Selfless Living?

[emptyself]

Please do this:

Raise one of your arms.

Which one describes reality more precisely?

1. Consciousness rose the arm.
2. The arm rose.


Choose one from the two.

Please just write the number, and nothing else.

1

[emptyself]

Contemplate may have been the wrong word.

I sat for two hours and simply observed. What I wrote was what I observed - not based on thinking - based on noticing.

[Bananafish]

Thanks emptyself!


Can you raise your arm again and observe the process through which
consciousness rises the arm?

How is it known that consciousness rises the arm?


Do the same thing throughout the whole day with
talking, eating, sleeping, or walking.


During the meals, observe.

When you eat something, is it consciousness that is eating the food?
Can consciousness chew, swallow or digest food?

[Bananafish]

Oh, and a typo in my previous post ... sorry.

1. Consciousness rose the arm.

It was meant to be "Consciousness raised the arm."

[emptyself]

Hi Bananafish.

Progress made I think.

Can you raise your arm again and observe the process through which
consciousness rises the arm?

How is it known that consciousness rises the arm?


Do the same thing throughout the whole day with
talking, eating, sleeping, or walking.


During the meals, observe.

When you eat something, is it consciousness that is eating the food?
Can consciousness chew, swallow or digest food?

I followed these instructions and asked these questions all day. The result, late in the afternoon was it became obvious that there is no separate consciousness observing or doing these things.

All sense or concept of a separate consciousnesses disappeared and only the experience of whatever was happening remained (in HD ), alongside an internal dialogue and thinking.

So, no consciousness can not do any of the things you mention, because there is no separate consciousness to whatever is happening. These things just are.

So I suddenly understood why you are suggesting that "things just happen". Previously, reading the book, the app etc, this statement really did not sit with me. It still doesn't! But the experience as a result of the guidance suggested it was so.

HOWEVER, what is now prominent is thought and inner dialogue - as if it has been turned up. This now appears to be the self, although at times I see the absurdity of thought having a real existence as a self - nevertheless, on a level that is how it seems.

My experience as I type is that tying is just happening, because I can not find a separate self or consciousness that is doing it - it just seems like a seemless experience. I do not even want to use words like non dual because that would still suggest some idea of subject and object - there just is the experience of typing. But thought is suggesting that it initiates the process through intention.

[Bananafish]

Wow, what a breakthrough, emptyself!

Kudos to your sincere observation, and now we'll proceed further. :)


Let's have a closer look at thoughts.

First, tell me more about how thoughts make you think they are the self.
Observe when you actually feel so, and please report.

[emptyself]

First, tell me more about how thoughts make you think they are the self.
Observe when you actually feel so, and please report.

In trying to answer the question, I have observed thoughts and they are clearly not the self either. Thoughts are no different to sights, sounds etc. They too, just happen - I can not find a self having thoughts.

But still I am left with a sense of self - which I can not locate. That sense of self would appear to be centered around an idea of "me" "my life", "my goals" etc. Of course, I am well aware that this contradicts what are just wrote above because it would mean that the sense of self is just an idea. As I look at it there is just an idea - thoughts - images that are just happening. But it still feels like there is a self. I still feel as if my choices and decisions are important - how else does one take responsibility for one's life?

Is this a wrong expectation. Am I expecting the sense of self to disappear? Does the illusion continue without being believed in?

[Bananafish]

Thanks empty self for your honesty.

Can you tell me if what you call "sense of self" a problem?

Whatever sense it may be, It's a sense, isn't it? Of course, there are subtle senses
that can't be easily described. But is that sense itself a problem? Can a sense itself cause any
trouble?

It surely becomes a problem when the sense is named as "sense of self,"
and the word "self" is hold onto. That word itself is a mere label; an idea, as you said.


But what is it that holds onto a mere label?
Or is it just that another thought is describing it as a problem?


Here's one exercise for you. Peel of that label "sense of self" and
give it a fresh, brand new label. Feel that sense without naming it, and then,
give it a label. What would the new label be?

[emptyself]

Hi Bananafish

Apologies - a long day of work yesterday - I didn't get to post.

But the investigation was most interesting:

But what is it that holds onto a mere label?
Or is it just that another thought is describing it as a problem?

Yes - it would seem to be just another thought - actually a story

Here's one exercise for you. Peel of that label "sense of self" and
give it a fresh, brand new label. Feel that sense without naming it, and then,
give it a label. What would the new label be?

I gave it the name " the actor " and this has been quite useful. It kind of makes watching the sense of self like watching a movie - you get drawn into it but keep remembering it isn't real.

So for much of yesterday I was alternating between seeing the self merely as "thought" and therefore not truly existing, and then get pulled back into that sense of self and going through this labeling exercise. I was wondering, " is this it or has the penny not really dropped - if this is it, the insight is rather underwhelming?"

