Hi

[mpsi]

Hi nina,

This is how I see the problem of self now: "I" is like a character in a story told in a book called mind. It is fictional. The step to be taken is like stopping believing that the character in the book is real, it's just a novel, nothing more. But how should this shift happen? Does it happen only in the story, that is the book stops being fiction and starts to narrate the reality more or less as it is, or does the shift in perception happens in the reality as well, that is some kind of new way of looking at things emerges? But the content of perception is only mind and AE, how can any shift of perception happen unless it is just the mind changing itself?

All the best,

Marcin

[mpsi]

Or the book starts saying things like this: "Look around. Don't look at me all the time"?

Best regards,

Marcin

[suma]

Dear Marcin,

you’re doing really great!

I felt frustrated after reading these words. It's neither this, nor that - so what is it supposed to be?

But after some time with this "frustration", I looked at it in a way which you suggested I should use when finding "fear". Well, the body wasn't frustrated at all. Actually, it has its own pleasures and pains, quite apart of the mind's. And then, when I tried to look at the "frustration" in the mind, suddenly it just wasn't there. There was a thought that it was just a prank. So it seems the whole "frustration" about the impossibility to see non-existence of self was just acted out, quite pointlessly at that.

This is all that can be done in terms of liberation. It is as simple as that.

The only thing that can be done is to see that everything that seems to have a self-nature actually doesn’t.
You actually realize: Oh, there’s thought, but where is the thinker? There is no thinker.
Or: Oh, there are feelings, but there is no-one to whom these feelings occur.

There is frustration of me, there is depression of me, etc, but actually there is just frustration, depression etc.
Actually there is just anger, joy, happiness, bliss, fear, anxiety or just anything as a state arising.
The whole point here is to what and where are these states arising?

If you can look really close at it, it’ll become clear that all these things do not need a me to arise.
They exist and arise also without an idea of the me.

It is simply reality presenting itself to reality.
No me or ownership is involved here.

However if it seems to presents itself to a me it is just another dream.

Therefore liberation is also named to wake up.
It is to wake up from a dream that doesn’t exist anyway.

Later during the day I started to have doubts about the whole enterprise: I started to feel that there are some good uses for the self, no matter whether it is fictional or not. This doesn't feel quite right, but I need to go through these ideas first and will report to you back when I'm done.

Sounds like the resisting mode in full play. This is totally normal in this process.
The me wants to stay and the best way to keep it in place is to press the resistance button.
Just stay with it as you did before:

When you think you find "resistance", try to define (look what the actual experience (AE) is):

The label ‘resistance’ is AE of thought and not AE of resisting.
The sensation labelled ‘resistance’ is AE of sensation and not AE of resisting.
The image labelled ‘me/body/I’ is AE of colour and not AE of person in resistance.
The thoughts ABOUT resistance and what it means is AE of thought and not AE of someone resisting.


Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience –
it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.
This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots.

For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation
i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?
For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example: I am sitting on a chair, I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen, I am feeling hungry.
Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing
but this time without using the word “I”.
Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example: sitting on a chair, typing, breathing, blinking, or hearing the clock.
(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the
experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?



All the best

nina

[suma]

Dear Marcin,

Inference won’t help us here any further.
Either you see it or you don’t.


I’m waiting for the answers of the four questions.



All the best

nina

[mpsi]

Dear nina,

Inference won’t help us here any further.
Either you see it or you don’t.Yes, I get this now. No use to guess what is it like, I need to see it myself (wrong, there is no "I" to see it).

Yes, I get it now. Blind guessing won't help here.

I used the "recognize AE" exercise during outbursts of different emotions, with mixed results. Some "emotions" seemed fake, some were not exactly what they were labelled to be. "My" attitude changes all the time, for example right now dominating feeling seems to be "indifference", while 5 minutes ago it was "tiredness".

Answers to your questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

I can't say which one is truer.

2. What is here without labels?

Without labels things are just happening. There is certain flowing quality in this, because boundaries are not there.

