How is to see through the 'self' illusion?

[nonaparry]

In the present moment, without thoughts, there is no causation. ... The story is always lurking:

Any moment you check is the present moment. Now. Now. Now. There is no causation in Now.
The story may be lurking or not; it is only a collection of thoughts. You can believe it or see through it, but it is not real. The story is a fiction.

Can it be that some thoughts refer to real things?

Some thoughts point to real things: computer, desk, body. Other thoughts point to imaginary things: Batman, Santa, self.
The thought itself is real; we experience them in reality. But the Content of the thought is an image; imaginary. When you think of a cup, you have an image of the cup in mind; but you cannot pour tea into it or drink out of it.

this is too difficult to understand with my English

Clear, what is your first language? We have guides speaking many languages and might be able to help.

Are you saying that perceptions are the story

Not exactly; i am saying that the information from the stimulus is contaminated; it is biased before you even process it.

I can see that most actions happen automatically and with no causation

All actions happen without an act-or. There is no Breather, Sleeper, Scratcher needed for those actions to simply occur. Breathing, sleeping and scratching are part of Life life-ing.

Sorry for being all over the places. I trust your clarity.

Then pay attention and LOOK at your experience of life! Stop THINKing so much about what you think about it and Check what is Really happening! You are confusing yourself with distracting thoughts. Please focus on this: there is no 'self' in reality.

Ok. thoughts arise via stimuli. No one is having a stimulus, there is just a stimulus. There is no one thinking.

Yes! Only LOOK and check it! In your experience right now.

How does the label "I" get onto the activity that happens?

It doesn't get into the activity that happens,'I' am the awareness of the activity that happens. Once again the observer.

"I" is not awareness. "I" is a story, a fiction, about clear.
What is aware of "I"? What sees the observer?? Check it!! Go back and look for what is behind the 'awareness', what is behind the 'observer'.

In fact I cannot find it. But (sorry for the but :-) ) the illusion persists and looks real. I feel like I am under an hypnosis and I know that I am under an hypnosis. I am not capable to SEE that I don't exist.

In fact, you cannot find a self; it isn't there.
The illusion is a story we have lived with for a long time. This one lived with the illusion of a self for nearly 60 years before liberation.
Where does the story of self begin? Have you ever observed people talking to a baby, pointing to the mirror reflection and saying, "that is You"?
As babies we are not separate from our world; there is no place where baby begins or ends. Then the story of a separate self is begun by our parents and family who tell us who we 'are'. By around 3 years old the story of separation is complete, and we add our own bits to it as we grow up. But LOOK! It's only a fiction; self is an unquestioned assumption for most of us, most of our lives. Now it's being questioned, and that creates some conflict.

It feels like this thing is under my nose and for some reasons I keep overlooking it.

Yes; that is exactly it. It is SO simple, it is easily overlooked.

Tell me what the finger is pointing to. What exactly do you see with your eyes??

The illusion when I close my eyes and point the finger is that I am somewhere inside the head,but of course when I open my eyes there is only a head in reality, and no chances I guess to find 'me' inside.

When you open your eyes you SEE a head?? Really?
i don't think so.
Try again. Point with your finger to "me". Now LOOK. LOOK AT what the finger is pointing to. What do you SEE with your eyes? What is visible???

I don't exist. I don't exist. I don't exist. I am an illusion. I am a projection of thoughts. I am not the observer, there is no observer. 'I' is a word. 'I' has no substance, it doesn't refer to anything solid, real. 'I' am made of thoughts.

Although this is True, it is all thought. That is why i continue to ask you to LOOK with the eyes in your head. If you would LOOK you would see that there is no self anywhere you look! None!

[clearblu]

Then pay attention and LOOK at your experience of life! Stop THINKing so much about what you think about it and Check what is Really happening! You are confusing yourself with distracting thoughts. Please focus on this: there is no 'self' in reality

. 