Then at some stage, there was a sudden profound flash of insight - like a sudden slap in the face. Suddenly it was seen that the self I am relating to really has no true existence - it is just made up of thoughts and stories etc - it only exists as thoughts which have absolutely no ability to form a true self - it was seen that the self is nothing more than an idea. In that moment, and very briefly, ALL sense of self disappeared and all that continued were sights, sounds, senses, thoughts etc, but with no one there in any kind of way to experience them.

This was profoundly shocking and liberating at the same time, though in retrospect, I am not sure who had that experience given that no one was there. It also felt a little comical given that I have spent the last 30 + years trying to become enlightened and it turns out that there is no one there who could possibly become enlightened.

So, this flash of insight was literally like waking up from a dream. But it did not last!

I started to dream again, and I watched the sense of self regroup again, and doubt started to creep back in ( things like, that must have been a trick of the mind, it can't be that easy)

Today, it feels more like I am still dreaming, but I am kind of suspecting that it must be a dream. The self is doing its thing - I am labeling it as the actor again and keep seeing that it is just "in the mind" and kind of have this incredulous feeling. Other than that, life just seems to go on.

Having had the flash of insight, compared to what is happening now, I know I am not quite there. From the insight flash I know it is possible to have absolute clarity - and I do not have absolute clarity - though there is a lot of clarity.

What do you think? (I guess you must have that clarity I talk of, otherwise you would not be able to guide me so precisely)

[Bananafish]

Hi emptyself!


I'm here to help you clarify ALL of your doubts and unclear sight (metaphorically speaking, of course),
so let there be more light that dispels this darkness. :)


So, tell me. What does "absolute clarity" mean for you?

Also, what makes your sight somewhat unclear?

[Bananafish]

Oh, by the way, you're doing a great job!
Keep up the good work. :)

[emptyself]

I'm here to help you clarify ALL of your doubts and unclear sight (metaphorically speaking, of course),
so let there be more light that dispels this darkness. :)

Thank you so much - I appreciate you giving your time freely in this way!

So, tell me. What does "absolute clarity" mean for you?

Because I experienced a flash of insight in which all sense of self disappeared and it was so utterly clear and stupidly obvious that no real self exists, I feel that absolute clarity was experienced. However, I realise that most people continue to have a sense of self whilst at the same time they have seen that it is just being sensed (by nobody). At the moment it feels as if I need to keep on reminding myself. I keep going back into selfing and then have to take a fresh look at what is going on until the obviousness of no self returns. Sometimes that obviousness is sharp and sometimes it is still a little vague - like going back to sleep. So absolute clarity would be to see the obvious clearly as my every day way of seeing, instead of having to back through the exercises, however so briefly.

Also, what makes your sight somewhat unclear?

I think habit (simply going back into the old pattern of selfing), seeking pleasure (pleasure seems to draw me back into a sense of self and I need then to notice that pleasure is just happening without the need for a self), tiredness (this process has cost me sleep!), and a little disbelief that this is so simple.

As I look at the self which is nothing other than a concept made of thought it seems so utterly obvious that it is not real - and yet I have spent more than 30 years seeking truth - so there is a little doubt that wonders if I am deceiving myself. How could I not have noticed something so obvious?

[Bananafish]

Do you remember when you learned how to ride a
bicycle? At first, you couldn't ride it. Then, there a was a moment when you
suddenly succeeded in riding it. Then for the first two or three rides it
might have been a bit awkward. Then, it becomes so natural
that you don't care about how to ride it. You simply ride it, and it's indeed simple!

So, it's like this (did this analogy make sense?).


It is obvious! Yes! So simple, isn't it?

The very effort to see it makes this simplicity difficult to
be seen. It's like going out of your home in search of your home.
The further you go, the further your home is.

And it was OK to make efforts, seek, because it made you
get tired of seeking, right? Made you want to come back to the original place, right?


Now, tell me emptyself.

What is the "I"?

[emptyself]

Now, tell me emptyself.

What is the "I"?

There is no I.

It is just an idea made of thought, imputed on thoughts, stories, images, body, life.

But when you look, there is no self there - life happens fine without it - thought is a superimposed layer on top of life that gives the illusion of an entity we call self that creates endless problems. There is no such entity. None whatsoever. Like waking up from a dream - the dream self was just an appearance but never really existed.

so it seems at least today!

[emptyself]

So, it's like this (did this analogy make sense?).

Yes, I get the analogy. Today I awoke with a little pain from a gym visit.

The first response was to feel that " I was in pain".

It took about a minute of checking again to notice that no such self was there to experience pain. There was just pain.

It even diminished the pain a little.

And as the day went on, greater clarity came about.