All there is

[JonathanR]

Hi Emanon,

Thank you for letting me know. Yoga, by any chance?

Actually I was going to let you know that I am not going to be able to post over this coming weekend.

When you get the chance reply but I understand you're in India.

When you say 'body' we have been exploring senses already and you seem to have been making interesting discoveries? We can do more of that. The purpose of those exercises is to look to find out if 'I an in my body' is true or not, based on immediate experience rather than theory. What aspect of body experience would you like to explore? Where does the issue lie?

Emotions are a good one to look at as these can play a part in the illusion that there is a self that 'has' them.

All the best,

Jon

[Emanon]

Hi Jon,

hope you had a good weekend.

Yoga, by any chance?

No, just holidays.

Thank you for your answers which are great to read. Seems you have been doing some important work! 'Funny confusing and scary' can all happen once beliefs are seen for what they are and begin to crumble. When did this falling start to happen?

Thank you!
The falling started in March this year. I had worked through the exercises in The Direct Path by Greg Goode and then read the Gatecrashers and some topics on the Gate when suddenly something snapped. It was almost audible. First shock and fear ("OMG this is real") - and then I laughed for hours. "What a joke!" For about a week I felt almost weightless, relaxed in a way I had never felt before, the center around which everything had seemingly revolved was not felt anymore, what happened just happened to no one - wonderful.

Then the feeling of falling appeared. The ground on which I had imagined to stand (beliefs, concepts) was gone. Whatever I tried to grasp crumbled. Nothing to hold on to. This process is ongoing. And as the crumbling beliefs and concepts are not replaced by new ones it feels as if less and less is known. Funnily it doesn't matter. The urge to know seems to be replaced by the urge to just see what is.

So, can you say with a big fat 'yes' that the illusion of 'self' is seen? From reading your intro its possible that you have doubts or questions that you'd like to investigate? If so I'm more than happy for us to talk them through here.

I can safely say the illusion of 'self' is SEEN in the sense of: wherever I look there is no self. But as you suggested there are doubts and questions, Somehow there seems to be a lingering expectation that it should FEEL differently. That's why I proposed to look into body sensations, feelings, emotions.

And while writing this I remembered what was said in the list of what LU is not:

This is not about freedom from emotions and intense feelings.

This is not about getting rid of self, ego, I.

Hmm! Definitely something to look at.

Love

Emanon

[JonathanR]

Hello Emanon,

Thanks for your post.

You seem to be doing fine. You're examining and questioning your actual experience. That's all it takes.

wherever I look there is no self. But as you suggested there are doubts and questions, Somehow there seems to be a lingering expectation that it should FEEL differently. That's why I proposed to look into body sensations, feelings, emotions.

And while writing this I remembered what was said in the list of what LU is not:

This is not about freedom from emotions and intense feelings.

This is not about getting rid of self, ego, I.

Hmm! Definitely something to look at.

Well done.

Yes, 'getting rid of ego,' is very ironic because how do you get rid of what was never 'there,'?

And yet an idea remains, perhaps an expectation? that something ought to change, is supposed to change? Needs to be seen to have changed,?

And its perfectly possible to overlook that subtle but significant shift of simply seeing that 'self' is a belief and that all sorts of beliefs can now be seen for what they are.and drop away.

Does this help at all?

Love

Jon

[Emanon]

Hi Jon,

I'll start with your last question

Does this help at all?

Yes, it absolutely does. Your questions and comments helped me to take a fresh look and writing the answers, trying to get as close as possibbe to the actual experience, rephrasing ... helped to see more clearly. So, thanks again.

Yes, 'getting rid of ego,' is very ironic because how do you get rid of what was never 'there,'?

Yes, this is a good one. I understand (and I apparently sometimes forget) that this whole process is about realising what already is and not becoming something different.

And yet an idea remains, perhaps an expectation? that something ought to change, is supposed to change? Needs to be seen to have changed,?
And its perfectly possible to overlook that subtle but significant shift of simply seeing that 'self' is a belief and that all sorts of beliefs can now be seen for what they are.and drop away.

This seems to be a very important point. Apparently there was the expectation of some king of dramatic change. There definitely has been a shift. Paradoxically it feels as if nothing has changed and everything at the same time.
This dropping away of beliefs and concepts is what I observe. The implications of what is seen through are becoming more and more obvious.

We have looked into sense perceptions and saw that there is only seeing, hearing etc happening without a me doing it.

Could we have a look at body sensations and feelings and emotions? I guess they could be ideal hiding places for subtle a sense of me.

Love

Emanon

[JonathanR]

Ho Emanon

. Your questions and comments helped me to take a fresh look and writing the answers, trying to get as close as possibbe to the actual experience, rephrasing ... helped to see more clearly. So, thanks again

Great.

