Getting to the heart of things

[forgetmenot]

Hey Todd,

Without thought, how would it be known that the colour/shape is red or green and that it is round and is an apple?
Without thought how would it be known that the taste, smell and sound were that of an apple?
Without thought, how would it be known that the sensation (touch) is a round hard object?

It's impossible to know that it is an apple without thought. Apple is a mental construct that doesn't exist in the real world. Same goes for 'round hard object'.

Yes, exactly. Thoughts layer concepts over actual experience. A label/thought is never the actual. Some thoughts point to the actual, and some point to other thoughts, but the content of every single thought is just a story.

If thoughts were expressed via the tweeting of birds or an unknown language, how would you know what they meant? What meaning is given to thoughts are only just thoughts about thoughts.

Sit in a quiet room where noises from outside can be heard. Close your eyes and just listen to the sounds for a few minutes. Really hear them.

Tell me ONE noise that you hear when doing this?

Sound of a car driving by.

Great! Now can you repeat the exercise…

Tell me,
- How is it known there are cars?
- What is it that says there are cars?
- What is the actual experience of ‘hearing car driving by’.

(Remember actual experience = what is actually happening, as opposed to thoughts about it)

Write what you find.

Love, Kay

[NMSeeker]

Kay,

- How is it known there are cars?

It's not known they are cars.

- What is it that says there are cars?

The engine noise elicits an memory of hearing a car engine.

- What is the actual experience of ‘hearing car driving by’.

Listening to the sound coming from outside. Then associating the sound with a car engine. I was able to use previous experiences to match the sound to that of a car engine.

With Love,
Todd

[forgetmenot]

Hello Todd,

- How is it known there are cars?

It's not known they are cars.

Yes, exactly. Without thought how can it possibly be known that the sound are cars? It is only an appearing thought that labels the sound as ‘car’. And thoughts either point to AE or they point to further thought. The face value of thought is AE but the content of thought is just further thought. So thoughts, in and of themselves contain no experience.

- What is it that says there are cars?

The engine noise elicits an memory of hearing a car engine.

Without thought how would it be known that the sound heard is a “engine noise”?

We are looking with AE which is sound, thought, smell, taste, sensation and colour. . Is memory anywhere in AE? What is the AE of ‘memory’? Is memory the AE of thought, sound, smell, taste, sensation or colour?

This exploration is not about thinking, it is about LOOKING at actual experience (AE). Shifting from thinking to noticing can be frustrating and require some practice. Thoughts are the "wrong tool" to do this inquiry. This is about noticing what can be found in your immediate experience, (ie AE) noticing what's going on here now and describing what can be found.

- What is the actual experience of ‘hearing car driving by’.

Listening to the sound coming from outside. Then associating the sound with a car engine. I was able to use previous experiences to match the sound to that of a car engine.

This is a thought answer and no LOOKING is taking place.
I want you to IGNORE all thoughts and mental images that appear about a car and tell me what is the actual experience that is appearing which thought is labelling as a "car driving by"?

Love, Kay

[NMSeeker]

Kay,

Without thought how would it be known that the sound heard is a “engine noise”?

It is not known that the sound heard is engine noise.

We are looking with AE which is sound, thought, smell, taste, sensation and colour. . Is memory anywhere in AE?

No.

What is the AE of ‘memory’? Is memory the AE of thought, sound, smell, taste, sensation or colour?

Actual Experience does not include memory.

I want you to IGNORE all thoughts and mental images that appear about a car and tell me what is the actual experience that is appearing which thought is labelling as a "car driving by"?

It's a sound that starts off quiet, gets louder, then fades away.

With Love,
Todd

[forgetmenot]

Hey Todd,

Without thought how would it be known that the sound heard is a “engine noise”?

It is not known that the sound heard is engine noise.

Yes, exactly.

We are looking with AE which is sound, thought, smell, taste, sensation and colour. . Is memory anywhere in AE?

No.

Great!

What is the AE of ‘memory’? Is memory the AE of thought, sound, smell, taste, sensation or colour?

Actual Experience does not include memory.

No, actual experience does not include memory, however you did not answer the question. Is ‘memory’ the AE of thought,or sound, or smell, or taste, or sensation or colour? In other words what does the label 'memory' point to in actual experience. Is it a thought? Is it sound etc?

I want you to IGNORE all thoughts and mental images that appear about a car and tell me what is the actual experience that is appearing which thought is labelling as a "car driving by"?

It's a sound that starts off quiet, gets louder, then fades away.

Yes, lovely. It is simply the AE of sound, which is known.
Thought then appears labelling the sound as “car driving by”. The thought "car driving by" is AE of thought but is not the AE of car driving by.
Can you see this?

Is actual experience becoming clearer?



What is a rose? Perhaps a nice red and green flower with a pleasant smell and some sharp thorns?