Yes, got it.Too much thinking, too much abstraction, no need for this. Thinking about no-me is always in the way though, a big distraction! FOCUS on reality, what appears in reality. What is visible.
I think I experience reality, the observer, the feeler, the thinker. BUT it is not what really happens, it is a thought.
'I think' is a thought.
'I feel' is a thought.
'I observe' is a thought.

Oh God this is crazy! It feels true though! Help!!!!!!

"I" is not awareness. "I" is a story, a fiction, about clear. 
What is aware of "I"? What sees the observer?? Check it!! Go back and look for what is behind the 'awareness', what is behind the 'observer'

. 

What is aware of I? just awareness and behind awareness I don't see anything
What sees the observer? I find only awareness.

Yes; that is exactly it. It is SO simple, it is easily overlooked.

Simple but not easy to look, thinking is in the way

When you open your eyes you SEE a head?? Really? 
i don't think so.
Try again. Point with your finger to "me". Now LOOK. LOOK AT what the finger is pointing to. What do you SEE with your eyes? What is visible???

Right Nona, I don't see a head, this was another thought, another image, in reality I don't see myself. Only parts of a body, objects in the room. And also when looking in a mirror, there is a body, not a me.

It is quite amazing that feelings, thoughts, body, hearing, seeing, tasting, get labelled I. I read somewhere that it's like 'university', university it is just a label but there is not such thing as university, only a building, rooms, books, desks etc. and so I in reality is like 'university', a label. What is here in reality when looking? Hands typing, other parts of a body, thinking, objects, a computer screen. But no me. Me it is assumed by thoughts, by images.

Although this is True, it is all thought. That is why i continue to ask you to LOOK with the eyes in your head. If you would LOOK you would see that there is no self anywhere you look! None

None. Just a thought that says: I feel, I think, I look.


I prefer to continue with you in English, don't want another guide now.

[nonaparry]

I don't see a head, this was another thought, another image, in reality I don't see myself. Only parts of a body, objects in the room. And also when looking in a mirror, there is a body, not a me.
What is here in reality when looking? Hands typing, other parts of a body, thinking, objects, a computer screen. But no me.

That's right. When you point to 'me' and open your eyes, what you SEE is everything. No separation. None.


Close your eyes. With eyes closed, search for the boundary of you. Where do you end and where does the world begin?
In your direct experience, how tall are you? How old? How many toes do you have?
Couldn't you be any shape? Can you feel a boundary between skin and clothes, or is this only a kind of blurry sensation?

Smell a rose or dogshit. Without thinking, without telling stories: Is there a you smelling the flower? Or is there only the experience of smell...

When you open your eyes, what happens? Is there a you looking out of two holes in your head?
Are you doing seeing? Or are the sights just here, without any boundary? Check it!!

[clearblu]

That's right. When you point to 'me' and open your eyes, what you SEE is everything. No separation. None. 

Ok I don't see a me, as I said only objects, room, parts of the body, but separation is still here, what is 'I see everything?'
I would like to be clear on this Nona: what do you mean by non separation? This body is separated from other bodies, it is separated from other objects. I never understood what is this non separation. I see separate objects. I might not be able to have a direct experience....space is still here between stuff.

Close your eyes. With eyes closed, search for the boundary of you. Where do you end and where does the world begin? 

The boundary is imagined, there are sensations in the body, might be called aliveness or just energy, but with the eyes closed the boundary is only imagined and the separation is between the body and the no body, the rest of the world. I mean the body is separated from the chair, Isn't it?

In your direct experience, how tall are you? How old? How many toes do you have? 

You who? The body? In direct experience I don't see myself, no idea about age or toes. I can only know through thinking.

Couldn't you be any shape? Can you feel a boundary between skin and clothes, or is this only a kind of blurry sensation?

 

Thoughts are always in the way.The feeling is that one of a blurry sensation but images and thoughts are covering direct experience .

Smell a rose or dogshit. Without thinking, without telling stories: Is there a you smelling the flower? Or is there only the experience of smell... 

once again images and thoughts make the brain believes that there is a body smelling

When you open your eyes, what happens? Is there a you looking out of two holes in your head?
Are you doing seeing? Or are the sights just here, without any boundary? Check it!!