. I understand (and I apparently sometimes forget) that this whole process is about realising what already is and not becoming something different.

True. And sometimes it can be as effortless as simply noticing this?

. Apparently there was the expectation of some king of dramatic change. There definitely has been a shift. Paradoxically it feels as if nothing has changed and everything at the same time.
This dropping away of beliefs and concepts is what I observe. The implications of what is seen through are becoming more and more obvious.

Yes. And it may be quite unnecessary to 'do' anything particular or 'realize' anything specific in order for this process to deepen and expand. Though many who have crossed the gateless gate do seem interested in exploring "liberation" in various ways. The gate is really not the end of something except for many false beliefs.

. Could we have a look at body sensations and feelings and emotions? I guess they could be ideal hiding places for subtle a sense of me.

Could we have a look at body sensations and feelings and emotions? I guess they could be ideal hiding places for subtle a sense of me.[/quote]

Yes, sure. It would be very good if you could now take a look at some experiences of body sensations and emotions and identify some for us to look at that seem tied to identification as 'me' ? You know, some that seem to suggest that a 'self' is really ',having the sensation'?

love

Jon

[Emanon]

Hi Jon,

True. And sometimes it can be as effortless as simply noticing this?

.

The real thing is effortless in my experience. I tried effort a lot in the beginning. Apparently part of the conditioning: Results are the fruit of effort. Doesn't work like this. It seems more like bubbles rising and bursting when looked at.

Yes. And it may be quite unnecessary to 'do' anything particular or 'realize' anything specific in order for this process to deepen and expand. Though many who have crossed the gateless gate do seem interested in exploring "liberation" in various ways. The gate is really not the end of something except for many false beliefs.

.

The idea of being the doer has been seen through. The deepening and expanding is just happening. But the idea of doing something is so familiar that it is still felt in everyday situations. There are I-thoughts but they are recognized as thoughts.

There has been a lot of exploring and still is to some extent. But recently it has lost its urge. Who wants to know, to understand? And somehow it became obvious that thought/mind is ultimately the wrong tool, couldn't grasp the experience, couldn't go there.

Yes, sure. It would be very good if you could now take a look at some experiences of body sensations and emotions and identify some for us to look at that seem tied to identification as 'me' ? You know, some that seem to suggest that a 'self' is really ',having the sensation'?

I started looking at the body in general, only at sensations, sitting in a chair. What is felt? Just clusters of sensations here and there. They felt like tingling, like vibrations of various intensities. But these clusters were amorphous, there was no consistant body felt, no borders.Thoughts were actually connecting the dots like in a dot to dot drawing for children. No body felt. Oops.

As there was slight pain in the ankle I looked at that. It was the same vibrating sensation, only more intense, denser. To call this pain is just a label and it could not really be located. There was definitely a sensation. Something was felt.

And again the question by whom. It was apparent that there was no I doing the feeling. But still I was aware of it. Was I? There was definitely awareness of the sensation. But it felt as if the sensation and the awareness of it are one and the same. Subject (observer) and object (sensation) one.
This is an example where (my) thought/mind can't follow.

Then I looked at emotions. There was a pretty strong outburst of anger yesterday. The repercussions are still felt. I looked deeply and only found body sensations (contractions in the jaw, the hands, the belly) and thoughts. As we have looked into thoughts already and sensations seem to be just that, sensations. No me required.

But in the situation itself it felt so me and besides the anger there was guilt and regret. And of course I was held responsible by the 'victim'. And to say 'that wasn't me' was not an option ...

And now I will listen to the Ganges for a while ...

Love,

Emanon

[JonathanR]

And now I will listen to the Ganges for a while ...

How beautiful!

But these clusters were amorphous, there was no consistant body felt, no borders.Thoughts were actually connecting the dots like in a dot to dot drawing for children. No body felt. Oops.

Well, that's only where any of my questioning would have pointed. So it's good that this 'seeing' just happened as you took a look st 'the body'. But if any such sensations come up that really seem to place a 'you' inside a body, please let me know and we can work with that?

But it felt as if the sensation and the awareness of it are one and the same. Subject (observer) and object (sensation) one.
This is an example where (my) thought/mind can't follow.

Excellent.

Then I looked at emotions. There was a pretty strong outburst of anger yesterday. The repercussions are still felt. I looked deeply and only found body sensations (contractions in the jaw, the hands, the belly) and thoughts. As we have looked into thoughts already and sensations seem to be just that, sensations. No me required.

But in the situation itself it felt so me and besides the anger there was guilt and regret. And of course I was held responsible by the 'victim'. And to say 'that wasn't me' was not an option ...

