Lingering Doubts

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Artst
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Re: Lingering Doubts

Postby Artst » Sat Apr 07, 2018 5:53 am

Hi, Zechs,

Glad it's fun!
When I hear a thought, I can't point to the source of that sound.
Good, but do you actually hear a thought?
The idea of there being a place inside my head where thoughts and images appear is based on these kinds of illusions coming up and being taken for fact. It is imagined.
Nothing controlled the production of that story.
Exactly!
Nothing controls thought. Whether a thought arises or not is like whether a pebble dropped from a plane lands on the ground with less than a thud, or falls into a pond, producing a splash and subsequent ripples. Whatever control one feels like they have over when they drop the pebble has essentially zero effect on where it's going to land exactly.
Nice.

If you look for the I, what is there? Can you describe what you find?

Sending love,

Robyn
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Re: Lingering Doubts

Postby Zechs » Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:45 pm

Hi Robyn,
Good, but do you actually hear a thought?
This is a bit confusing. If you mean, "When a thought comes up, is it heard?", then my answer is yes. When a song starts playing in my head, which I mean in the colloquial sense that at that moment there's nothing outside the body like a set of speakers actually making the music happen, the mental sensation of there being music playing is definitely heard. With discursive thoughts, the sound is like a voice speaking, without anyone being there who could be pointed to as the person or entity actually speaking the words making up any particular thought.

On the other hand, if you mean, "Do you, as some sort of perceiver, hear a thought?", then -
If you look for the I, what is there? Can you describe what you find?
When I look for the I, I don't know where to look. I know that the sense of there being a place inside my head where thoughts and images appear - where I originally thought to look in order to find the I - is imaginary, being based as it is on various illusions. However, my habit when thinking about the "I" is for my attention to tune out to external sensations in order to attend better to whatever is supposed to come up from within that imaginary space. I tried tuning out in that way and then asking myself, "Is there an 'I' here?" and got this weird, uncomfortable, anxious sensation in my chest. I find that I don't understand the question, but feel as if I'm supposed to know the answer. It used to be that whatever came up when I tuned out, inasmuch as it seemed to appear in that place, confirmed that that was indeed "me". Now there isn't any place that makes sense to call "I". I find I'm spontaneously looking around the room like I expect to find something or someone looking past my shoulder at the computer, as if to check in with them that they can see what I'm seeing. Of course, there's nobody there.

With love,

Zechs

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Re: Lingering Doubts

Postby Artst » Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:03 am

HI, Zechs,
When a thought comes up, is it heard?", then my answer is yes.

Ok. Here's an exercise to distinguish imagining from direct experience.

Close your eyes, relax and take a few breaths. Call up an imagining, one that includes some kind of sensory experience, like being on the beach or on a mountain. It can include smells, sounds, body sensations, like the sun on your skin. Once you've done this and it's quite vivid, open your eyes and look around where you are. Notice body sensations, sounds, smells, etc. Does the imagined experience use the senses as the experience of the physical world does?

"Is there an 'I' here?" and got this weird, uncomfortable, anxious sensation in my chest. I
Sounds to me like fear has come up. This is not at all unusual. The discovery of no 'I' can be very disturbing at first.
Now there isn't any place that makes sense to call "I".
Yep. Perhaps it doesn't exist?

Hang in there, Peter. Once you get to the other side of the fear and resistance, it's very lovely.