It seems I need to step into another world from the mind ( thoughts, abstraction, images)to direct experience.

No, there is not a me, there is a sense of location though. Looking now I see many things but of course I cannot see the whole body since the eyes are located in one part of it.
Is this the looking that I am supposed to do?

One thing I see clearly is how the story of me, is always imagined.

Thanks Nona.

[nonaparry]

Clear, you are overthinking here.

This body is separated from other bodies, it is separated from other objects. I never understood what is this non separation. I see separate objects. I might not be able to have a direct experience....space is still here between stuff.

There are separate bodies, yes!! And separate objects.
Body and objects exist in reality.
But 'self' is not the body; it is not an object; it does not exist in reality.

There is no 'self' separate from what's happening. No little broken-off piece of Life that is a special 'me' that i own and can direct and control separate from the Whole.

The boundary is imagined, there are sensations in the body, might be called aliveness or just energy, but with the eyes closed the boundary is only imagined

Good; this is reporting direct experience!

the separation is between the body and the no body, the rest of the world. I mean the body is separated from the chair, Isn't it?

This is Thinking about what you experienced.

You did not experience separation; you Thought it must be true, so you reported it.
Look at the language you used. "Boundary is only imagined." Then where did "separation is between body and no body" come from??? It wasn't experienced; you thought it up! This boundary was imagined, as you pointed out!

*****Please pay close attention to how you did this; this is how the story of a 'self' gets created and believed in.
You have experiences, but you ignore them and add a story of 'how you think it's supposed to be'.

In direct experience I don't see myself, no idea about age or toes.

YES!!! Notice that! In your Direct Experience, there is no 'myself' seen!

I can only know through thinking.

Says who??? Says the mind that is determined to hold on to the imaginary self?
If that were true, what is the use of the senses at all? Do you have to Think about being cold in order to know you are cold? Do you have to Think about fire in order to know you've been burned?

Thoughts are always in the way.The feeling is that one of a blurry sensation but images and thoughts are covering direct experience.

NOTICE that! One of the thoughts that gets in the way of direct experiencing is a thought called 'self'. What happens when you stop Thinking for a moment and simply Focus on direct experience? Without thinking about it, FEEL your feet striking the ground as walking happens, FEEL the hot soapy water on your hands as washing happens, FEEL the chest rising and falling as breathing happens. Where is 'self' when you are not thinking about it?

images and thoughts make the brain believes that there is a body smelling

The body IS smelling; where is 'me' when smelling happens??

It seems I need to step into another world from the mind ( thoughts, abstraction, images)to direct experience.

YESSSS!!!!! Get out of mind entirely! Mind has its uses, but is not helpful in seeing through its own stories!!!

No, there is not a me, there is a sense of location though.

Sense of location is not 'self'; there are proprioceptive sensors all over the body that relay information about the body's "location', its relative position in space.

Looking now I see many things but of course I cannot see the whole body since the eyes are located in one part of it.

YES!

Is this the looking that I am supposed to do?

YESSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!

One thing I see clearly is how the story of me, is always imagined.

YES!!! That's IT!

One thing for sure is you are not going to hear angels singing or a big boom either. It’s just like seeing and recognizing that there is no Santa, no Batman, no imaginary cup. Just a dropping of belief in a 'self'.

So answer this fully and in great detail: Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

[clearblu]

There are separate bodies, yes!! And separate objects. 
Body and objects exist in reality. 
But 'self' is not the body; it is not an object; it does not exist in reality.

 

I see this, that the body is just a body. I wanted to be sure I understood what you mean by separation.

There is no 'self' separate from what's happening. No little broken-off piece of Life that is a special 'me' that i own and can direct and control separate from the Whole.

I can see that there is no self in reality because I didn't find it, the me is in thoughts ( I think, I look, I walk, these are thoughts, in reality there is a body organism that walks, not me).
I am confused about the separation thing.

 

the separation is between the body and the no body, the rest of the world. I mean the body is separated from the chair, Isn't it?