Okay. Next time there is or are emotions that would seem to point to 'you' please notice the feelings. And as the feelings, anger or whatever, are experienced see if its possible to find out what such emotion actually is? Is there someone 'having' emotion or is emotion like another kind of sensation, an energy, that happens but doesn't necessarily happen to 'a person'?

Do such emotions seem to come with thoughts? Ideas about 'me'? Do the thoughts and feelings go together in some way to create a story of about an experiencer?

Enjoy India :-)

Jon

[Emanon]

Hello Jon

Enjoy India :-)

Thanks, I do. Home since more than 25 years :-)

... as the feelings, anger or whatever, are experienced see if its possible to find out what such emotion actually is? Is there someone 'having' emotion or is emotion like another kind of sensation, an energy, that happens but doesn't necessarily happen to 'a person'?

Do such emotions seem to come with thoughts? Ideas about 'me'? Do the thoughts and feelings go together in some way to create a story of about an experiencer?

Emotions seem to 'consist' of thoughts, ideas and body sensations (feelings). And yes, in most cases there is a story created about me experiencing these emotions. And the story can be quite complex and apparently trigger more emotions and vice versa.

By looking some more at emotions this separation of feeling and thought seemed to be somewhat artificial. Ultimately there was only thought left. Hmm?

Emotions are just happening. Nobody is having them. And they can be perceived as energy. Either contracting with fear at the root and anger, sadness etc just being the deputies, or relaxing with love at the core.


Then I went back to the feeling of me. The first question I asked was: What is it like when the apparent me feeling is not present. I very consciously experience this from time to time singing in a choir. There is just singing happening, no body, no me felt, just the vibration of sound. But it doesn't need specificly pleasant circumstances. I noticed it just recently in the middle of a traffic jam on my motorbike in the Indian midday heat. There was just beingness, aliveness . A lot of it :-)


As we had already touched upon in one of the first posts, this I feeling seems to be related to the body.
So this morning I looked again. Where in the body is it felt. Chest and head. But surprisingly it's not the sensations of head or chest. Those were different. I or me were clearly seen to be just thoughts and disappeared. But there was definitely a feeling of being. The looking went deeper and deeper until I saw 'something' at its core. It wasn't a thing, it didn't have any qualities, no form. It could not be grasped by the mind nor felt. Undescribable. It could not be experienced in any way. And still it was undeniable, there was some kind of vast presence.
It was quite a surprise (and still is) to find 'this' at the bottom of the apparent feeling of I.

Love,

Emanon

[JonathanR]

Enjoy India :-)
Thanks, I do. Home since more than 25 years :-)

OOh! Lucky you!

By looking some more at emotions this separation of feeling and thought seemed to be somewhat artificial. Ultimately there was only thought left. Hmm?

Yes. I agree, the separation does seem artificial. It can indeed seem as though only thought is left. Although sometimes there can be a definite emotion/sensation, as , for example, when about to be run over by a car one jumps back with a pang of 'fear'.

Emotions are just happening. Nobody is having them. And they can be perceived as energy. Either contracting with fear at the root and anger, sadness etc just being the deputies, or relaxing with love at the core.

Yes that's interesting. Love does seem to come with relaxation.

The looking went deeper and deeper until I saw 'something' at its core. It wasn't a thing, it didn't have any qualities, no form. It could not be grasped by the mind nor felt. Undescribable. It could not be experienced in any way. And still it was undeniable, there was some kind of vast presence.
It was quite a surprise (and still is) to find 'this' at the bottom of the apparent feeling of I.

How beautiful!

You are reminding me of the time I was guided. I had been buddhist for many years (a long long time ago). So in wishing to see no self, I imagined in the only way I could, that there would be an 'emptiness' or somewhat negating experience. But to my delight the reality of no self was...is...quite the opposite. It seemed to me to be fullness, vast creativity, the whole universe, vastly affirmative.

love

Jon

[JonathanR]

Hi Emanon,

Having said that, I have to add that even speaking in terms such as 'the experience of no self' is misleading and my account was very personal. Its simply how everything appeared, but not 'to me'.

Jon

[Emanon]

Hi Jon,

Having said that, I have to add that even speaking in terms such as 'the experience of no self' is misleading and my account was very personal. Its simply how everything appeared, but not 'to me'.

I guess I understood what you were expressing. This whole affair of using words is tricky and only works when one tries to understand what is expressed rather than picking on words. From the beginning I felt an understanding here between uns, that's why we didn't put every I in quotation marks.And I felt safe with you to just write what came. Will continue doing so :-)

Enjoy India :-)
Thanks, I do. Home since more than 25 years :-)
OOh! Lucky you

Yes, there is a huge gratitude to this wonderfully chaotic, colourful, wild, beautiful, challenging country for being my home since so many years now and to life in general how it unfolded.

