Just Breathe

[JonathanR]

Hi James,

Sorry its been a longer wait for my reply. Been a busy day!

. For our purposes, though, I can only conclude that consciousness just "is"

Nice.

. In the time it comes out of it's nowhere-hidey-hole until the time it returns the mind determines what to do with it. In the time it comes out of it's nowhere-hidey-hole until the time it returns the mind determines what to do with it. Either dwell on it, ignore it (which isn't always helpful) or simply to acknowledge it and let it pass....like the cloud/blue sky metaphor

Got to stop you there! Look immediately for mind.

What's noticed?

What is the one that dwells on it, ignores it or even let's it pass like a cloud in the blue sky?

. You can't fool yourself into thinking, ok I'm going to raise my right hand and then raise your left because there is already the awareness that you're going to do the opposite.

Yes. Good. That's proper checking out.

Try the following exercise:

In a moment you're going to get up and go to get a hot drink, or cold if you prefer. Do not read the next bit till you're back here with your drink.

Now. Were decisions and choices noticed about how legs would move and shift in order for walking to occur? No?

Try it with driving the car or even just hunting for car keys. All these things happen. And we tend to say 'I. Chose, I decided'. Ignore all thoughts that imagine a 'self' doing these things in a future or past. Just investigate whether its possible to notice a decider deciding or a chooser choosing. Its very easy and common to think there must be an entity deciding. Clearly life has a way of making walking happen? But where is this self that makes things happen or chooses?


Jon

[JayCee]

Got to stop you there! Look immediately for mind.

What's noticed?

When I say "the mind" perhaps a better way to phrase it is consciousness - so who decides what remains in consciousness? It certainly feels like an "I"....if not an "I" then who or what makes the decision?

What is the one that dwells on it, ignores it or even let's it pass like a cloud in the blue sky?

The decision is just made but there is an intelligence behind it. The is a choice made each minute of each day - where to have lunch, to make a phone call or visit, etc...

Now. Were decisions and choices noticed about how legs would move and shift in order for walking to occur? No?

Interesting, no, the motor functions operated by themselves BUT there was a decision made to walk AROUND the living room as opposed through the kitchen to avoid the sleeping dog. Intelligence and choice were involved

Clearly life has a way of making walking happen? But where is this self that makes things happen or chooses?

That is the question, isn't it?

[JonathanR]

. Interesting, no, the motor functions operated by themselves

Ok good

BUT there was a decision made to walk AROUND the living room as opposed through the kitchen to avoid the sleeping dog. Intelligence and choice were involved

.

What? because intelligence or choice appear this must be 'my intelligence' making everything happen?

. so who decides what remains in consciousness? It certainly feels like an "I"....if not an "I" then who or what makes the decision?

Feels like an 'I' is fine.

Who or what makes anything happen?

. The decision is just made but there is an intelligence behind it. The is a choice made each minute of each day - where to have lunch, to make a phone call or visit, etc...

Sure, intelligence. Its great.

What makes it 'my intelligence' ?

Jon

[JayCee]

Hello!

Sure, intelligence. Its great.

What makes it 'my intelligence

I am totally on board with the fact that intelligence just “is”. There is a feeling of wanting to own it, if not “me” then who? Chicken and egg.

Is it fear if relinquishing ownership? That’s what it feels like in a way

Thanks for your time here Jon!

James

[JonathanR]

Hi James

. Thanks for your time here Jon!

You're more than welcome James.

. I am totally on board with the fact that intelligence just “is”. There is a feeling of wanting to own it, if not “me” then who? Chicken and egg.

Is it fear of relinquishing ownership? That’s what it feels like in a way

That's worth noticing. It's possible to go in circles until fear is acknowledged, if it's there. I wonder how strong the fear is? See if its possible to find out?

Don't be perturbed if there is anxiety about loss of control. It is common and it can be worked with.

All best,

Jon

[JayCee]

Thanks!

I wonder how strong the fear is? See if its possible to find out?

It's kind of like letting go of the edge of the swimming pool - it's scary but in the end you know it's going to be an opening to something new.