But LOOK again - all that is actually present are colours which thought labels as ‘red’ and ‘green’, a nice smell, which thought labels as ‘rose’ and maybe an 'ouch' sensation that thought labels as ‘thorn prick’. The rose itself is only a story.

Beyond the story, can a rose be found to at all? Is a rose actually known, or only thoughts about a rose a known?


Begin to notice that all things that seem to exist are just like the rose; just fictional stories about experience.

Love, Kay

[NMSeeker]

Kay,

No, actual experience does not include memory, however you did not answer the question. Is ‘memory’ the AE of thought,or sound, or smell, or taste, or sensation or colour? In other words what does the label 'memory' point to in actual experience. Is it a thought? Is it sound etc?

Memory points to a thought. Over time memories (thoughts) can deviate from the Actual Experience they are supposed to represent.

Thought then appears labelling the sound as “car driving by”. The thought "car driving by" is AE of thought but is not the AE of car driving by.
Can you see this?

Yes. Since we don't actually experience the car driving by, it is a thought. We generate this thought of a car driving outside by hearing the sound. This thought of the car driving by is not the actual experience.

Beyond the story, can a rose be found to at all? Is a rose actually known, or only thoughts about a rose a known?

Rose is a thought. The Actual Experience of colors, smell, and feel are known.

With Love,
Todd

[forgetmenot]

Hey Todd,

No, actual experience does not include memory, however you did not answer the question. Is ‘memory’ the AE of thought,or sound, or smell, or taste, or sensation or colour? In other words what does the label 'memory' point to in actual experience. Is it a thought? Is it sound etc?

Memory points to a thought. Over time memories (thoughts) can deviate from the Actual Experience they are supposed to represent.

There is no such thing as ‘memories’. All that ‘memories’ are, are thoughts ABOUT a past that are appearing now. There is no such thing as the past or the future...there is no such thing as time.

See how thought likes to add extra to where extra is not needed and nor is it actual experience. Where in AE can “over time memories (thoughts) can deviate from the Actual Experience they are supposed to represent” be found?

The label ‘memory’ is AE of thought, the ensuing thoughts of what that means is content of thought, and the content of thought is just further thoughts and point to nothing but the AE of thought.
Is this clear?

Thought then appears labelling the sound as “car driving by”. The thought "car driving by" is AE of thought but is not the AE of car driving by.
Can you see this?

Yes. Since we don't actually experience the car driving by, it is a thought. We generate this thought of a car driving outside by hearing the sound. This thought of the car driving by is not the actual experience.

Yes, it is a thought ABOUT the AE of sound.

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell,
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation.
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought.

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go. Tell me what you notice and give some examples please.

Love, Kay

[NMSeeker]

Kay,

See how thought likes to add extra to where extra is not needed and nor is it actual experience. Where in AE can “over time memories (thoughts) can deviate from the Actual Experience they are supposed to represent” be found?

The label ‘memory’ is AE of thought, the ensuing thoughts of what that means is content of thought, and the content of thought is just further thoughts and point to nothing but the AE of thought.
Is this clear?

Yes.

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell,
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation.
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought.

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go. Tell me what you notice and give some examples please.

Looked at the yellow pancake I made. (image/colour)
Smelled the pancakes I ate this morning. (smell)
Touch the pancake and felt their warmth. (sensation)
Tasted the pancakes and enjoyed the taste. (taste)
Listened to the sound of myself eating them. (sound)
Thought about how they tasted, about how good they were. (thought)

With Love,
Todd

[forgetmenot]

Hey Todd,

Lovely work with AE. I hope you enjoyed your pancakes! :) Just keep breaking down daily activities when you can into AE. The more you do it the more clearer it becomes.

Okay, so you know what actual experience is. Let's see the difference between actual experience and the content of thought.

There are two types of thoughts:
(1) Thoughts with words “Here is cup”
(2) Visual mental images of a ‘cup’

So I invite you to do this exercise:
Think of a cup. Get a very clear picture in your mind. See clearly the size, shape, colour and volume of the cup. Notice whether it is decorated or plain. Notice whether it has a handle. Notice whether it is heavy or fragile. Do you have a clear picture in mind?

Now, can you physically grasp that image of a cup?
Can you pour tea into it?
Can you drink from it?

Is there a ‘real’ cup or just an image of a cup?
Is there an appearing mental image?
Is the content of the mental image (the cup) ‘real’?

The thoughts and 'mental' images are real (actual experience) only as arising thoughts and 'mental' images, their ‘presence’ cannot be denied. However their contents, what are they about (like the cup) are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies. Can you see this?

Over the course of the next day or so, I'd like you to notice the content of thoughts. Whenever there is an arising thought or mental image, check whether its content (what it’s about) is REALLY happening, or the content is just pure imagination. Let me know how it goes.

