I want to wake up

[andersonx]

Thanks Bill. I've been reading and re-reading your post several times over the past 2 days.

Who or what is moving the attention around? Is it really your mind? Who really owns it? Do you see how literaly all thoughts are stories? Every thought is essentially past tense in its nature.

I have a fuzzy sense of seeing. I've been watching the present moment closely, and I have a fuzzy/vague sense of seeing that every previous/past moment is just a memory, it doesn't exist. Thoughts seems to be all memories.

Lift one of your hands. either one. Move it to the right. Now move it left. Look with your eyes what is happening. Did a self move the hand? Or did the hand just move?

I'm not sure Bill. I don't know. I really can't tell if I moved the hand or the hand just moved. There's a fuzzy sense that maybe it just moved, since the whole idea of it moving, is just a thought, a memory, by the time it comes to a stop.

This seems to be how the mind functions on this:

The hand moves, but really it just is where it is.
The notion of it having moved is just a thought, a memory.
In that memory, exists the concept of the hand moving. There exists in the mind the concept that a self moved the hand.

You've been tought since you were just a young boy that yes, there
is a you and your name is Josh. We have never looked at this and
questioned whether its really true or not.

Thanks for this Bill. That helped bring some clarity, enabling me to see what I believe:

I look in the mirror and see a face and body I recognize.
It is called Josh.
I'm accustomed to believing when I look in the mirror that I am Josh.
Now that I see that this is what I believe, I can ask:
But am I Josh? Am I what I see in the mirror?
Is it possible that I am not what I perceive? That I am not what I perceive myself to be?

The answer is, I don't know. I just can't be sure right now. I can see the belief system that is currently held, and I don't know if it is true.

[Bill]

Lift one of your hands. either one. Move it to the right. Now move it left. Look with your eyes what is happening. Did a self move the hand? Or did the hand just move?
I'm not sure Bill. I don't know. I really can't tell if I moved the hand or the hand just moved. There's a fuzzy sense that maybe it just moved, since the whole idea of it moving, is just a thought, a memory, by the time it comes to a stop.

Josh - This is very normal. We 'think' that I moved the hand but upon closer
inspection it is very difficult to pin it down that an I moved it.

This seems to be how the mind functions on this:

The hand moves, but really it just is where it is.
The notion of it having moved is just a thought, a memory.
In that memory, exists the concept of the hand moving. There exists in the mind the concept that a self moved the hand.

We'll look at this below...

You've been tought since you were just a young boy that yes, there
is a you and your name is Josh. We have never looked at this and
questioned whether its really true or not.


Thanks for this Bill. That helped bring some clarity, enabling me to see what I believe:

I look in the mirror and see a face and body I recognize.
It is called Josh.
I'm accustomed to believing when I look in the mirror that I am Josh.
Now that I see that this is what I believe, I can ask:
But am I Josh? Am I what I see in the mirror?
Is it possible that I am not what I perceive? That I am not what I perceive myself to be?

The answer is, I don't know. I just can't be sure right now. I can see the belief system that is currently held, and I don't know if it is true

Josh, for sure the body is there. But the I, the me, the entity, that's what maybe we're not exactly sure of. This is what has been taken for granted for so long and believed. Is it true? We've seen how we're really not sure if there is an I controlling the thoughts or the body. Convention tells us that for sure, I am in control. But are we really? Who is in control? Do we know?

As you go through your day and move around, see if you can find that there is a self moving things around. Look for this I. As you talk, walk, drive, eat, type, check it out. Is there a self living your life? Or are all the thoughts about all of these things, including the I apparently living your life?
You don't have to decide or believe anything at all, just look at whats true for you. In life, in all your actions, keep returning to this focus on the thoughts as you move around. Simply keep checking if there is something real, besides a thought, that owns and directs the body.
Write it down. Try a stream of consciousness on a couple of things, like typing for example.

If you can pin these thoughts down and get a good look at them, it's usually very revealing.

[andersonx]

Is there a self living your life?

I just can't say Bill. I'm watching very closely, and will continue to so, and I'm really not sure.

Simply keep checking if there is something real, besides a thought, that owns and directs the body.

I'll keep doing so. A lot of stuff is coming up as I start looking at this Bill, so I'm just going to type it out. Quite a strong depression has started to arise. I think this is part of the process, and there is much inner calm and the more 'rational' types of thoughts, so don't worry about me, I'm just expressing it.

The ego, and maybe a little bit of something else, brought on the spiritual search in the first place. My ego was once suicidal, a long time ago (7 years) and wanted to kill itself, to end the suffering. When it found out there was a positive way to end the suffering, spiritual awakening, it wanted to know more.

And so there is this path (I) am on, and in complete honesty, I'm on it to find an end to my suffering. But is there really nobody here who is suffering? Who has been suffering then? What do all the painful emotions and other problems mean?