Don't be perturbed if there is anxiety about loss of control. It is common and it can be worked with.

The rational mind still wants to attach itself (the "I") to something - it's a lifetime of habit undermined by a realization that "I" isn't really real. That seems to be the hardest bit - removing the attachment but I suspect over time that the attachment will remove itself.

What are the implications of seeing that the "I" is an illusion - I understand that the heavens don't open up and pour down happiness, I'm just curious of your thoughts (not looking to emulate or duplicate) on how seeing that there is no "self" is experienced....

[JonathanR]

. t's kind of like letting go of the edge of the swimming pool - it's scary but in the end you know it's going to be an opening to something new.

Right

. it's a lifetime of habit undermined by a realization that "I" isn't really real. That seems to be the hardest bit - removing the attachment but I suspect over time that the attachment will remove itself.

You put it so well that its hard for me to find anything to add.

. What are the implications of seeing that the "I" is an illusion - I understand that the heavens don't open up and pour down happiness, I'm just curious of your thoughts (not looking to emulate or duplicate) on how seeing that there is no "self" is experienced....

That's a very good question and the answer is good too.

How will it be experienced? I wouldn't be so fixed about the heavens not opening. I spend a lot of my time as a guide here encouraging people to see and drop ,all fixed expectations and interpretations.

Its beyond what can be conceptualised about it. Or, put kanother way, whatever can be thought about it is never it

How does what I've said strike you?

Jon

[JayCee]

Thanks, Jon...

You put it so well that its hard for me to find anything to add.

Thank you, I appreciate it

Its beyond what can be conceptualised about it. Or, put kanother way, whatever can be thought about it is never it

How does what I've said strike you?

Honestly, and please don't take this the wrong way, but it strikes me as evasive ;)

I guess more than anything, I'm curious about how the understanding that "I" doesn't exist has impacted the daily experience....less prone to take things personally, less reactive, more patient, etc. Again, I completely understand that this isn't a self-help (see what I did there?) program or something similar I'm really just trying to understand the experiential aspect of it and what it has meant to you, personally.

[JonathanR]

Hi James,

. Its beyond what can be conceptualised about it. Or, put kanother way, whatever can be thought about it is never it

How does what I've said strike you?
Honestly, and please don't take this the wrong way, but it strikes me as evasive ;)

Its Ok. I don't mind

But please bear in mind that this entire inquiry hinges around (you) noticing (your) experience directly. Beware of creating expectations of particular outcomes! Otherwise you'll spend all your time with a mental tape-measure and may miss subtleties.

Ok, with the health warning out of the way I will say a few things from personal experience :-)

In seeing no self and that there is no doer either and that thoughts were just appearing there was a collapse of pessimism and depression. In its place there is energy,

Things I felt anxious about weren't important. Weren't real enough to be important. As 'negative' thoughts appear it is seen that these are just habitual commentary. There is no 'I' that 'thinks' them.

Several years on I can add that certain changes have happened that I would not have expected. For instance in my case there had been 30 years of no exercise at all and a lot of resistance to it. One year ago I started quite demanding exercise and have done it nearly every day since then because I feel like it. Its a massive change.

Anyway these are just how things have gone personally.

Jon

[JayCee]

Hi Jon:

Beware of creating expectations of particular outcomes! Otherwise you'll spend all your time with a mental tape-measure and may miss subtleties.

I 100% agree and am very aware of not doing that - everyone's experience will be different based on their life up to now and everything that has gone into making them who they believe themselves to be. As many variations as there are people, I expect.

I appreciate you drawing out your experience, it is quite helpful to see.

The difficulty is that there is something that wants to know what the alternative is. If' "I" am not the one who decides which route to take to work then where is this decision coming from? It must come from someplace because the decision is made.

Is it correct to say the "mind" makes the decision (or the "brain" if you like) based on the billions of factors it considers? If so then what controls the brain? I keep coming back to this....