Love, Kay

[NMSeeker]

Kay,

Over the course of the next day or so, I'd like you to notice the content of thoughts. Whenever there is an arising thought or mental image, check whether its content (what it’s about) is REALLY happening, or the content is just pure imagination. Let me know how it goes.

Noticed that there's much less thought or 'voice in the head' going on. The thoughts that do come are almost transparent and not sticky, they don't have much intensity and don't persist. It takes more effort to formulate and keep thoughts around. More time is spent in a state where I'm observing and doing things without thinking about anything in an intentional way.

Last week I wrote about the apple not existing, as I was writing that sentence there was a shift. Realizing the apple didn't exist exposed the illusion on thoughts, self generated stories, and society generated stories we tend to accept as fact.

With Love and Gratitude,
Todd

[forgetmenot]

Hey Todd,

Noticed that there's much less thought or 'voice in the head' going on. The thoughts that do come are almost transparent and not sticky, they don't have much intensity and don't persist. It takes more effort to formulate and keep thoughts around. More time is spent in a state where I'm observing and doing things without thinking about anything in an intentional way.

Great to hear that thoughts are not as sticky, life does get quieter! Just so that you know, we are not looking for different states of mind. These states come and go, but the realisation that there is no separate self, when seen, can never be unseen.

Last week I wrote about the apple not existing, as I was writing that sentence there was a shift. Realizing the apple didn't exist exposed the illusion on thoughts, self generated stories, and society generated stories we tend to accept as fact.

Nice…really nice! We will have a look at the idea of “self generated stories”.

It is important to see the difference between actual experience and the content of thought. When doing the cup exercise, what did you find?


Here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Where are they coming from and going to?

Can you predict your next thought?
Can you push away any thought?
Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to control any thoughts? Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Including the thought 'I'?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Look carefully when doing this exercise and do it several times if necessary. Please answer each question individually.

Love, Kay

[NMSeeker]

Kay,

It is important to see the difference between actual experience and the content of thought. When doing the cup exercise, what did you find?

Think of a cup. Get a very clear picture in your mind. See clearly the size, shape, colour and volume of the cup. Notice whether it is decorated or plain. Notice whether it has a handle. Notice whether it is heavy or fragile. Do you have a clear picture in mind?

Now, can you physically grasp that image of a cup?

No

Can you pour tea into it?

No

Can you drink from it?

No

Is there a ‘real’ cup or just an image of a cup?

Just an image.

Is there an appearing mental image?

Yes

Is the content of the mental image (the cup) ‘real’?

No

Here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

No

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No. I'm not aware of the thought until it comes so making a different thought appear instead seems impossible.

Where are they coming from and going to?

They aren't coming from anywhere that I can determine, they just appear. Same with the thoughts disappearing, they just leave.

Can you predict your next thought?

No. Trying to predict the next thought would be bringing the thought to the forefront, therefore, it would be the current thought.

Can you push away any thought?

Yes

Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

Yes

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

Yes

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

Yes

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Yes

Is it possible to control any thoughts?

Yes

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

Yes

Including the thought 'I'?

Yes, however, 'I' is implied in so many personal thoughts it seems to eliminate 'I' then the thoughts would have to be about something not 'I'. Or just no thoughts would eliminate 'I'.

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence?

They seem to come randomly.

Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Yes, they seem random.

With Love,
Todd

[forgetmenot]

Hi Todd,

So is it the difference between actual experience and content of thought clear?

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No. I'm not aware of the thought until it comes so making a different thought appear instead seems impossible.

Exactly, so then how can you pick and choose any thought or control thought?

Can you predict your next thought?

No. Trying to predict the next thought would be bringing the thought to the forefront, therefore, it would be the current thought.

And how would you go about bringing a thought to the forefront? Where would you have to go to find a thought and where are these thoughts stored exactly? Then please provide step by step details on how you know which thought to choose and then the steps on how to bring it to the forefront to be seen.


I am going to hazard a guess and say that you either didn’t read the instructions on how to do the thought exercise, or you only did it once, or you did not do it at all.

You wrote in your answer to the question about predicting thoughts:- “No. Trying to predict the next thought would be bringing the thought to the forefront, therefore, it would be the current thought” and yet for the rest of the answers, you are saying you are able to predict thought.

If you don't notice the difference between what thought says about reality, and how you find reality to actually be, you won't notice your innate peace and freedom. In order to notice that difference, the very first thing you have to notice is whether, or not, you are the author of thoughts. Or whether ANYTHING is authoring thoughts. The second thing you need to notice is whether thought is aware of what it says, or not. Once you are sure of the answers to those questions, the differences between what thought says about reality, and how you find reality to ACTUALLY be, will reveal themselves.