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

The labels just describe the experience, do not affect it.

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

When non-personal way of descripting the experience was used the body seemed less tense. Use of "I" seemed to spicy up things and to create some tension in the body. When I looked for a moment at the descriptions with "I" during the second, "non-I" part of the exercise, it seemed as if they were hot in comparison to "non-I" ones.

All the best

Marcin

[suma]

Dear Marcin,

seems that there had been an overlapping of our posts.
I got your previous last two posts after the sent post with the four questions…

Thanks for the answers now. ( :

I used the "recognize AE" exercise during outbursts of different emotions, with mixed results. Some "emotions" seemed fake, some were not exactly what they were labelled to be. "My" attitude changes all the time, for example right now dominating feeling seems to be "indifference", while 5 minutes ago it was "tiredness".

Very good. Just be with the experience that comes up in the present moment.
Any future or past event is just AE of thought but not AE of the experience reminded.
What is really here can happen only in the present moment.

When non-personal way of descripting the experience was used the body seemed less tense. Use of "I" seemed to spicy up things and to create some tension in the body. When I looked for a moment at the descriptions with "I" during the second, "non-I" part of the exercise, it seemed as if they were hot in comparison to "non-I" ones.

Nice.

Here’s another exercise to explore the reality of the self:

Find a comfortable place to sit or lie.
Take in a few deep breaths to settle the dust and then relax for a bit.
Spend only 30 to 60 seconds on each component of this exercise.
Bring your awareness to your entire body - sense it fully, head to toe.
Run your hands down over your torso. Feel the solidity of it.
Now bring your awareness to your feet. Again, feel them. Move them a bit.
Then bring your awareness to your hands. Open and close them.
Bring your awareness to your face - all of it. Touch it with your hand.

Now point your index finger to where "Marcin" is located.
Touch the exact location of "Marcin".

Answer these questions:

-Were you able to find and feel "Marcin" in a direct way like the other parts of your body? -Where is it?
-What did you find? Something? Anything? Nothing?
-What sensations did you feel in your body that identified "Marcin” (If any).

Tell me what you experienced and found, by way of direct experience.

All the best

nina

[mpsi]

Dear nina,

Thank you for your patience and being with me all this time. While I try to write a post every day, sometimes I am not able to do so.

I repeat the exercise of recognizing the AE as often as I can. I can see now that many signals, which usually get interpreted as internal states of "I", simply come from the body. Slight discomfort in the body may be interpreted as anxiety and given habitual interpretation as a kind of "feeling". What feeling exactly is a kind of guess, with clues being taken from how the "I" story has been going at the moment. However, when the emotions are stronger, especially during interactions with people, it is very difficult to deconstruct them in this way, and there is a strong tendency to identify with the emotions and the story of "I".

Here are answers to your recent set of questions:

-Were you able to find and feel "Marcin" in a direct way like the other parts of your body? -Where is it?

No, I wasn't able to find it. It seemed absurd to attempt to point out "Marcin" like a part of the body after this exercise.

-What did you find? Something? Anything? Nothing?

I couldn't find anything. The mind quickly gave up on the task, and thoughts drifted elsewhere.

-What sensations did you feel in your body that identified "Marcin” (If any).

"Marcin" is not physical.

Tell me what you experienced and found, by way of direct experience.

The whole exercise was quite pleasant, the body is okay about itself. I did the exercise twice, yesterday and today, to try to find some reaction, but there was none. Few days ago I tried to identify "I" in the body and it seemed that some parts of the body are more distant from "I" than others, and the closest was skin on the lower part of the throat with a kind of tense sensation there, but after lying down, relaxing a bit and moving attention to different parts of the body in the exercise, this feeling of some places in the body being "closer" than others wasn't there anymore.

All the best

Marcin

[suma]

Dear Marcin.

Thank you for your patience and being with me all this time. While I try to write a post every day, sometimes I am not able to do so.