This is Thinking about what you experienced. 

You did not experience separation; you Thought it must be true, so you reported it. 




Look at the language you used. "Boundary is only imagined." Then where did "separation is between body and no body" come from??? It wasn't experienced; you thought it up! This boundary was imagined, as you pointed out!

I think there is a misunderstanding here when I said separation between body and no body I observed with my eyes open and of course I saw that the chair is separated from the body and all the rest, may be if we look with a special instrument this is not even true but with simple eyes yes....while when I said' boundary is imagined' I had eyes closed and so of course this was a thought.

*****Please pay close attention to how you did this; this is how the story of a 'self' gets created and believed in. 
You have experiences, but you ignore them and add a story of 'how you think it's supposed to be'.

­
Yes is very difficult to describe experiences just for what they are in reality without entering in a story of cause and effect.
 

I can only know through thinking.

Says who??? Says the mind that is determined to hold on to the imaginary self?
If that were true, what is the use of the senses at all? Do you have to Think about being cold in order toknow you are cold? Do you have to Think about fire in order to know you've been burned?

Ok this is another thing.The senses is direct experience. sight, hearing, touch, smell and taste. No I don't have to think. But if you ask how old are you? I need to think about the story. The story 'says' that I am 46. But you 'who'? The story 'says' that the body is 46.

NOTICE that! One of the thoughts that gets in the way of direct experiencing is a thought called 'self'. What happens when you stop Thinking for a moment and simply Focus on direct experience? Without thinking about it, FEEL your feet striking the ground as walking happens, FEEL the hot soapy water on your hands as washing happens, FEEL the chest rising and falling as breathing happens. Where is 'self' when you are not thinking about it?

There is only a sense of alertness, cognisance, feeling.

Sense of location is not 'self'; there are proprioceptive sensors all over the body that relay information about the body's "location', its relative position in space.

This is very useful to know,because I always believed that the sense of location was 'me'

So answer this fully and in great detail: Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

What I see is that 'me' is an idea that almost always is attached to the body experiences( brain activity mostly) this attachment is so automatic that one almost never notices it.
Before starting this inquiry I started to doubt this and during the inquiry with you I started to see that the body cannot be the me and the brain also cannot be the me. Where is the me? Where am I? I/me is contained in thoughts, in the mind.
So I can say that I/me is “ present” like a thought and was always like this. Well, may be not as a newborn, but since the brain started to develop.
So there is no story of me in reality, or better there is only a story of me, no reality.

[nonaparry]

I think there is a misunderstanding here

Ah, my mistake! Thanks for clearing this up. You're doing some really good work here!!!

The story 'says' that I am 46. But you 'who'? The story 'says' that the body is 46.

Exactly! All that 'knowledge' about 'self' that we don't experience directly is part of the fictional story of 'self'.

Where is 'self' when you are not thinking about it?

There is only a sense of alertness, cognisance, feeling.

Yes. And is sense of alertness, cognisance, feeling a 'self' in reality at all??

I always believed that the sense of location was 'me'

Sense of merely refers to sensations. Sensations are stimuli that are reported to the brain after they have been biased by Perception.
There is a wonderful experiment done by neuroscientists in which through the use of mirrors and cameras they get the patient to 'identify' with a doll's body located on the far side of the room!

Where is the me? Where am I? I/me is contained in thoughts, in the mind. there is only a story of me, no reality.

YES. Really good Looking here!!

Now please explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

[clearblu]

Where is 'self' when you are not thinking about it?

Yes, I see. It looks even too simple now.

Yes. And is sense of alertness, cognisance, feeling a 'self' in reality at all??

It is not I. Thoughts say I feel, I am alert, I know. But I is an empty word. There are feelings, there is alertness, there is cognisance, there is life.

There is a wonderful experiment done by neuroscientists in which through the use of mirrors and cameras they get the patient to 'identify' with a doll's body located on the far side of the room! 

Sounds interesting, is there a video?

