Seeing through the illusion

[Clearstream]

Now, can any sensations in the body be felt?
Watch them moving and changing for a moment.
Where are these sensations located, exactly?
Do not rely on memory of the body’s shape, or any kind of thought analysis.
Just on pure sensation.
Where are the sensations located in space?

Does the feeling of a sensation come actually with a label of its physical location?
Or is this just added after by thought?

Sensations can continuously be felt. Thoughts arise, placing sensations here or there, but looking before thought, there is just the sensations arising. They are in a space, but it's hard to place where that really is.

Still without moving.
Without relying on memory.
Only looking at sensation in the present moment NOW.
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Can it be known what the volume of the body is?
Can it be known where the boundary of the body ends, and the bed or other surface beneath begins?

None of these things can be known with my eyes closed without using memory. I experience no "bed", not even "body". Just sensations arisings in a space with no discernible boundaries.

Is the body experiencing the world?
Or is the body experienced?

It is clear. The body is not the experiencer; it is experienced. It just happens to be present seemingly all the time.

[gondwana]

Sensations can continuously be felt. Thoughts arise, placing sensations here or there, but looking before thought, there is just the sensations arising. They are in a space, but it's hard to place where that really is.

Yes, clearly seen! They are sort of everywhere and nowhere all at once, eh?

None of these things can be known with my eyes closed without using memory. I experience no "bed", not even "body". Just sensations arisings in a space with no discernible boundaries.

It is clear. The body is not the experiencer; it is experienced. It just happens to be present seemingly all the time

Great! So all was clearly seen.

Now, do any expectations still exist about what "enlightenment" or "awakening" might be, or bring?
Dreams of some blissful state, perhaps?

[Clearstream]

Now, do any expectations still exist about what "enlightenment" or "awakening" might be, or bring?
Dreams of some blissful state, perhaps?

Hmm... blissful state, no. It's true that I still have thoughts about what it will be like, though. Mostly, these are ideas based on experiences I've had in meditation or daily life. The moment of observing a peculiar tree and totally losing myself -- thoughts fading to the background, and just tree-ness arising. Or perhaps the flow state of being immersed in a task. And finally, I have read so many things from people in this place -- talking about the self disappearing as the eternal now arises to the foreground.

[gondwana]

experiences I've had in meditation

observing a peculiar tree and totally losing myself

thoughts fading to the background

flow state

self disappearing

eternal now arises to the foreground

Ok, a quick reality check on expectations Is helpful sometimes. All of the above are examples of impermanent states or experiences. They can arise, but they always pass away.

Sure, you may experience a plethora of wonderful or mundane things (quite probably both) after seeing there is no self, but none of those are what we are seeking here, and most importantly none will last.

This is the caveat to be careful of. All we are seeking is to see through the story as not-real. It is so simple you may almost miss it while looking for these "grand" states or experiences, which in truth are a distraction.

So now would be a good time to surrender all the above ideas of what things may be like after.

In truth, it is different for everyone, and it changes daily anyway. But what DOES change permanently, is actually the dropping of a false belief.

Can you let go of all expectations and be open to see what may appear as even the tiniest realisation when it is finally encountered?

[Clearstream]

Can you let go of all expectations and be open to see what may appear as even the tiniest realisation when it is finally encountered?

What you've said here makes a lot of sense. I see the expectations clouding my perception. Yes, for now I have let go of them, and I will watch out for them going forward.

[gondwana]

What you've said here makes a lot of sense. I see the expectations clouding my perception. Yes, for now I have let go of them, and I will watch out for them going forward.

Great :)

No criticism or effort required, just at this point in a guiding conversation it usually helps to double check and clear them out again.

Now, where does belief in a self still remain?
Where are “you” still holding on?

[gondwana]

Hi Mike,
How did you get on with that?

If you prefer, perhaps a simpler and more direct question to look at:
Is the self a real thing?
If so, where is it physically located?
Does it have a colour, shape, texture, or smell?

Looking forward to your reply!

[Clearstream]

Hi Tim,

Thanks for following up, and apologies for the lack of a reply. I was struggling to answer your question, but let me try now anyway:

Now, where does belief in a self still remain?
Where are “you” still holding on?

I’m not sure. It seems like whenever I look, I can’t find a self, but the second my mind goes to something else, the sense of self is back!

I feel like I’m failing. And then I ask “who is failing?” and I see that these are just impersonal thoughts arising, but I don’t feel like I’ve really seen through the illusion. I don’t know what to do next.

Is the self a real thing?
If so, where is it physically located?
Does it have a colour, shape, texture, or smell?

Everything in my environment has color, shape, and texture. But looking for the self, I find none of those things. I don’t find anything at all. Maybe a vague sense of self, sometimes, but I can’t find any location for it. Certainly no physical characteristics of color or shape.

Is it real? It feels that way normally, but I know from looking that it’s not.

Please help!

[gondwana]

Thanks for following up, and apologies for the lack of a reply. I was struggling to answer your question

That's perfectly ok! My original question was really just, "ok - that line of questioning seems done, maybe you tell me where you think you're still stuck?"