There's a lot of stuff and thoughts coming up about self-realization:

• I'm not ready for it yet, I need to reach a 'higher spiritual state' first

• I'm to full of problems and imperfections for this, I can't receive it

• It will happen at some point in the future when I'm more 'evolved'

• Since my ego, with its will, brought me here because it willed to no longer suffer, what will happen if the will and the I, who didn't want to suffer anymore, fall away?

[Bill]

Josh - you're very close.
You were fairly sure there was an entity, an I living you just a few days ago.
Now, you're not sure.

What if there really is no I living you?
What if it is just life?

So Josh with the depression, if this should deepen and get bad, do tell someone and get help.
Some of it is normal in this process. Something is dying.
I know you said not to worry. But do seek help if it should become unbearable.
We want you to get the best help you can if this is needed.

And so there is this path (I) am on, and in complete honesty, I'm on it to find an end to my suffering. But is there really nobody here who is suffering? Who has been suffering then? What do all the painful emotions and other problems mean?

you are right, there is no one there. Suffering for sure does seem to take place. But to whom?
You answer that question.
What do all the painful emotions mean? Who suffers?

There's a lot of stuff and thoughts coming up about self-realization:

I'm not ready for it yet, I need to reach a 'higher spiritual state' first

common misperception. There is no other or better time than now.

I'm to full of problems and imperfections for this, I can't receive it
It will happen at some point in the future when I'm more 'evolved'

'you' can't receive it, but it can happen.

Since my ego, with its will, brought me here because it willed to no longer suffer, what will happen if the will and the I, who didn't want to suffer anymore, fall away?

they are seen through but not destroyed. don't worry, there will still be a will/ego.
Haven't met anyone yet that doesn't has some sense of self left.
But things just don't seem to stick to it like they used to.

Keep on lookin Josh.
Just continue the inquiry you're on.

You've seen how an 'I' is put together with thoughts.
Can you explain/tell me how your "I" has been put together?
What is its construct?
Write all you need to.

[andersonx]

Suffering seems to take place to "me". There's strong identification with suffering here. I can't seem to separate perceiving suffering, and suffering.

Can you explain/tell me how your "I" has been put together?
What is its construct?

My "I" mainly comes from the fact that I seem to be a particular point of consciousness, in space and time, in a human body. Because the consciousness has a location, I consider this location to be "I".

In "my" location I pick up the information from the senses in the body called Josh.
In "your" location you pick up the information from the senses in the body called Bill.

My belief in I is centred around this seeming location of consciousness. What am I? I don't know Bill, I'm not really sure. But it seems like this location of consciousness is the closest I'll ever be to finding an I.

[andersonx]

this is really starting to help me Bill. I read these quoted words from the Buddha on the LU website articles: "Then, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized."

Suddenly in a flash there was a realization of the no-self, and much chuckling at myself, since my suffering about this has been very heavy for the past few days. But I'm not sure if this realization is pervasive or final. It seemed to slip away in the minutes after it was seen.

[Bill]

Josh - I'm glad your depression is lifting. That's a good sign.

One of our other guides could not stop laughing once she SAW exactly how the mind was CREATING the story ABOUT life, while life was just doing its thing. She could not stop laughing for days after this.
It is that simple. We try and complicate it and we think because our suffering is so great, this must be very difficult.
But it truly is not. It has been right under our nose our whole life... but not seen.

There is no I, there is only whats going on right now. Life, lifeing. How simple.
Look with your two eyes at what is going on right now in front of you. This is it. Reality.

Two things for you Josh,
Take a look at whatever fears are coming up for you as you get further into this inquiry.
Be mindful of any fear coming up.
Know that the fear is there to protect the self, that is its job. But there is no self to protect.
So in a way its useless here.
But it is usually here, so dig deep and find whatever is coming up for you now.
Then try and look behind the fear to see if anything is there.

When I asked you for the construct of your I, I wasn't asking for theory.
Sorry, my miscommunication.
What I'm asking is you Josh, were born many years ago. You had no I to speak of then.
What happened in your life that an I developed (like it does in all of us)
How did it get from back there, to where it is today?
How was it built up over time?

[andersonx]

Hi Bill

I'm not sure about fears, but whenever I approach this, I quickly start to feel defeated. I feel unable to see the truth, and my fear, if anything is that I just won't ever see this, that I'm not ready, that I'll remain stuck.

What I'm asking is you Josh, were born many years ago. You had no I to speak of then.
What happened in your life that an I developed (like it does in all of us)
How did it get from back there, to where it is today?
How was it built up over time?

I'm not sure exactly what you mean, I guess it's just basically a big idea that has built up in my brain. The whole sense of self mainly comes from interacting with others who re-enforce the idea. I answer to the name Josh, so the believe arises that I am Josh.

[Bill]

Hi Bill

I'm not sure about fears, but whenever I approach this, I quickly start to feel defeated. I feel unable to see the truth, and my fear, if anything is that I just won't ever see this, that I'm not ready, that I'll remain stuck.

Hey Josh,

We can't seem to be able to think our way to this.
When we try, we get what you are experiencing above.
We can only really SEE with our eyes and other senses, what is in front of us and try to find this I, that you
keep saying you sense is there. You haven't convinced me yet.

