Breaking Free

[poppyseed]

Hi Robyn
There has been so much effort to pay attention on AEs that even my sleep has been interrupted. I dream how I keep saying "it's just a thought" and then I wake up. The same thing repeats many times. I hope that's a good sign or maybe it's just a coincidence. No expectations here :)

I got now the fine detail/nuance with respect to "I" being a label instead of the content of thoughts.

Actually, the 'label, I" is a way of referring to the content of thoughts, "I." The labeling happens as thought content. Haha. Funny to describe with words. At any rate, is this clear to you?

Yes, it is clear. The labeling makes the "I" the subject of the content, but still mental formation. Labeling is the perception of "I", the recognition that the thought is about "I".

Have you noticed that thoughts are not really orderly or continuous? We have thoughts that say that thoughts are structured a particular way. If it's not clear for you that this isn't so, I suggest that for the next day, look at thoughts.

Thoughts are absolutely random but there is attention on particular thoughts which again is a mental formation, and more thoughts about how thoughts come in order. I DE you can see how if there is no attention to content and thoughts are just seen as thoughts (with a sneak peek on content) that they are absolutely random.

What controls thought content?
Is thought content true?

"I" doesn't control thoughts. They come from the mind, which is their "sense organ". Thought content is just a story. It's like reading a book about a character named "Rey". The more you read the more you feel for the character and start relating to her/him

"I" am feeling in a good space right now :))

Love, Rey xxx

[Artst]

Hi, Rey,

There has been so much effort to pay attention on AEs that even my sleep has been interrupted.

What is actually known of this in DE?

I hope that's a good sign or maybe it's just a coincidence.

Insidious, isn't it? The pull toward story/thought content! Where's the I that hopes? Is this AE or thought content?

They come from the mind, which is their "sense organ".

Really? How is this known? Is this AE or thought content?

Here's the deal. It's not both ways. It's not just when looking at DE that there is no I. It's knowing that the thought I refers to nothing actual at all, ever.

When there is a thought, "tree outside the window," it refers to something real (provided there's a tree outside the window. What does the thought, "I" refer to?

Love,

Robyn

[poppyseed]

Hi Robyn

Straight to the point...

There has been so much effort to pay attention on AEs that even my sleep has been interrupted.

What is actually known of this in DE?

I suppose dream state is something else, but in a wake state it's definitely thought. But then again "wake" or "dream state" is also a thought. I suppose even in a dream state it's still a thought

I hope that's a good sign or maybe it's just a coincidence.

Insidious, isn't it? The pull toward story/thought content! Where's the I that hopes? Is this AE or thought content?

Nobody that hopes, it's just a thought

They come from the mind, which is their "sense organ".

Really? How is this known? Is this AE or thought content?

I see your point. It's a thought. In AE it can't be seen where there are coming from - they just appear. I suppose the same goes for eyes, ears, tongue, skin and nose.

Here's the deal. It's not both ways. It's not just when looking at DE that there is no I. It's knowing that the thought I refers to nothing actual at all, ever.

When there is a thought, "tree outside the window," it refers to something real (provided there's a tree outside the window. What does the thought, "I" refer to?

I understand that. I don't know exactly what I said that provoked you to say that. "I" can't be really found in the content of the thoughts like "a tree" (even the tree is not THAT real - it goes to our perceptions/labeling), "I" can't be touched, smelled, heard, seen or tasted - it is just a reference to something that does not exist. But that reference is quite catchy and it's not catchy to anybody :)) , but just is. I suppose not dwelling in the content helps reduce that stickiness, otherwise the knowing is there. It's like an old bad habit. (which is still a story :) ).

Love, Rey xxx

[Artst]

Hi, Rey,

I suppose dream state is something else, but in a wake state it's definitely thought. But then again "wake" or "dream state" is also a thought. I suppose even in a dream state it's still a thought

I wasn't referring to the dream state, I was referring to the story about why you were dreaming what you dreamed. The minute there's a story, explanation, theory, analysis, it's all thought contents. Do you see this?

I suppose the same goes for eyes, ears, tongue, skin and nose.

Is this AE? Is "supposing" something that happens in AE or is it thought content?

But that reference is quite catchy and it's not catchy to anybody :)) , but just is.

Can it be catchy without its being catchy to anybody? What is "that reference is quite catchy?"

I suppose not dwelling in the content helps reduce that stickiness, otherwise the knowing is there. It's like an old bad habit. (which is still a story :) ).