Sending love,

Robyn
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Re: Lingering Doubts

Postby Zechs » Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:21 pm

Hi Robyn,
Does the imagined experience use the senses as the experience of the physical world does?
No. When I imagined sitting beside a mountain stream, the visual experiences of the water in front of me and the trees on the other side of the shore did not correspond to actually existing water and trees. Light from the real sun was not being reflected off these imaginary objects and reaching my eyes in order to produce the mental image I was seeing. Pebbles and grains of sand weren't actually rubbing against my palm to produce the tactile sensations when I imagined I was pressing my hand into the ground beside me. Although I saw and felt these things, those were imaginary experiences, whereas the visual experience of my laptop screen and the tactile sensations of the keyboard against my wrists and fingertips are real ones.
Sounds to me like fear has come up. This is not at all unusual. The discovery of no 'I' can be very disturbing at first.
Okay.
Yep. Perhaps it doesn't exist?
Well then, the feeling that comes up makes me want to say, "So what?" After all, if that's true, then nothing really changes about the world now, does it? It's like I believed in God my whole life and then finally put it together that he doesn't exist. If anything, my whole reason for being alive is gone now. I can see how there's freedom in that. Not having a reason to live for also means not having to live for a reason. It doesn't feel good though. I actually feel really sad. At the same time, I feel angry and upset with myself, like it's stupid of me to be sad about something that doesn't even exist. I wasn't sad when I figured out Santa Claus wasn't real, but I also never believed that Santa Claus was living somewhere behind my eyes. I don't know whether to smile and laugh or fall to pieces crying. This really doesn't feel like a good thing. Everything's fine, but also pointless. The thought of having to interact with someone who believes in their self - it feels insufferable. But why is that, if there's no one who suffers? I feel confused, despondent, apathetic. Giving up would be just as pointless; I've tried to get back the world I used to know and it just doesn't work like that. I can't see any further than this moment and even that doesn't feel like enough. It's starting to be funny again, even though I don't feel like I have any right to laugh at all this. Life is pointless and absurd and that's all there is, but what's so stupid and ridiculous about it is how much it hurts in spite of that fact whenever I want or wish for anything more than what's here right now. Looking at these words, I don't recognize myself in them. A moment ago they were all completely true and now that they're no longer being written it's like who or whatever it was that was writing them is gone. Was there even a writer to begin with? A thought comes up without anyone having to think it. The hands move by themselves. There's an internal logic to things, but it's not that of a will or reason corresponding to the intent of a creator. It's more like a pattern of energy build up and discharge. The breath rises and falls. There's a quickening in the chest, an excitement and the feeling like I'm approaching something. The music builds and rises. Is there such a thing as movement? Isn't it all just lights flickering inside stillness? I want to figure this out feels like I want the mystery to be solved; I want the light to go out that said I was here. What am I even doing right now? Will anybody think about me after I'm dead? I feel like I should apologize to you for having gone so far off track but what sense is there to there being something like a track if there's no place for me, nowhere from which I could enter into or get on board? Maybe this music I'm listening to is making me feel things that aren't real. A bird doesn't think to itself, "I'm engaging in an adaptive strategy in order to maximize reproductive success," it just sings. Whatever a biologist reads into its activity is neither the first nor the last word on its meaning. There is no last word about what anything is or means. I don't think I'm trying to do anything, particularly in order to gain something for myself, but maybe that's unfair to you or anyone else who decides to read this, for me to take up your time when I don't even know what the reason is for why these words are being released from within me. Without being serious about either option, I want to go for a walk in the sun or die. Everything is terribly alright.

Robyn, I feel like I would be worried about anyone who sent a message like this to me but I want you to know that really I'm completely okay. There's a sense of processing that I get from writing where I feel like I can become safely unhinged for a few moments before going back to normal once more. I definitely didn't expect my thoughts would turn to things like death, so I don't want you to worry as though I was seriously considering anything before this point or that I might be taking such thoughts seriously now that they've come up.
Hang in there, Peter. Once you get to the other side of the fear and resistance, it's very lovely.
It's still hard to see this. I feel like I know what you mean when I get out there and do things, but when I'm just walking or sitting on my own without anything to do it's difficult to feel totally peaceful and okay.

With love,

Zechs

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Re: Lingering Doubts

Postby Artst » Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:59 pm

Dear Zechs,

Thank you for your message. It's very good that you shared the thoughts and emotions that have been arising. I got all of it and although it may not feel like it right now, it's all fine. I'm glad you know that you're okay.

I don't have much time right now, but I will get back to you later, probably late tonight.

My guide at LU once wrote, paraphrasing, "There are three kinds of thoughts -- those that are useful (e.g. remember to take out the garbage and 2+2=4), those that are entertaining and those to regard like refrigerator noise." ;-)

Everything you shared were thoughts and emotions. When people around me doubt or forget that thoughts and emotions are automatic, not controlled by an I, I ask them this: If you could control thoughts and emotions, are these the thoughts you'd be having?

It's great that you noticed that the thoughts and feelings kept shifting.

Feel free to write more before I get back to you.

