? Its good to check this again several times even if it is seen before - that helps old beliefs to fade out!
The important new question is: What is changing and what stays same during the whole period of exercise?
Find out in direct experience!
Do it several time during the next one to two days.
Report what you found!

love
verananda

[Zafu]

We need a direct experience! :-)
This sounds more like thoughts about?!
We will investigate this within a simpler exercise similar to the other hand-exercises:
1. Place one hand on a table in front of you, palm down.
2. Rest for a moment and then raise this hand in the air
3. Rest for a moment and then place this hand on the table agian
4. Rest for a moment and then raise this hand in the air
... and so on again and again for a period of time.

While doing this first check out all you found in the last hand exercise. Should be the same with feeler, owner, sensation? Its good to check this again several times even if it is seen before - that helps old beliefs to fade out!
The important new question is: What is changing and what stays same during the whole period of exercise?
Find out in direct experience!
Do it several time during the next one to two days.
Report what you found!

Ok I did this yesterday and did it again today. I will simply report what I found in direct experience in the same order that I made during my investigation.

- Same as before, there is just a sensation, no owner or feeler of the sensation. Just the sensation.
- As I raise my hand in the air and put the hand back on the table, I notice the sensation of "hand on table" being present and then no longer being present.
- I realized this is what "changes"
- I then realized what stays the same throughout the exercise is the "awareness" or "alert observing" of the sensation and also the 'lack of sensation'
- I then closely observed the "hand in air" state and realized this is a sensation too. I still feel a sensation
- I then asked my self, what is the difference between this sensation and the sensation of my hand on table
- I answered to myself, "it feels different because hand on table is more 'like this' while hand in air is more 'like that'"
- I then realized I am conceptualizing the sensations
- In direct experience, I realized they are both just sensations
- I then realized sensations are also never changing. There is always "sensations", and the differentiations between "different sensations" are created by my thinking, or simply only existing as thought contents and not in direct experience
- I then asked my self, "so sensations AND awareness BOTH are always staying the same?"
- I then realized they are the same thing. "I" cannot be aware of anything without "things" to be aware of (sensations). The 'seer' and the 'seen' are one and the same.

[Verananda]

Hi zafu

Fine! Seems that perspective has changed since beginning of our journey!

So for the next few days, please observe during everyday life:
Since beginning of our journey what has remained the same?
what has changed? How is life different now?
Do it relaxed and curious. There is no right or wrong answer.
report daily what you have found.

Warmly verananda

[Zafu]

So for the next few days, please observe during everyday life:
Since beginning of our journey what has remained the same?
what has changed? How is life different now?
Do it relaxed and curious. There is no right or wrong answer.
report daily what you have found.

Honestly, I'm not sure what has changed and what has remained the same.

I am attaching to experiences as a 'self' less often. I catch my thought contents/mirages as not "direct experience" more frequently than before. I see other people and the world differently at times now. I see them as all part of this single experience of some cosmic show. There are a couple of times, not too often, that I don't see people as people anymore. I don't mean this in some weird sinister way. I just mean that I don't label them as "people" but instead see it all as one thing. This helps me not take anything personally. This allows me to show more compassion.

Other than that I don't know what else has changed. Like I mentioned before, I keep thinking that "there should be some big profound change" but I recognize those are just fantasies. I don't really care anymore.

In terms of what has stayed the same, I have no idea. I mean, everything is basically still the 'same'. I don't know how to answer this question lol

[Verananda]

Hi Zafu

sounds good!

I see them as all part of this single experience of some cosmic show.

And where are "you" in this show?
Are you experiencing this show?
Tell me how it is!

There are a couple of times, not too often, that I don't see people as people anymore. I don't mean this in some weird sinister way. I just mean that I don't label them as "people" but instead see it all as one thing. This helps me not take anything personally. This allows me to show more compassion.

"taking something personaly" what is that in Direct experience?
Are you able to show more compassion or is it more like "compassion rises and is experieced"?
Please check this honestly how it is experienced!
we do not have to cut the word "I" in our language, its a fine tool for comunication, but we have to check what is experienced.

Other than that I don't know what else has changed. Like I mentioned before, I keep thinking that "there should be some big profound change" but I recognize those are just fantasies. I don't really care anymore.

:-) that realy sounds like a big change !!!

I mean, everything is basically still the 'same'. I don't know how to answer this question lol

yes! when an illusion is revealed, nothing has disappeared or added. Just an old belief is seen for what it is!

Keep on observing and reporting for a few days: ... what has changed and what remained same?
dont think about. observe in a relaxed way. Maybe something new pops up or not ..... no right or wrong!

love verananda