It seems like whenever I look, I can’t find a self, but the second my mind goes to something else, the sense of self is back!

Seems like you answered my question partly here. This experience is pretty common.
Here's a pointer for this:

Does the "self" come back?
Or does the belief in a "self" come back?

And then I ask “who is failing?” and I see that these are just impersonal thoughts arising

That is exactly right :). Keep doing that all the time, always ask "WHAT is failing?" (rather than "WHO"). And you should see only impersonal thought (i.e. emptiness).

We prefer "what" over "who" because "who" carries a subtle implication that there IS someone there and they just need to be identified -- but the word "what" allows the answer to be that there is no thing there at all!

But looking for the self, I find none of those things. I don’t find anything at all.

Is it real? It feels that way normally, but I know from looking that it’s not.

Good! Sounds like maybe just a belief remains, only a belief that there is a "self", not an actual "self"?

Like Santa Claus. You never had any direct experience of seeing him to begin with, only ever a belief that he was real. And yet you still believed it, until one day you did not. How funny! To think that we had ever believed in him at all in the first place?

Maybe a vague sense of self, sometimes

What is this "vague sense of self" exactly?
Zoom in on it with your attention, and look hard. What is it made of and where is it located?

You are right at the gate. Just keep the pressure on looking for a little longer, just a little further :)

[Clearstream]

Hi Tim,

I'm still struggling, but I am working with these pointers. Here's where I'm at:

Does the "self" come back?
Or does the belief in a "self" come back?

I know intellectually that it's just the belief that comes back, but I don't remember to bring this pointer up, else I wouldn't be identifying in the first place. Not sure what to do here.

That is exactly right :). Keep doing that all the time, always ask "WHAT is failing?" (rather than "WHO"). And you should see only impersonal thought (i.e. emptiness).

I spent a few hours today (total) just listening to thoughts and feelings, asking "what is [thinking/feeling]?" after each arising. Each time, there seems to be a second or two of letting go, but the activity of the mind resumes a moment later.

What is this "vague sense of self" exactly?
Zoom in on it with your attention, and look hard. What is it made of and where is it located?

I can't find it! Perhaps it's made of thought, but it seems to exist even without any verbal thoughts in the mind.

Thanks so much for your time. I will keep looking.

[gondwana]

You're welcome! Sorry for the delay in replying.

Each time, there seems to be a second or two of letting go, but the activity of the mind resumes a moment later.

The objective of all this is to see through the incorrect belief in a separate self.
It is not to stop mind activity or thinking.

What is this "vague sense of self" exactly?
Zoom in on it with your attention, and look hard. What is it made of and where is it located?

I can't find it! Perhaps it's made of thought, but it seems to exist even without any verbal thoughts in the mind.

Try again and LOOK closer.
It can easily be seen if looking carefully.

Is this "vague sense of self" in fact only a thought?

[gondwana]

How did this go?
Anything new to report?

[gondwana]

Hi!
Just wondering if you still want to continue with this?

[Clearstream]

Hi Tim,

It feels like so long since we've corresponded! Sorry I dropped off. I started to feel a lot of doubt with the process. Something I've been practicing very diligently is watching thoughts and the way that they create this concept of "I". But still, I don't feel a shift.

If you are still willing to continue and have an idea of how to proceed, I'm here.

Thank you.

[gondwana]

Hi Mike,
Great to hear back from you!

It feels like so long since we've corresponded! Sorry I dropped off. I started to feel a lot of doubt with the process.

No worries, and of course we can continue.

Do not feel bad about the doubts. This is actually perfectly normal, it happens a lot at this stage of the process.

We are digging up and challenging long-held (and in truth, long-cherished) beliefs. Naturally, that will often provoke some resistance, which usually tends to surface as self-doubt, or doubt in the process or one’s progress in it.

The important thing is that this reaction shows we are hitting a sensitive part deep down, which is exactly what we are aiming for. We are getting somewhere.

Something I've been practicing very diligently is watching thoughts and the way that they create this concept of "I". But still, I don't feel a shift.

That’s good! That is the right thing to do, and keep doing it. But let’s get a bit more laser-focused.

We can use that doubt you experienced. Bring the doubt back up again, and LOOK:

How do these doubts appear?

Are they in the form of thought, perhaps?
If so where did these doubt-thoughts come from?
Did “you” choose to have them, or did “you” author the content?
If not, then who/what did? And can they be trusted as 100% true & correct if the source is unknown?
Is thought ever wrong about things? Particularly with expectations of the future? (a doubt is a negative expectation)

Are they in the form of emotional feelings?
If so, what is the feeling made up of, can you separate it into components (remember the unified mindfulness technique)?
Can you see that it is a body sensation + thought label?
Is the body sensation personal, and does it say ANYTHING about what the emotion is? Or is it only sensation?
Is the label just a thought?
As above, where does that thought label come from, and is it actually valid?
Or do the body sensations actually, really mean nothing at all? Maybe they are just a plain old sensation?

What does the above tell us about the doubt
What IS this doubt?
And what entity is experiencing the doubt, exactly?

Remember to do all this in the present moment with looking at what is here right now!