This is totally OK. Thank you for looking. ( :

I repeat the exercise of recognizing the AE as often as I can. I can see now that many signals, which usually get interpreted as internal states of "I", simply come from the body. Slight discomfort in the body may be interpreted as anxiety and given habitual interpretation as a kind of "feeling".

Very good.

However, when the emotions are stronger, especially during interactions with people, it is very difficult to deconstruct them in this way, and there is a strong tendency to identify with the emotions and the story of "I".

This is totally normal. The momentum of the I-story keeps on reoccurring again and again.
It is such a deeply engrained habit and it is not at all easy to just leave it.
The key here is the present moment.
After the labelling mechanism had been on for some time see how quickly you just come back to actual experience.

The whole exercise was quite pleasant, the body is okay about itself. I did the exercise twice, yesterday and today, to try to find some reaction, but there was none. Few days ago I tried to identify "I" in the body and it seemed that some parts of the body are more distant from "I" than others, and the closest was skin on the lower part of the throat with a kind of tense sensation there, but after lying down, relaxing a bit and moving attention to different parts of the body in the exercise, this feeling of some places in the body being "closer" than others wasn't there anymore.

Very nice.

Here is now an exercise about control:

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.
Watch like a hawk.
Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience.
Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

- How is the movement controlled?
- Does a thought control it?
- Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
- How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

-Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

- Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Please answer the questions with the ‘ -bar’.

All the best

suma

[mpsi]

Hi nina,

- How is the movement controlled?
- Does a thought control it?
- Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
- How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

After the decision has been made to start the exercise, it seems that the hand basically flips by itself. There can be some tendency to follow a certain rhythm. I couldn't see a single point in time when the decision to flip was made and of course there was noone to make this "non-decision". As to the decision to start the exercise - while the start clearly happened and there was some mental planning beforehand, I could not see the entity that made it happen. It seems rather like there was some silent consensus reached between different parts of the body and the mind that the exercise may start.

Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Thoughts were unable to control movement. At moments thoughts screamed "flip now!" and nothing happened.

-Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Initial choice of a hand for the exercise was done according to the environment - I am on a train while doing the exercise and although the train is half empty, it was easier to start with the hand less exposed and therefore less attracting other people's attention. But just as I wrote these words, suddenly an idea came to me, that the environment can't really constrict a decision. And immediately a new decision was made to raise another hand and start flipping it. After some pondering, I discovered that what initially limited choice of the hand was a feeling of shyness - a need to avoid attention. But this feeling was just one of fake states of "I", and it was easy to overcome it in this half empty train.

- Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

There is still an expectation that there should be some entity making decisions, but the exercise strongly suggests there is none. Movement happens when circumstances are right for it.

All the best

Marcin

[suma]

Dear Marcin,

After the decision has been made to start the exercise, it seems that the hand basically flips by itself. There can be some tendency to follow a certain rhythm. I couldn't see a single point in time when the decision to flip was made and of course there was noone to make this "non-decision". As to the decision to start the exercise - while the start clearly happened and there was some mental planning beforehand, I could not see the entity that made it happen. It seems rather like there was some silent consensus reached between different parts of the body and the mind that the exercise may start.

So did a thought control it?

Thoughts were unable to control movement. At moments thoughts screamed "flip now!" and nothing happened.

So the answer is no. Isn’t that odd? Or in other words: it not really funny?

Initial choice of a hand for the exercise was done according to the environment - I am on a train while doing the exercise and although the train is half empty, it was easier to start with the hand less exposed and therefore less attracting other people's attention. But just as I wrote these words, suddenly an idea came to me, that the environment can't really constrict a decision. And immediately a new decision was made to raise another hand and start flipping it. After some pondering, I discovered that what initially limited choice of the hand was a feeling of shyness - a need to avoid attention. But this feeling was just one of fake states of "I", and it was easy to overcome it in this half empty train.

Well, it is always advisable not to expose anything in public what we are dealing here with.
To soon the me would create a nice or gorgeous or whatever story around that. But I see the point you mean.