[JonathanR]

. The difficulty is that there is something that wants to know what the alternative is. If' "I" am not the one who decides which route to take to work then where is this decision coming from? It must come from someplace because the decision is made.

I wouldn't be helping you to answer this now. You'll find the answer yourself.

What would be helpful is to look at that fear or anxiety about 'letting go' that you mentioned.

What is this fear, exactly? Is it an impulse to protect something? There is a perception of danger or risk and an impulse to defend, by pushing away the threat.

Its often assumed that the fear is a bad thing but that isn't helpful. Fear is doing a very loyal job of trying to protect. It's acting out of love. Its just that in this instance the danger is only an illusion. Nobody will be harmed. At root the biggest irony is that there has never been a 'self' that could be 'in danger'. No one will get hurt, go mad or not cope.

So now, thank the fear deeply for its loyal protection and love all these years and let it know that its completely free to relax.

See how that feels.

. Is it correct to say the "mind" makes the decision (or the "brain" if you like) based on the billions of factors it considers? If so then what controls the brain? I keep coming back to this....

A puppet-master?

What 'controls' anything?


Jon

[JayCee]

A puppet-master?

What 'controls' anything?

Well, no, I don't believe that there's a force, be it God or anything else that directs our every movement and pushes us in one direction or another.

Control is an illusion - there is no "control" as it is commonly defined in anything during the everyday experience. Things are as they are.

So, no, no puppet-master thankfully.

And yet....decisions are made. Turn left or turn right - walk or drive - do this or do that

[JonathanR]

Hi James,

. Well, no, I don't believe that there's a force, be it God or anything else that directs our every movement and pushes us in one direction or another.

. And yet....decisions are made. Turn left or turn right - walk or drive - do this or do that

Yeah! What's that about? Crazy world.

Investigate 'decisions' and 'choices'.

What you have to do is look at various events that are actually happening in the moment, such as searching for car keys...or whatever. Look to see if its possible to find a decider deciding. Look to see if an exact point of choice can be observed.

Watch for thoughts too. Thought can easily say things like 'I decided' 'Of course it was me' and so on.

Jon

[JayCee]

Investigate 'decisions' and 'choices'.

What you have to do is look at various events that are actually happening in the moment, such as searching for car keys...or whatever. Look to see if its possible to find a decider deciding. Look to see if an exact point of choice can be observed.

Watch for thoughts too. Thought can easily say things like 'I decided' 'Of course it was me' and so on.

Having spent a little time with this, I see exactly what you mean - kind of like the raising-the-hands exercise. there is no true moment of decision that is discernible in time; if there is, it takes less than a fraction of a microsecond so it would be nearly impossible to find anyway.

The thoughts DO come in and try to claim ownership; that's a hard part to drop but again, I suspect that falls off in time.

I do believe in God but not a "puppet-master" god that dictates every moment - one's "spirit" or "soul" by it's very nature cannot be found or defined and just "is" so how does the concept of no-self reconcile with the concept of a soul in your view?

[JonathanR]

Hi James,

I do believe in God but not a "puppet-master" god that dictates every moment - one's "spirit" or "soul" by it's very nature cannot be found or defined and just "is" so how does the concept of no-self reconcile with the concept of a soul in your view?

There's no fixed personal, separate self. With investigation that's less of a concept than a reality. What is just is. 'Soul', 'God' 'Self', 'Everything','Awareness' 'The Universe' are all labels.

Having spent a little time with this, I see exactly what you mean - kind of like the raising-the-hands exercise. there is no true moment of decision that is discernible in time; if there is, it takes less than a fraction of a microsecond so it would be nearly impossible to find anyway.

Great work.

The thoughts DO come in and try to claim ownership; that's a hard part to drop but again, I suspect that falls off in time.

Yes. And in the meantime, it can be very interesting to notice what thoughts do appear and what they 'say' about almost everything.

Do you ever find yourself 'waking up' to a series of thoughts which had you fully believing in a fixed James?

Can falling into temporary belief in a separate selfhood be prevented?

But then, can 'waking up' from these imaginings be prevented either?

Jon