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[MichaelD]

HI Jay,

So sorry that I didn't see your post. I looked on Friday didn't see it. It is now late so I will respond tomorrow.

I hope that is ok.

You also may have felt slighted by my saying that two of your posts were similar. Clunsyness on my part. The content wasn't but I meant the same combination of great observations and then the odd sentence that I find difficult to understand. Please don't take offense.

Will check in with you tomorrow properly.

Warm regards,

Michael

[Jay7]

Hi Michael,

So sorry that I didn't see your post. I looked on Friday didn't see it. It is now late so I will respond tomorrow. I hope that is ok

.
Not a problem at all!

You also may have felt slighted by my saying that two of your posts were similar.

I didn't feel that way at all. They were similiar and was agreeing. Repeating themselves. That was on your end, not mine, its not clumsy.

The content wasn't but I meant the same combination of great observations and then the odd sentence that I find difficult to understand. Please don't take offense

.
Michael, your assuming that i took offense when honestly i thought nothing of what you said. Its okay you didnt understand some parts of what i was saying, its fine.
Jay

[MichaelD]

Jay,

A fantastic post! Thanks.

Yesterday I saw that you had posted on Thursday. I checked on Friday but obviously didn't see it. Yesterday I posted an apology but today saw that wasnt there on our thread.

You also may have taken offense when I mentioned repetition - I wasn't referring to content. So sorry for my lack of clarity. I meant loads of discriotion that is amazing and indicates that you have seen no-self and then some sentences that I am unable to understand.

Any way - Double apologies to you Jay.

I don't want to write more now in case this doesn't post (recently changed my password so perhaps it has caused a glitch).

So am posting this now and will check in a short while to see if it has worked.

If it has I will reply to your post later today.

Looks fantastic having re-read it doday. Well done!

Michael

[Jay7]

Hi Michael,
No problem. It can be hard to connect online about what people are saying, their intent, etc. Especially with a topic as deep as this lol. Hope your having a good weekend....
Jay

[MichaelD]

Hi Jay,

Now I can see my previous lost post and that you have replied to that too. Very glad that you haven't been upset.

Personally as far as I can tell you have seen no-self. Your answers from 2-6 come from your recent experience and unfolding insight, are wonderful, and a delight to read. Fantastic!!

Well done.

Can you humour me by answering one last question before I recommend that our thread is checked by senior guides. (After that there may be a question or two but we will deal with anything else as it unfolds).

So, can you categorically state with a big fat capital letters "YES!" that you have seen through the illusion of a seperate self.

That's all Bro.

Simple as that.

Warmly,

Michael

[Jay7]

Hi Michael,
Yes. I do have another question though. Despite the change in perception, still dealing with the challenges, problems of this life through my conditioning. I'm finding them still there but way easier to spot and deal with. Is this what you experienced or did? Also been having headaches and feeling tired as of late.
Jay

[MichaelD]

Hi Jay,

Great to see your answer.

For me it has largely been easy but I had 35 years of Dharma practice under my belt and had dealt with loads of shit. As a result it rarely hits ther fan these days.

Life and previous conditioning will throw up stuff though but this isn't the place to investigate that. However there are groups and forums where you can explore your new perspective with other folk and which you will soon be invited to.

First though I will post our conversation where it can be checked by other guides. They may have a question or two in which case I will put them to you. This may take a couple of days so hang loose.

Relax and let anything that wants to unfold.

Warmly,

Michael

[Jay7]

Thanks Michael.

[MichaelD]

Hi Jay,

An experienced guide has read our conversation and wants to ask two questions:

Jay writes:

dealing with the challenges, problems of this life through my conditioning
For him to see, that also the notion of "I am conditioned" is just a story, could you ask him:

Yes, there is a story about conditioning going on. But are you really conditioned in any way?
Please have a look at present experience.
What exactly is conditioned?

Furthermore:

Jay writes:

Looking back at this life, deeply, i realized much of what has gone on was NEVER in "my" control at all

Could you please ask him:
Was something in your control?
Could you look back again and give me an example if you can find one?

It will help you become clearer.

Have fun!

Michael

[Jay7]

Yes, there is a story about conditioning going on. But are you really conditioned in any way?
Please have a look at present experience.
What exactly is conditioned?

Yes the body/mind is conditioned but see beyond it. There is still the limited conditioning going on that was there but I I don't identify with it like I used to at all. Despite this change thats still there, problems are still there, but its seen from a different perspective. Example, something might happen to me. Say a friend getting upset and taking it out on me. My old self would take it personally, from this perspective he would be acting out his own mind and its not personal to a "me." Or like last night i was talking to my friend. He was worried about his gf losing his necklace and creating assumptions etc about something that already happened, a storyline of events. Saw it clearly nothing happened, there is no problem in the moment and tried to help him realize this. It didnt work, but I saw there was nothing to worry about. What is condioned is the body, the mind, and the things that happened in life that still happen. I'm basically living the same life but just through a different lens. I am still trying to wrap my brain around this why I came. I just honestly see the ego creating false stories in the mind and carrying them to the extreme and that includes one's own sense of self. That is very clear like watching my friend. So, its like cutting the stories off and seeing it for what it is, whatever appears. Its clear to me you don't need to create a storyline around anything.

Could you please ask him:
Was something in your control?
Could you look back again and give me an example if you can find one?

Looking back its kinda crazy but nothing much was in my control at all. Didnt chose mostly any of it. I wanted to study psychology and become a counselor. I ended a 13 year relationship two years ago that didnt see coming. "I" have thought a lot of things and most of them haven't been reality in all. So, the I has basically failed to translate lots of hopes and desires into reality. These are good questions makes this even deeper looking back. It feels like this was all set up. The thinking from the mind that it had any control is easier to see. It didnt.