So let’s have a look at another exercise whether you can choose or decide which hand to raise:

1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down.
2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand
in the air but not the other.
Don't go to thoughts, examine your direct experience.

Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

- What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?
- Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?
- What is it that is controlling the hand?
- Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
- Can anything be found that makes the hand move?
- How is the decision made?

Please answer the last six questions all one by one.

All the best

nina

[mpsi]

Dear nina,

I had 2 days of rather intense work and that's why I didn't post yesterday.

Well, it is always advisable not to expose anything in public what we are dealing here with.
To soon the me would create a nice or gorgeous or whatever story around that.

I understand. I never wanted to make this investigation public, I guess it would not do any good.

I've done the raising hand exercise many times yesterday and today, but do not have clear results.

- What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?

It seems that ultimately the choice is made at the last moment. There may be some clear decision earlier, and the movement just follows it, or it may be left undecided untill the last moment. I can't locate the place of the decision with any certainty.

- Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?

No, I can't

- What is it that is controlling the hand?

The hand seems to move by itself. Actually, the easiest way for me to do the exercise was to set a deadline - e.g. by counting down form 10 to 0 - and then let both hands to get ready and to see which one moves first. The other hand had to yield when the first one moved.

- Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No. The decision sometimes might be announced with thoughts. An interesting thing is that the hands feel different: I am right-handed, and the right hand feels to be "lying lower" or "less charged" than the left one.

- Can anything be found that makes the hand move?

No. I tried to locate something, but couldn't.

- How is the decision made?

It looks as if the decision wasn't made, but just happened. Or even there was no decision really, just movement happening.

It's quite puzzling, and there is a suspicion that the decision is somehow hidden.

Best regards,

Marcin

[suma]

Dear Marcin,

I had 2 days of rather intense work and that's why I didn't post yesterday.

OK. Thanks for letting me know.

It looks as if the decision wasn't made, but just happened. Or even there was no decision really, just movement happening.

This is a great realisation! You did the exercise very well.

It's quite puzzling, and there is a suspicion that the decision is somehow hidden.

Where could that hidden place be?
The purpose of these exercises is to realize what is by actual experience.
But how peculiar, even if it is clear as a pure sight yet the mind refuses to take it in.
However that is nothing unusual.

Ok, maybe we just try another experiment:


The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found
or confirmed in actual experience.
The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

Here's what’s needed - a chair, a table and two different drinks.

Any two drinks you like are okay for this:
coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, etc.

Preparation:

Place the two drinks side by side on the table in front of you, sit comfortably on the chair and
mentally label them as drink A and drink B.

Experiment:

Finding the function of choice

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle.
When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B.

Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh
the pros and cons of each.
See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.

2. Count to 5.

3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.


Questions:

Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

-- In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities?
Or did they kind of appear by themselves?

-- If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences?
Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat,
did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event?

-- Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?
Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’?
Have you seen this function in action?

-- In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing
the ‘choosing’?

-- Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

-- Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’.
But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’?
Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

Please answer the questions with the two bars –- each separately.


All the best

nina

[mpsi]

Dear nina,

-- In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities?
Or did they kind of appear by themselves?

They appeared by themselves. It looked as if they already were there - or in other words they were retrieved from the memory. They were thoughts, appearing by themselves.

-- If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences?
Or did they just pop up by themselves?

No, I didn't choose them. Like all thoughts, they apeared by themselves.

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat,
did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event?

-- Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?
Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’?
Have you seen this function in action?

No, I didn't choose it. Before this experiment I already observed switching of attention in various circumstances and it looked similar to adjusting volume or brightness of different channels. It seemed to be done autonomically according to current situation. A reasonable assumption seems to be that it is done by the brain and it's one of its functions, but the only thing I can say about it from experience is that it just happens.

-- In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing
the ‘choosing’?