Is there an expectation that the "I" thoughts will or should go away or diminish?
Is there the idea that there's some elusive 'you' that can stop the 'habit' of certain thoughts arising?
Is there such thing as a habit?

It's like an old bad habit. (which is still a story :) ).

If you are clear it's a story, why report it? Is there such a thing as a habit? What has a habit?

From what you write, there's a pattern of acknowledging that 'you' report stories but still the reporting of stories/thought content continues. The I thoughts are not going to stop -- does this mean that there is an I or that 'you' haven't seen through the illusion?

Is there any question for you that I is an illusion?

Sending love,

Robyn

[poppyseed]

Hi Robyn

Life in DE is so vivid. I had the best shower ever and it felt like I've never actually showered before.
Your observations were spot on and they resonated deeply somewhere. I feel like sending you an empty reply as the minute something is written or verbalized, it comes out wrong and not fully describing what is. But I'll try for the sake of completing the self inquiry.

I wasn't referring to the dream state, I was referring to the story about why you were dreaming what you dreamed. The minute there's a story, explanation, theory, analysis, it's all thought contents. Do you see this?

Yes

I suppose the same goes for eyes, ears, tongue, skin and nose.

Is this AE? Is "supposing" something that happens in AE or is it thought content?

Thought content

But that reference is quite catchy and it's not catchy to anybody :)) , but just is.

Can it be catchy without its being catchy to anybody? What is "that reference is quite catchy?"

No, still thought content. The stickiness appeared to come from living everyday life, communication with people, responsibilities etc - playing a certain role. Now it is realized that all that is still thought content. There is no such thing as "Inception" (the movie) and different layers of existing. One is an illusion and the other is just being. It's like thinking of eating a chocolate and actually eating the chocolate. No comparison between them at all. There seems to be not just an illusion of self but also an illusion of living.

Is there an expectation that the "I" thoughts will or should go away or diminish?

"I" thoughts will continue to appear as they can't be controlled (expectation or no expectation), what's important is the realization that they are just that - thoughts - and not determining the "status quo" (state of being)

Is there the idea that there's some elusive 'you' that can stop the 'habit' of certain thoughts arising?

There was an idea of elusive "I" maybe not exactly stopping the habit, but experiencing the DEs. An elusive "I" was claiming the experience. Now that it's been pointed to, it is realized that it is just more thought content. A "headless" experience makes a lot more sense now

Is there such thing as a habit?

No, because that would mean that there is somebody who is habituated. More thought content

Is there any question for you that I is an illusion?

Not really, but if you think of something, fire away

Robyn, I can't hank you enough for persevering with me and being what I needed you to be!
Love, Rey xxx

[Artst]

Dear Rey,

Life in DE is so vivid. I had the best shower ever and it felt like I've never actually showered before.

Yahoo! There is a shift!

Now it is realized that all that is still thought content.

Yes, yes, yes!

Rey, I could write 'yay' and 'yahoo' in reply to every one of the answers. Congratulations!

Not really, but if you think of something, fire away

Hahaha! I've got nothing.

Except...there are some 'final questions' designed specifically to make sure that all aspects of the illusion have been seen through. Are you ready for me to send them to you?

Love,

Robyn

[poppyseed]

Except...there are some 'final questions' designed specifically to make sure that all aspects of the illusion have been seen through. Are you ready for me to send them to you?

Yes, please :)

[Artst]

Dear Rey,

Here you go! When I've read your answers, I may have more questions to assist with clarity. If not, I'll ask some other guides to take a look to see if there's anything I missed. Then, when all that is complete, you will be invited to join LU Aftercare.

Also, I think you'd make a good guide. You will be given information to move in that direction, as well.

Here are the questions. Take as much time as you like/need.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
 
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.  What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Sent with love,
Robyn

[poppyseed]

Hey Robyn

Here you go! When I've read your answers, I may have more questions to assist with clarity. If not, I'll ask some other guides to take a look to see if there's anything I missed. Then, when all that is complete, you will be invited to join LU Aftercare.

OK

Also, I think you'd make a good guide. You will be given information to move in that direction, as well.

Thank you! I would seriously consider this as I really appreciated your help and I understand how important this is, but for now it's better to let realizations sink in a bit.