I would really like for you to do the exercise again... a few times and to LOOK carefully. I don't give exercises just for the heck of it, they all have a purpose. If you aren't willing to LOOK carefully, then there is no much point in my pointing.

Describe in detail, the process by which you create a thought, or make a choice. You have been doing it all your life apparently - so you must know exactly how you do it. So how do you do it? How do you create a thought? How do you think?

Can you push away any thought?

Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is it possible to control any thoughts?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?Including the thought 'I'?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Yes, they seem random.

I am asking you to LOOK carefully so that you can actually see how thought works. SEEMS is hedging your bets. Please look again and tell me what you find when you are looking carefully at thoughts.

Love, Kay

[NMSeeker]

Kay,

Please bear with me, I had a block around this, however, I'm through it. There's a bit of acceptance required with this piece, even if it's seen. There's a tendency to reject the idea that there's no control over thought.

So is it the difference between actual experience and content of thought clear?

Yes. Actual experience is real, that which we can experience through the senses. Content of thought is not real, it's imagination.

Exactly, so then how can you pick and choose any thought or control thought?

Since thought is imagination, trying to choose thoughts or control thoughts would be imagination. Imagination upon imagination!

And how would you go about bringing a thought to the forefront? Where would you have to go to find a thought and where are these thoughts stored exactly? Then please provide step by step details on how you know which thought to choose and then the steps on how to bring it to the forefront to be seen.

Once this was examined carefully there is no step by step details. There's no bringing a thought to the forefront. Thoughts just come.

Describe in detail, the process by which you create a thought, or make a choice. You have been doing it all your life apparently - so you must know exactly how you do it. So how do you do it? How do you create a thought? How do you think?

There's no process for creating a thoughts, they just come.

Can you push away any thought?

An illusion can't push away an illusion, that's just another illusion.

Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

No, that would be an illusion stopping an illusion, that would be another illusion.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

Pleasant thoughts might appear, however, they just happened to come. To attribute those pleasant thoughts to a selection process is an illusion.

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

Painful, negative, or fearful thoughts might not come, however, the idea of choosing not to have them is fantasy.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

No. Thoughts just come, there's no picking and choosing of an illusion by another illusion.

Is it possible to control any thoughts?

No.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?Including the thought 'I'?

No. Since all thoughts are illusions and just appear, they can not be prevented. The thought 'I' is just another thought, so the thought 'I' can not be prevented.

With Love,
Todd

[forgetmenot]

Hello Todd,

What I would like for you to do before responding to my questions, is go back and thoroughly reread everything from the beginning please, and then respond to my post.

Please bear with me, I had a block around this, however, I'm through it. There's a bit of acceptance required with this piece, even if it's seen. There's a tendency to reject the idea that there's no control over thought.

What is it exactly that can reject or accept anything? Is there a choice in what is seen, heard, smelled, tasted, thought or felt? Where is this "me" located exactly?

So is it the difference between actual experience and content of thought clear?

Yes. Actual experience is real, that which we can experience through the senses. Content of thought is not real, it's imagination.

Yes, the content of thought is fantasy, however thoughts are not imaginary. They appear just like colours, smell, taste, sensation and sound. Thoughts are actual experience and they either point to AE or they point to thoughts about thoughts.

The content of thought is simply more thought. Thought, in and of itself does not contain any experience, otherwise you would be able to taste the thought/word ‘sweet’when it appeared.

Exactly, so then how can you pick and choose any thought or control thought?

Since thought is imagination, trying to choose thoughts or control thoughts would be imagination. Imagination upon imagination!

As per my above answer, thought is not imagination. Is there not awareness of thoughts when they appear? Are you not Then how can they be imagination. Thought either points to AE or they point to thoughts about thought ie content of thought. If the content of the thought 'water' was actual water, everytime the thought 'water' appeared you would get wet! The content of the thought 'water' is thoughts ABOUT water.
Can you see this?

Take, for example the thought “I am confused”.
“I am confused” is the thought. The ensuing thoughts of what that means is the content. And those ensuing thoughts are AE of thought, but point to nothing more than thoughts about thought. Can the actual thought 'I am confused' be confused? Can a thought think or be confused?


That is why I gave you the cup exercise. We will give it another go with the following exercise.

If you were in a desert, dying of thirst, could you quench your thirst just by thinking about water (thoughts) or would you need to drink ‘real’ water?

Let’s say I’m with you in the desert and offer you two options:
(1) In my left hand there is a piece of paper with the word ‘water’ written on it, and
(2) in my right hand there is a bottle of water.

Which one would you choose to quench your thirst, the label or the water?

So, can the label ‘water’, which is actual experience (AE) of thought, quench your thirst?

Labels are ‘real’ (actual experience) as appearing thoughts but its ‘content’, what the thought is ABOUT is not ‘real’ and is NOT the AE of ‘content’.
Can you see this?

Love, Kay