Sending love,

Robyn
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Re: Lingering Doubts

Postby Zechs » Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:08 am

Hey Robyn,

I've been unexpectedly busy today and won't be able to post tonight.

<3 !

Zechs

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Re: Lingering Doubts

Postby Artst » Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:25 am

HI, Zechs,

Thank you for letting me know. I wanted to write more to you in response to your last message anyway.
Although I saw and felt these things, those were imaginary experiences, whereas the visual experience of my laptop screen and the tactile sensations of the keyboard against my wrists and fingertips are real ones.
Well done.
A bird doesn't think to itself, "I'm engaging in an adaptive strategy in order to maximize reproductive success," it just sings.
Yes. Perhaps we just sing, as well.
There is no last word about what anything is or means.
And never was. We can relax.
Everything is terribly alright.
I'm glad. This is beautifully poetic, Zechs.
it's difficult to feel totally peaceful and okay
I get that. How are you now?

Thoughts and emotions just happen.

Sending love, Zechs,

Robyn
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Re: Lingering Doubts

Postby Zechs » Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:34 am

Dear Robyn,
If you could control thoughts and emotions, are these the thoughts you'd be having?
Haha, yeah right!
How are you now?
I'm okay, although I'm a bit burnt out. My sister was here to visit twice for multiple days in a row these past couple weeks and I spent the entire day with her yesterday, which is the most time I've spent with someone, talking and being with them, in years. It was good, but it was far more social interaction than I'm used to. My mind's still kind of crowded with the recent impressions my family's made upon me. I'm looking forward to feeling like I'm by myself again.

Rereading some of what I wrote on Sunday, the feeling I get is one of expectancy. There's supposed to be a moment when I finally get it, at which point something is meant to happen that changes everything. There's nowhere in direct experience in which the I can be found. There are just sounds, images, bodily sensations, tastes, smells, thoughts and feelings. The sense of there being a subject inside the forehead looking out from behind the eyes is based on an illusion. The mind has tricked itself into believing that a bodily sensation belongs to or is it, without any reason for doing so. It's like the illusion where a person is made to feel as though a rubber hand placed out in front of them belongs to or is their actual arm. The illusion isn't a sign of something faulty with our brains, it just happens because that's an aspect of how the mind works. Everything's already doing what it needs to and being how it is without having to check in with "me" to see that everything is going according to plan. It's not just that life is constantly going off book: there isn't a book to begin with. There is no such thing as a life script. The script is a story the mind has built for itself out of various thoughts and feelings in order to construct the semblance of a narrative centred around the imaginary existence of a character called Zechs. It doesn't reflect the reality of who or what the living being who goes by the name Zechs actually is. I am; the living being is real, but who I think I am is not. The content of thoughts having to do with the thought of me does not refer to something real that can be found in direct experience. Thoughts come and go without ever pausing to attach themselves to things and get stuck there as permanent labels upon the constantly changing feelings and sensations that arise as experience. Nothing is happening that needs "me" to make it happen, or to which my attention needs to apply itself in order for my existence to become more stable. My body and mind are perfectly capable of becoming more or less grounded all on their own. Nothing special is going to happen, no new thought or feeling is going to appear that makes this real, because reality already is. The only life I can miss out on is the one that's happening right here and now, and even that can't be lost because nothing comes up in experience that is not it. This is it. This is real. This is me. This is the thought "me" that was here and gone away. I'm here. I'm real. I am.

But am I here? Am I real? Is that not just the delusion reappearing alongside the thoughts that are supposed to symbolize or represent the delusion having been seen all the way through? What's behind that - what's behind the feeling in between my eyes - what's in 'there'? Nothing. It's just a feeling. There isn't some room where the I lives, nor is there an empty room where it isn't. The bodily sensation of the inside of the skull is not special compared to the sensation of any other part of the body felt from within. The meaning of sensations is fluid, contextual, indeterminate. Two people sitting side by side on a roller coaster could give the same ECG results and still one of them could report having been completely thrilled the entire time while the other said they were terrified. I'm anxious right now, does that mean this is a bad experience? When that anxiety goes, will that mean experience is good again?