Here we go

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, there isn't, never has been and there never will be. These are just labels not pointing to anything existing.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

It is a make-believe story made of thoughts, a mental construct about an entity that does not exist. The illusion is the sense of being this independent entity which experiences life, has been born and it will die one day. It starts at some point in childhood. I have this very clear childhood memory of me standing in front of a mirror and recognizing myself for the first time as though before that there has been only darkness. From that point "living in society", "roles", "conditioning" etc reinforce this belief and keep the illusion going. Seeing all this directly and clearly, not just intellectually, the illusion of a self becomes obvious at which point it ceases. It is then observed as a chain of thought-stories which appear spontaneously and then disappear.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Honestly, it feels liberating, like a huge weight has been lifted. It makes life a lot simpler and more enjoyable in a Winnie-the-Pooh kind of way. For the past few days of intense looking, there has been a feeling of a "different" mode of living - more vivid and "tactile", like things have been experienced for the first time. They are still a lot of moments of "autopilot", but there is also an awareness of it happening, which spontaneously brings back just being. Life is different and yet the same. Things are happening, but they are not happening to anybody and as such they are not to be dwelled upon. Mostly, they are seen as experiences.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

The realization of no control over what comes in awareness, but also seeing that all doubts are just thought content not pointing to anything existing. Overall it was the "intense effort" of looking at DEs.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

The "I" believes that makes the decision, intends, has free will, choice and control, but in reality things happen on their own without any "management", so now what's left is just being :)

Looking forward to reading your comments and questions, if they are any

Love, Rey xxx

[Artst]

Dear Rey,

Thank you for the answers.

Thank you! I would seriously consider this as I really appreciated your help and I understand how important this is, but for now it's better to let realizations sink in a bit.

Wonderful!

A couple of questions for clarification:

Overall it was the "intense effort" of looking at DEs.

Are there separate Direct Experiences? Then, also Indirect Experiences? Or does Direct Experience refer to where to look at what's happening?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

You didn't address these two parts of the question.

Rey, when you send these back will you please copy and paste the rest of your questions and answers as well, so they'll be easy for the other guides to look over? Thank you!

Love,

Robyn

[poppyseed]

Hi Robyn

I somehow missed those two last questions...

Are there separate Direct Experiences? Then, also Indirect Experiences? Or does Direct Experience refer to where to look at what's happening?

No, DEs are not separate but it is where you look at what's happening as they point to things which exist.

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

You didn't address these two parts of the question.

There is nobody that is responsible of anything. How can one be responsible of anything if they can't make a decision, control things or have free will? It's like the sun being responsible for shining, it just does. Things just happen and nobody is responsible for them. The only responsibility is to live and just be :)

Here are the rest of the answers from my previous post

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, there isn't, never has been and there never will be. These are just labels not pointing to anything existing.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

It is a make-believe story made of thoughts, a mental construct about an entity that does not exist. The illusion is the sense of being this independent entity which experiences life, has been born and it will die one day. It starts at some point in childhood. I have this very clear childhood memory of me standing in front of a mirror and recognizing myself for the first time as though before that there has been only darkness. From that point "living in society", "roles", "conditioning" etc reinforce this belief and keep the illusion going. Seeing all this directly and clearly, not just intellectually, the illusion of a self becomes obvious at which point it ceases. It is then observed as a chain of thought-stories which appear spontaneously and then disappear.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Honestly, it feels liberating, like a huge weight has been lifted. It makes life a lot simpler and more enjoyable in a Winnie-the-Pooh kind of way. For the past few days of intense looking, there has been a feeling of a "different" mode of living - more vivid and "tactile", like things have been experienced for the first time. They are still a lot of moments of "autopilot", but there is also an awareness of it happening, which spontaneously brings back just being. Life is different and yet the same. Things are happening, but they are not happening to anybody and as such they are not to be dwelled upon. Mostly, they are seen as experiences.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

The realization of no control over what comes in awareness, but also seeing that all doubts are just thought content not pointing to anything existing. Overall it was the "intense effort" of looking at DEs.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

The "I" believes that makes the decision, intends, has free will, choice and control, but in reality things happen on their own without any "management", so now what's left is just being :)

Love, Rey xxx

[Artst]

Hi, Rey,

Great! I'm sending it on to other guides to see if I missed anything.

Love,

Robyn

[Artst]

Dear Rey,

The other guides have no other questions. Your thread has been moved to the Archives section of LU and you should have received a message letting you know that you are welcome to join two groups.

I'm going to send you a private message as well.

It has been a pure joy guiding you! Thank you!

Love,

Robyn

[poppyseed]

Hi Robyn

I did receive a message. Thank you so much for all your effort and help! It was really appreciated.
All the best!

Love, Rey xxx