No, the choice was presented as an action already happening. However I could witness some balancing of the two options beforehand, with the purpose of the balancing being the best way to benefit the body, that is to get the most pleasant anticipated feedback from it. The memories of former sensations associated with each of the two drinks were projected into the future on the background of current body sensations and it looked as if the preference was moving from one option to another, but the ultimate choice was made unvisibly.

-- Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Nothing like this arised. There were thoughts about choosing and deciding, but they have been already trained not to claim too much authority recently. However there is still a clear sense of self in my usual daily activities, especially when I'm getting busy.

Best regards,

Marcin

[suma]

Dear Marcin,
I'm answering more detailled in the evening.

All the best

nina

[suma]

Dear Marcin,

-- In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities?
Or did they kind of appear by themselves?

They appeared by themselves. It looked as if they already were there - or in other words they were retrieved from the memory. They were thoughts, appearing by themselves.

Good.

We may look into the nature of memory a little later.

No, I didn't choose them. Like all thoughts, they apeared by themselves.

Very good.

Before this experiment I already observed switching of attention in various circumstances and it looked similar to adjusting volume or brightness of different channels.

This isn’t quite clear to me. Could you explain that a bit more, please?

…but the only thing I can say about it from experience is that it just happens.

Yes, this is all that can be said about direct experience.
No need to go into thought interpretation here.

No, the choice was presented as an action already happening.

Yes.

However I could witness some balancing of the two options beforehand, with the purpose of the balancing being the best way to benefit the body, that is to get the most pleasant anticipated feedback from it. The memories of former sensations associated with each of the two drinks were projected into the future on the background of current body sensations and it looked as if the preference was moving from one option to another, but the ultimate choice was made invisibly.

Ok. Were you aware that was Actual Experience of thought?

Nothing like this arised. There were thoughts about choosing and deciding…

…so just AE of thought…

…but they have been already trained not to claim too much authority recently.

Really? How can thoughts be trained ?
Can you create thoughts or prevent them from arising?

However there is still a clear sense of self in my usual daily activities, especially when I'm getting busy.

It seems that you mistake mental activity and thought processes as a seat of the me.

Let’s just recall what we are doing here:

The most important tool to ‘wake up’ from the illusion of the self is direct or actual experience.
The direct experience of that which actually is. Here and now.

For the exploration it can be divided into three parts:

1. Thoughts
2. Sense impressions; seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling.
3. A definite sense of aliveness of presence or being


The illusion of separation is maintained by a constant stream of self concerned thoughts –
based on conditionings of the past. They all circle around one thought created centre;
called Me or I or my self. However there is no such centre anywhere in real or direct experience.
All there is are labels relating to other thoughts.

But here the illusion gets established that there is a separate entity that perceives.
In AE we are looking for this separate entity, the me.
Is there really a separate me, or are there just sense impressions and thoughts,
dividing into: me + body + sense impression?

Is there really a feeler or just feeling?
Is there really a thinker or just thinking?

Can it be possible that there is mere experience but no one that experiences?
This is what we are trying to find out here.


I hope you might find some time to go into this little examination:

Sit quietly and pay close attention to your thoughts for 20 minutes.

Notice that thoughts seem to pop out of nowhere and have no obvious cause.
They are a total surprise and you can find no cause or reason for their appearance.
It should be obvious you were not involved in any way in the creation of these thoughts.

Do you have unpleasant thoughts?
Do you want to have them?
If you had any control over thoughts, don’t you think you would choose not to think such thoughts at all?
Wouldn’t you be able to choose never to have thoughts that seem to make you unhappy?

When we look very closely and precisely we come to see that “me” thoughts only refer to other “me” thoughts,
not to an actual abiding “me.”

Observe thoughts with precision; can you ever find a ‘me’ within the “me” thoughts and feelings, or just a sense of me?

Pay attention to mental activity – to thoughts and images in the mind.
Where are they arising?
Are they inside something?
Are they central to you, or are they peripheral?

Do they leave any trace when they have gone?


Please take all the time you need here. No need to rush.

Let me know how you go.

All the best

nina