Although sometimes there can be a definite emotion/sensation, as , for example, when about to be run over by a car one jumps back with a pang of 'fear'.

Yes, of course.

You are reminding me of the time I was guided. I had been buddhist for many years (a long long time ago). So in wishing to see no self, I imagined in the only way I could, that there would be an 'emptiness' or somewhat negating experience. But to my delight the reality of no self was...is...quite the opposite. It seemed to me to be fullness, vast creativity, the whole universe, vastly affirmative.

Yes, I was delighted too by this discovery and still am. And it showed me again how expectations, anticipations etc can be in the way so that I can't see what is right under my nose.

And then I looked at life in general the same way we had looked at perceptions, sensations etc. Life is just happening to no one. It's just what it is. And all meaning and purpose and interpretation and jugement etc is superimposed by thought/feeling.
And there was the smiling again. What a joke!

So, if you'd aske me again

... can you say with a big fat 'yes' that the illusion of 'self' is seen?

I'd say Yes and add a big, fat smile to it.

The doubts and question marks seem not to contradict this statement. They just appear and disappear. And as you said this is only a starting point the unfolding of the implications is ongoing. Deeper and deeper still.

And at the moment it doesn't feel like falling anymore. More like flying.

Rishikesh high?

Love

Emanon

[JonathanR]

I felt safe with you to just write what came. Will continue doing so :-)

Great :-) Thank you.

What a beautiful post to read!

Just for the sake of completeness I'd like to ask you six questions now. Feel free to answer them a couple at,a time or all together if you wish.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
b) What makes things happen? How does it work?
c) What are you responsible for?
d) Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Love

Jon

[Emanon]

Hi Jon,

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

No, there isn't. There may be thoughts/feelings suggesting it, but as we have seen these are only appearances happening to no one.
No, there was never. So as you pointed out there was no self, me, I, ego etc to get rid of.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

It is the illusion of a me in here (body/mind) and the world and other people out there. It is the apparent identification with my life story (just thoughts and images) and my body (a bunch of sensations) my feelings (a combination of both) etc. It seems to start in the first years as infant, probably when the mother is felt as separate. I don't have a clear image of this phase but there is a feeling of despair attached to it (maybe a later addition?)
Once this apparent separation has taken place the illusion of me needs constant reaffirmation, is very high-maintenance because of the underlying fear of dissolution. It is never sure of itself, never satisfied for long., always feels threatened.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

There is still an awe about the implications. And at the same time it feels as if a huge burden is taken away. Some kind of exhaustion, tiredness from the enourmous amount of energy that was 'bound' by the upkeep of the me is felt.
Before entering this dialogue there was still some feeling of 'something is missing' 'it should feel differently' ... These are seen as thoughts/feelings and may appear or not but they are not felt as my doubts any longer.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

This recognition of doubts and apparently unanswered questions as what they are - thoughts and feelings. And 'meeting' this undescribable presence at the bottom of the feeling of being. Pure beingness seems to be all there is.

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
b) What makes things happen? How does it work?
c) What are you responsible for?
d) Give examples from experience.

a) There is no one who could make decisions, have intentions, free will, choice and control. Choice etc would imply that there is a possible alternative to what is. It isn't. Thought may suggest otherwise, but life just is for no reason or purpose and certainly not controlled by me.

b) They just happen. Or not, then that's what's happening.

c) Nothing. As there is no seperate self, no I, no persona, who would be responsible? There might still be a parking ticket. Then that's what is happening. The question of responsibility doesn't apply because there is no one doing anything for which he can be held responsible.

d) Didn't get this one. The illusion of free will and choice was seen through some time ago, when somewhere on the gate the guide asked someone to raise one arm and to look who is deciding which arm, how high, when to start ... That was enough to shatter the belief of me the doer, free will, choice etc.

And while struggeling with this question and looking for experiences - there weren't any recent ones. Oops. The last one was the meeting with the presence mentioned above. It felt like a touch , a merging and since then there is purely life. No experiencer, no experience, just what is. Can't describe it better.

6) Anything to add?

A big, fat Thanks and a big hug (if you like) for you, Jon.

Love

Emanon

[JonathanR]

Dear Emanon,

Thank you so much for your beautiful answers. A big hug for you too :-) .

I'm just going to ask some other guides if they might have any more questions for you. Do check back here to find out. And I may send you a private message. These can be accessed from the area at the top of the screen on the blue bar.

Love

Jon

[Emanon]

Thanks again, Jon,

Will check here and in my messages folder.

Love

Emanon