[MichaelD]

Hi Jay,

Thanks.

I'll deal with the second one first:

Could you please ask him:
Was something in your control?
Could you look back again and give me an example if you can find one?

Looking back its kinda crazy but nothing much was in my control at all. Didnt chose mostly any of it. I wanted to study psychology and become a counselor. I ended a 13 year relationship two years ago that didnt see coming. "I" have thought a lot of things and most of them haven't been reality in all. So, the I has basically failed to translate lots of hopes and desires into reality. These are good questions makes this even deeper looking back. It feels like this was all set up. The thinking from the mind that it had any control is easier to see. It didnt.

At the beginning of your reply you say nothing much was in your control by the end you are stating that nothing is in 'your' control. Can you see why I keep asking you to take your time when writing replies.....

Which is it?

1. Is there control (by a seperate "I", or self, or not?

Yes, there is a story about conditioning going on. But are you really conditioned in any way?
Please have a look at present experience.
What exactly is conditioned?

There is still the limited conditioning going on that was there but I don't identify with it like I used to at all.

2. What "I" doesn't identify with it?

Despite this change thats still there, problems are still there, but its seen from a different perspective. Example, something might happen to me. Say a friend getting upset and taking it out on me. My old self would take it personally, from this perspective he would be acting out his own mind and its not personal to a "me."

Great!

Or like last night i was talking to my friend. He was worried about his gf losing his necklace and creating assumptions etc about something that already happened, a storyline of events. Saw it clearly nothing happened, there is no problem in the moment and tried to help him realize this. It didnt work, but I saw there was nothing to worry about. What is condioned is the body, the mind, and the things that happened in life that still happen.

Yes.

I'm basically living the same life but just through a different lens. I am still trying to wrap my brain around this why I came. I just honestly see the ego creating false stories in the mind and carrying them to the extreme and that includes one's own sense of self. That is very clear like watching my friend. So, its like cutting the stories off and seeing it for what it is, whatever appears. Its clear to me you don't need to create a storyline around anything.

Yes.

What may help with the confusion is to use the language of 'selfing'. Although you have seen no-self and the mind is quieter stories are still created. The difference now is that you know longer believe in them. Also as you have already spotted they tend to drop away when noticed.

There are two questions above and here is another:

3. Can you see conditioning in direct experience?


Please take your time. Be as accurate as you can as by doing so it will help you become clearer and confusion will diminish.

Have fun.

Warmly,

Michael

[Jay7]

HI Michael,

1. Is there control (by a seperate "I", or self, or not?

You have to understand this is all brand new to me. I'm trying to figure this out and "intergrate" this. Its been five weeks not five years. I appreciate the questions and have been asking them of myself but I doubt there are going to be any concrete answers as of now. If your looking to evaluate absolutes then maybe this isn't for me. In this i have my doubts about what happened, and what I am experiencing so my language as I write may reflect that. No, as i live more after this shift it feels like i have zero control and looking back its apparent that i never did. I do have some times where i doubt things and that might show up in my language at times. A good friend and a couple books i read says it can take years after to integrate it. So, if the expectation is for concret answers and not totally clarity, i'm sorry i cant give that. I have said over and over through my thread the seperate self is a mask for the ego to play its little games. My mind isn't a problem its all the self identifications and storylines that are.
2. What "I" doesn't identify with it?

Again, like i have said in other posts, it feels like a presence or stillness that isnt involved in anything. This is what allows to see the fake ego and its self. And your correct, it allows to see the stories as false and what they are.

3. Can you see conditioning in direct experience?

Again, yes. I still have the same problems, genetics, body and mind. I have everyday life problems. But again, from the new perspective its tons easier to see it and work with. I highly doubt for anyone that their conditoning is going to go away and all that. For me what my experience is, its not taken as seriously and seeing the stories and the fakeness of the ego, there is little effort from the reflection of Presence or stillness to see it and let it go. I feel in reflection there is only so many ways I can talk about this without returning to some basic starting point. A total shift in the way one see's one life, oneself, dramatically, isn't going to come out as absolutes about the experience and all that. Its going to be bumpy ride because its a adjustment.

I think im at a stage where i'm trying to intergrate this experience, what it means to my life now. I'm wondering what my life will be now, what i want to do, lots of questions. Its freeing in knowing that this moment is all there is and its all gone the past, but its also weird and confusing in the part of what to do with that. It should be easy? Things also appear kind of meaningless at times too.
Thanks Michael.
Jay

[Jay7]

to add to my last post a friend told me that after reading books and all that, they will start to be saying the same thing over and over, the core content, though the teachings may appear different because each person had their own shift or experience in their own way. That's been exactly my experience. There are so many ways for the mind to validate, explain, question and look for truths, awakening, look for markers etc. But I also think that's more ego trying to figure it out and validate someone who has "seen" or awake can turn into another game. On the other hand since I have been on this thread its been really helpful some of the questions to reflect on it. So to me, its a mixed bag. At the end of the day, its simply presence or stillness and a false story playing out...……….

[MichaelD]

Hi Jay,

Blimey that was quick.

My own view is that you have seen. Simple as that.

What you say is wonderful and since your need now is to understand more fully what has happenned and (as you say) integrate your new experience / perspective.

For that you are better served in other forums rather than in this Gate forum.

I will re-post our recent conversation in the 'end of Conversation' forum and get back to you.

Just be with whatever is as it unfolds.

Warmly

Michael

[MichaelD]

Hi Jay,

I forgot to say:

There could be a further question or two but please don't see it like a test, or that you are being made to jump through hoops.

More a journey towards greater clarity.

Also you are right it is a very difficult area to talk about (Awakening) because the whole structure of our language is dualistic and issuing from the commonly held illusion that there is a self.

Tricky!

Kevin