Perhaps the "I" does not exist. I focus on the sensations at the forehead and repeat the thoughts "me" and "I", over and over again. They pass through those sensations like waves through a dense foam. The sense of self is not fixed. It can become dislodged from its apparent centre, shift and be pushed askew. The anxiety feels like a desire for something that can be called "mine". It craves fixity, certainty, knowledge, reason, an explanation that justifies why it's there. It's drunk on its own dilemma. If something brings it pleasure, it wants to cement that procedure, make it reproducible and own its product. If something threatens it, or is harmful or unpleasant, it wants to explain that, make sense of it with a reason sufficient for assuaging its fear and coddling its pain. Ideally, however, it wants to destroy it, make it permanently go away. When it can't do that, it becomes resentful, cold, disconsolate. It tries to turn itself away from the source of unpleasantness as much as it's able. It's afraid to face its own unreality. The sensation is real, but "anxiety" is just a label. You said we can relax, Robyn, is that true? Earlier, I tried asking myself, "What kind of thoughts would you want to be having?" and nothing came up. It was clear to me what I'd want my thoughts to be like, how I'd want them to make me feel, but I couldn't actually make a thought appear that was that. The best I can do now is think of the kind of experiences I enjoy having and reproduce snippets from those moments, like choosing to rewatch episodes of TV shows that I know I liked with the feeling that it's likely I'll have a similar reaction as when I first saw them way back. But what actually entertains me more than anything is being surprised by thoughts; the most satisfying part of watching familiar programs is discovering things I hadn't noticed before, finding novel interpretations and developing new relationships with characters I formerly disliked as their reactions begin to reveal deeper levels of emotional complexity in their lives, thus giving me greater insight into my own. But does that mean I can feel good about what already feels like it's bad? I want some kind of authority to confirm or legitimate what I think is right but which doesn't feel like it is. That was the function the "I" was meant to fulfill, but in its absence what I think makes me feel like I'm standing on top of a building whose foundation is crumbling, and both I and it are moments away from total collapse. Ahaha, and then it's written, the energy that made up whatever thought just occurred passed through the resistance that was inhibiting its release and now that it's gone the truth value of that thought is gone with it. That happened on Sunday too. It's like the emotional and psychological equivalent of wringing out a towel - what your guide called refrigerator noise.

I read what I'd written here so far and I think I spotted something. The energy that I've been calling anxiety keeps getting expressed over and over again as doubt about what's known. The expectation is that, if the truth is known, then the sensations associated with the feeling of doubt should no longer occur. I'm supposed to know something, be in possession of a certain fact, that will make it so that those sensations will immediately resolve themselves without difficulty. When this doesn't happen, there's a feeling like something goes offline, I tune out to the world and the refrigerator starts humming again. There are alternatives to the expression of these sensations in the form of an experience of a moment of doubt and uncertainty seeking to be assuaged by an external authority or conceptual resolution. For example, I can move my body and find new ways of being at ease with the feelings that are occurring then and there. At the same time, that's alright that that's the way it's happened to play out most often for me. I can honestly say I didn't know any better, because each time I've gone through this brain swamp I've felt like the problem I was troubling myself with was of the utmost importance. After all, its resolution represented total freedom from anxiety, negativity and harm for the rest of my life. Now there's room for something more fun than never-ending melancholic obsession and neurasthenic soliloquy. It occurs to me that even those could be enjoyable, occurring as they do for their own sake without having to be perceived as a means through which "I" will attain some sort of permanent relief. There's something natural to it, even to those moments of uncanny feelings that come up as I risk the thought that somehow anything could be or remain natural after this moment. But then, there's no need to somehow tense my being into forcing the next moment to come up in line with my hopes or expectations. I don't know if this will last, but I feel like I can appreciate, even love, something painful, such as anxiety. It's a new feeling after all, unique to this moment, and I enjoy novelty. Not altogether what I was expecting to find, but now that I have, it's nice.

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Re: Lingering Doubts

Postby Zechs » Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:35 am

<3

<3

<3

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Re: Lingering Doubts

Postby Artst » Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:36 am

Hi, Zechs,
It's like the illusion where a person is made to feel as though a rubber hand placed out in front of them belongs to or is their actual arm.
That's a great analogy!
the semblance of a narrative centred around the imaginary existence of a character called Zechs.
This reminds me of how Jim Carrey says he saw through the illusion of I; it was due to his assuming other identities in his acting career and realizing they were all just characters, including the one called Jim Carrey. ;-)
The expectation is that, if the truth is known, then the sensations associated with the feeling of doubt should no longer occur.
The unveiling of the expectation -- well done!

