Freedom from the I

[blackh]

Hi,

Thanks.

For the second question, that is the origin of thoughts is "one's knowingness". Knowingness means ones ability to perceiving the things, recognizing experiences etc.

Now I want you to find this knowingness. Please close your eyes and spend some time watching thoughts as they arise. Now please look right at the place where they arise from and find this knowingness that they come out of. Where is it located? What does it look/feel like? Does it have a shape, size or colour? Please describe it in detail.


Steve

[summiru2]

Now please look right at the place where they arise from and find this knowingness that they come out of.

The location is like dark emptiness.

Where is it located?

It does not look like something describle, so unable to find the exact location

What does it look/feel like?

When thought flows it appears /feels as content of the thought, but one it's own it's nothing, it's just tainted with the thought, in the absence of thought it is like empty space

Does it have a shape, size or colour?

The shape, size or color concieved based on the content in the thought, apart from that unable to perceive any shape, size or color of it's own.

It seems all the thoughts appear during the span between inhale and exhale that too in the absence of attention.
Please describe it in detail.

[blackh]

Hi Rami,

The location is like dark emptiness.

Great! Please keep looking at this, because it's important that you see clearly where thoughts come from.

Now try it with a more specific example: Please think of a number from 1 to 100.

Where did you SEE the number thought coming from?
Did you SEE an I doing the choosing?

Feel free to make up similar questions, like choosing a letter or a country.


Steve

[summiru2]

Hi Steve,
Sorry for the procrastinating response. Following words replied after applying the thorough observation.
The process is getting subtler. Counting is happening automatically but there is no trace of the word "I". Thought is coming in the absence of attention automatically.

[blackh]

Hi Rami!

Counting is happening automatically but there is no trace of the word "I". Thought is coming in the absence of attention automatically.

Excellent!

Is there a sense of I?
Is there a feeling that you are the creator of thoughts?
Is there a feeling that you are in control of the body's actions?
Is there a feeling that "I am inside the body" or something similar?


Steve

[summiru2]

Is there a sense of I?

Nothing as such sense "I". When one thought is flowing behind that some intention is there but that is also another other thought.

Is there a feeling that you are the creator of thoughts?

Don't know

Is there a feeling that you are in control of the body's actions?

When the body experience is foiled there is lot of suffering in the mind, mind is craving for pleasure and it could be food or anything other such kind.

Is there a feeling that "I am inside the body" or something similar?

Thought is perpetuating through the experience of the body or some counter thoughts. May be it just play of thought and counter thoughts, this duo is the so called self.

[blackh]

Hi Rami,

You said you don't know whether you are the creator of thoughts. So let's look into this some more.

Please look at an object such as a cup again. When you did this the first time, you said this:

First sensed with the eyes then whatever sensed through is identified with the relevant words.

This time, I want you to notice that there are really two "cups".

- One cup is an image in the senses.
- The other is a collection of thoughts about a cup: its shape, how old it is, what it is useful for, whether it has anything in it, the word "cup"...

Can you see this?

Now, close your eyes, but keep thinking about the cup that is in front of you, even though you can't see it. Can you see that now, only the second cup is there?


Steve

[summiru2]

Complete image of the object is not there just fragment of image is there, that too when the thinking is happened some words are flown then according to those words portion of the image is seen popped up in the mind, but it's not clear.

Whatever is being thought(second object) is not at all the actual

, but just the blend of the descriptions and partial images imagined in the mind and it is just like a shadow. And similarly when the words popped accordingly words being tried to map with the imagined portion of the object seen. when the real seeing of the object is happened there are no words, no thought is there. This current approach is revealing how the images and words form, and how they come into existence, it's helping a portion about how one self functions, kindly proceed like this.

[blackh]

Hi Rami,

when the real seeing of the object is happened there are no words, no thought is there.

That's great!

Whatever is being thought(second object) is not at all the actual

Excellent. This is the key to this. There is the sensation of a cup, and there are thoughts about the cup, and they have nothing to do with each other. They are not in the same "world".

Now, consider the thoughts about the cup...

Are thoughts real? That is, are they a thing that is actually there?
Are the CONTENTS of thoughts real? If you think about Batman, then is the Batman you thought about real? If you think about what you are going to do next week, is that real?

Is there any way in which the contents of thoughts - the things that thoughts say - can ever be real?


Steve

[summiru2]

Dear Steve,

Are thoughts real? That is, are they a thing that is actually there?

Thoughts are nothing but vague traces in the form of partial images and some words, which are associating some object. So obviously thought is never actual which is an abeyance to what is?

Are the CONTENTS of thoughts real? If you think about Batman, then is the Batman you thought about real? If you think about what you are going to do next week, is that real?

Contents of the thoughts is not the actual thing. Here "What I am going to do next week is" nothing but mind is identifying oneself as body and activities done through body as self activities or my activities, is it?

[blackh]

Hi Rami,

Thoughts are nothing but vague traces in the form of partial images and some words, which are associating some object.

But thoughts really are there, right? You're not making up the fact that they exist as part of experience. Do you see that?

Contents of the thoughts is not the actual thing.

Yes, excellent!

Now please take a moment to think about Santa at the North Pole. Christmas is coming up, so he and his elves are hard at work.

With the cup, there is something found in the senses, and there are thoughts saying that it is a cup - where you got the cup, whether it is dirty, the word "cup".
But Santa is not real. There can be all sorts of thoughts about him, but there is no actual thing of Santa. You will never ever find him in sight, hearing, taste, touch,...

Is the self like the cup or is it like Santa?

It's very clear that there are thoughts about the self. But, please look for the actual thing of the self. Really look for it right here and now. Can you find it?


Steve

[summiru2]

Dear Steve,
Self is like Santa, how deeply a thought is observed, that observation is revealing all the other set of thoughts surrounding it which are obscure and directly connected etc, there is no a trace of self.
There is a lot of turmoil is happening, hence couldn't able to respond properly in the last few days. Bequeath to you to not stopping of this great help.

[summiru2]

Dear Steve,
How the thought is recognized, suppose an object could be found with the help of light. So the object is recognized is with the aid of light. Similarly, a thought flows, how the thought is coming into the existence? What is the base of thought? if there is something subjective as the substratum of the thought then whatever is recognized through thought should be able to perceive at least one of the senses so it makes those recognizable things nothing but objects, that means thought can't detect subjectiveness. The question is being asked on the subjectiveness because it's been unveiled long ago that there are thoughts, sensations but there is no trace of I or self, if this is true, with aid of what this conclusion is made, is it subjectiveness?

How the senses recognize the things, if this recognization happens through the moment of energy, how the energy is moving?

[summiru2]

Dear Steve,
What is that one thing knowing which sets free from all the psychological drama?

[summiru2]

Dear Steve,
Could you please answer the last questions?