Now please explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

It is an illusion because when I it is looked for it is not found. I exist only in the mind (in thoughts).
Thoughts create a story that there is someone who is having a life, it is quite amazing! There is no one.
There is no me. What I thought I was doesn't exist, it is a fiction! Instead there is a body with no owner.
What happens here is that even if the illusion is seen, it still goes on. I thought that it would disappear.
So a doubt arises, have I really seen?

It must start very early in life because I don't recall a time when I didn't feel I!! Probably when the child starts to use language and relate with others, suddenly there is me, my mother, my father, my friends. Suddenly there is a world populated by individuals with their own I.

Thinking now about 'my story' and seeing that there was not me, makes me think at how much unnecessary suffering I went through. Because most of the suffering is in the story, in thoughts about me.

Thanks for your help Nona.

[nonaparry]

What happens here is that even if the illusion is seen, it still goes on. I thought that it would disappear.
So a doubt arises, have I really seen?

Oh, Really Good Noticing!!! Yes; it's still there—only now you see through it!
And check it: where is the doubt? You say "I thought that it would disappear."
When a doubt, which is a thought, arises, can you shift into Direct Experience, into this-moment-Now, and LOOK with your eyes again?
Once seen, illusion of self cannot be unseen; it can only be reinforced by the thoughts/fiction that created it in the first place!

Thinking now about 'my story' and seeing that there was not me, makes me think at how much unnecessary suffering I went through.

"Unnecessary"? Really?? Or, in truth, necessary in order to get you to this moment of SEEing?

Life happens so perfectly; now it's blind, then now it sees. How awesome is that??!!

How does it feel to see through the illusion of self?

[clearblu]

Oh, Really Good Noticing!!! Yes; it's still there—only now you see through it! 
And check it: where is the doubt? You say "I thought that it would disappear." 
When a doubt, which is a thought, arises, can you shift into Direct Experience, into this-moment-Now, and LOOK with your eyes again? 

Yes I can look and the doubt is just a thought. It comes and goes.

How does it feel to see through the illusion of self?

A certain peacefulness, less expectations about other people or things, a certain lightness. All of this is very subtle but good. Feels true.

Sorry for being very brief Nona, at the moment there is not much to say.

[nonaparry]

at the moment there is not much to say.

That's fine; i will let you know when detail is required.

How would you describe it to somebody who is interested but has never heard about this illusion?

[clearblu]

How would you describe it to somebody who is interested but has never heard about this illusion?

I would say that it is the biggest unquestioned assumption ever!
I would say that if you really look carefully you will discover that me is just a word/thought.
There is not such thing as an individual I separated from life. There is a body, a brain, feelings, thoughts, but there is no owner of them. The owner is an illusion. And this illusion can be seen for what it is.
We think we are individuals with free will. But there is no individual and there is no free will.
Life happens, the world happens.No one is in control. There are also scientific experiments regarding the illusion of control. There is no controller. I would say that the illusion of self is not destroyed but is possible to see that it is an illusion.

[nonaparry]

Dearest clear, you are through. What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Answer this and i will ask for confirmation from other guides who may have additional questions. Welcome home.

We have an aftercare group on Facebook called Unleashed. If you will friend me, Nona Parry, i will add you once i have confirmation. Since i don't know your name, be sure and let me know it's you!

Thank you so much for your openness throughout this process!!

[clearblu]

Dearest clear, you are through. What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Just realized quite clearly that thoughts cannot be owned. Nothing can be owned because there is no owner! The whole concept of ownership is a fallacy...but the paradox is that everyone behaves like an owner. Even now that it is seen that there is no me, thoughts of ownership arise. :-)

I would like to thank you very much for your direct and sincere help Nona.
At the moment I am not on FB anymore, I deleted my account just before joining the forum. I would like to take a break from it. However I saw that there are a few interesting blogs to follow like Marked Eternal and others.
I will contact you if I decide to go back to fb.

My name is Anne.

Thank you so much for your openness throughout this process!!

Your pointers were very clear! Thank you again.

Much love.

[nonaparry]

Thank you with all my heart, Anne!! You did a wonderful job of work here!!

love
Nona