Here's an exercise for you: Sit quietly and take a few deep breaths. With you eyes closed, slowly lift and lower your arm 25 times and as you do so, focus on observing whether there is any evidence that someone (like I) is causing the arm to lift. Let me know wha you find, ok?

Sending love! <3

Robyn
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Re: Lingering Doubts

Postby Zechs » Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:11 am

Hey Robyn,
That's a great analogy!
:D If you haven't seen a video of the experiment being conducted, you should, the results are seriously striking. Searching "rubber hand experiment" or "body transfer illusion" should bring something up for you.
This reminds me of how Jim Carrey says he saw through the illusion of I; it was due to his assuming other identities in his acting career and realizing they were all just characters, including the one called Jim Carrey. ;-)
Yeah! I remember him talking about that in Jim & Andy.

By the way, although I never said as much before, I mean for "Zechs" to represent my actual name. It's not a personal nickname or anything; it's the pseudonym of a character - pictured in my avatar - from an old favourite show of mine that I was rewatching at the time I was invited to make an account here. The character's use of a mask and alternate identity seemed apropos to what we're trying to unmask here about the self, which is what inspired me to make Zechs my username.
Here's an exercise for you: Sit quietly and take a few deep breaths. With you eyes closed, slowly lift and lower your arm 25 times and as you do so, focus on observing whether there is any evidence that someone (like I) is causing the arm to lift. Let me know wha you find, ok?
I did the exercise a few times and took notes but haven't gotten around to writing them up in full just yet. I'll make a post about those observations tomorrow.

:) <3

Zechs

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Re: Lingering Doubts

Postby Artst » Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:11 am

Hi, Zechs,

Yes, I've seen videos of the experiment. So interesting!

Got it about your username.
I did the exercise a few times and took notes but haven't gotten around to writing them up in full just yet. I'll make a post about those observations tomorrow.
Probably don't need extensive notes about this; point is, what did you discover about what (if anything) controls the lifting and lowering of the arm?

Zechs, all the writing about all the thoughts going on...do you find an I generating them or are they justing happening?

Sending love,

Robyn
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Re: Lingering Doubts

Postby Zechs » Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:35 pm

Hey Robyn,
Probably don't need extensive notes about this; point is, what did you discover about what (if anything) controls the lifting and lowering of the arm?
I can't find such a thing. It just seems to happen. Sometimes it feels like there's a willing or intention that occurs which moves it, but it's just a bodily sensation in between the eyebrows, or a thought or image about the arm moving. It certainly wasn't necessary for the will or thought to be there first in order for the arm to start moving or continue to move. My arms can move without anyone or anything telling them to do so; if I never again had a thought with the content, "Move your arm," or anyone else tell me as much, my arm would still be able to move like normal.
Zechs, all the writing about all the thoughts going on...do you find an I generating them or are they justing happening?
They're just happening. When I notice them happening, there's a feeling of self-consciousness and inhibition that can come up which creates uncertainty and a feeling of anxiety about what could or should be happening instead of this, but I don't make that noticing or those feelings occur any more than I cause a single thought to arise.

<3

Zechs

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Re: Lingering Doubts

Postby Zechs » Thu Apr 12, 2018 11:06 pm

P.S. Ahaha, I just got your username too: there's no "I" in Artst. Nice.

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Re: Lingering Doubts

Postby Artst » Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:13 am

Hi, Zechs,
I can't find such a thing. It just seems to happen.
Good!
When I notice them happening,
Is there an I noticing them happening, like a separate observer or just the experience of their happening?
there's a feeling of self-consciousness and inhibition
Zechs, feelings (emotions) are very simple. Sadness, anger, joy, fear... Please look again and see what is self-consciousness in Direct Experience?
that can come up which creates uncertainty and a feeling of anxiety about what could or should be happening instead of this,
Really? Feelings create this? Or are they thoughts? What is this story made of?

Are thoughts I?

You're doing great, Zechs!

Sending love,

Robyn

p.s Cool that you noticed Artst
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