There is no separate entity at all in real life, only thoughts about it. No me that is in control of life managing it and making choices. None as in zero. No self. We can't find it when we look.
No self = no problem.


Could you just go about the rest of your day and LOOK for this I. Can you find it in reality?
Not the sense of self we all feel, but this entity. Is it here Josh in reality.

I notice you seem a bit tired.
If you need to take a day or two off - let me know.

What is the status of your internet? nites, weekends?
I knew you had an issue when we started.
I would also encourage you to read the Gateless Gatecrasher
book by Ilona in the book section as you have time.
Its excellent.

[andersonx]

Hi Bill,

I've now got internet at home, so am good to go. Yes, I think I need to pace myself a bit, thanks for noticing.

It's now wednesday evening. I think what I need to do is spending a couple of days just looking, inside and outside of meditation.

When I ask myself, is there a self?

There's an annoyed answer that keeps arising: I don't know, how the hell can you know, and what does it matter, even if you knew there wasn't - life goes on as is anyway.

Right now, the idea of a self just seems like a concept to me, an abstract idea. I'm a bit lost about finding out there is no self, as I'm not even sure if there is a self in the first place.

I'm getting stuck and confused here.

[Bill]

Hi Bill,

I've now got internet at home, so am good to go. Yes, I think I need to pace myself a bit, thanks for noticing.

It's now wednesday evening. I think what I need to do is spending a couple of days just looking, inside and outside of meditation.

When I ask myself, is there a self?

There's an annoyed answer that keeps arising: I don't know, how the hell can you know, and what does it matter, even if you knew there wasn't - life goes on as is anyway.

Right now, the idea of a self just seems like a concept to me, an abstract idea. I'm a bit lost about finding out there is no self, as I'm not even sure if there is a self in the first place.

I'm getting stuck and confused here.

Hello Josh

Feeling stuck is not wrong.
It can be the catalyst you're looking for.
There's no rush on this.
And yes, life happens always as it does, whatever we believe or not.

Go ahead and take a few days if you need.
I wil be here when you're ready.

If you could just keep the inquiry up about the I.
Is there an "I" in reality.
Is it really there?
Is it?

And read the book I mentioned.

Can you do that?

Bill

[andersonx]

Hi Bill. I'm back.

The inquiry was going on continually in the background whilst I was away. And I was looking for the I. I was lying in bed last night, as I couldn't sleep, and all this was running through my mind.

Then suddenly there was a moment of clarity. There are just feelings, thoughts, perceptions - then I am comes along and attaches itself to these things, and it becomes I am thinking, I am feeling, I am perceiving. But really "I" is just a thought. When you look hard, there is no I who is doing the thinking, feeling etc.

The truth is as simple as dropping the I am thought. It's when we start believing our thoughts that we get caught up.

This was all quite clear at the time.

But this morning, I had to try hard to remember this insight, I'm not sure that its changed anything.

[Bill]

Hey Josh - I'm glad you're back.
I thought you were getting really close last week.

Then suddenly there was a moment of clarity. There are just feelings, thoughts, perceptions - then I am comes along and attaches itself to these things, and it becomes I am thinking, I am feeling, I am perceiving. But really "I" is just a thought. When you look hard, there is no I who is doing the thinking, feeling etc.

The truth is as simple as dropping the I am thought. It's when we start believing our thoughts that we get caught up.

Josh - this does look like you've seen.
This is what we're all about here. Seeing that the I, is truly an illusion.
And can't be found in reality.
Yes, the I latches on and claims all for itself. Then starts to spin a story.
A story that is almost impenetrable. But it can be seen through for what it is.
I like what you say about the "I am" thought. That is so tricky for all those who meditate
It has kept many stuck for a long time.
There is am, but no I; might be a better way to say it.

This was all quite clear at the time.
But this morning, I had to try hard to remember this insight, I'm not sure that its changed anything.

Can you tell me, is this just an understanding or have you actually seen this?
It really can't be forgotten if its been seen, although that exact moment of clarity might not be as bright.
Nothing does change. Only our perspective.

Josh can you answer this:

Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

[andersonx]

Hi Bill,

The insight has recurred with a certain clarity again today.

In meditation today, I asked myself: Who is perceiving this? The question is unanswerable, because it contains a false inference: that a perception must have a perceiver, and that the two are separate, subject and object.

This is where the I creeps in. The I imagines it is the perceiver. But we cannot locate this "I" anywhere, because it is just a thought.

So essentially we realize: there is no separate perceiver, only perception itself. The illusion of separation between perception and perceiver is only an idea in the mind. Therefore, there is no me.

The clarity of this insight wavers to tell you the truth, sometimes, for example in meditation, it's clear - then at other times I find it hard to grasp. I feel that I've seen it, but yet to live it or embody it. I also still have more questions.

[andersonx]

I feel this more than an understanding, but less than a realization. and I'm still uncertain.