Humbly requesting a helping hand

[gondwana]

There was a moment when I was looking at my wife and my parents interact, and it was as if they were under an illusion of having a choice in the action they were preforming, it was as if everything is choreographed but the people in it don't realize it and they think it was there will acting and choosing even though this was not the case, I also played a role in the interaction. It was a fleeting moment but I noticed that for some reason, it was as if I saw in a third person.

Yes! This is a correct observation indeed.

If there really is a “you” in there, controlling everything you do, then you will know exactly how you do things — right?

As you talk out loud, observe from the background. How EXACTLY do you talk? How do you form the mouth shapes, control breath, pitch to form words? How do you do ALL that right before the sounds come out? Describe the process you use.

Take a walk, observe the walking. How do you control all the muscle movements and retain balance and stability? Can you still walk while thinking about other things? Describe the process.

Observe breathing. How do you control the flow rate, the aperture of the entrance to the lungs, the speed, rhythm of the breath? How DO you know exactly how much oxygen is needed for the current task, when to speed up slow down? Describe the process.

Observe thought. How do you decide the next thought which comes up? At which point exactly do you make the decision what to think next? Can you observe it happening in reality? Describe the process.

Is there really a “you” inside there, controlling all of these things, all of the time?
Is there a talker, or just talking?
Is there a walker; or just walking?
Is there a breather; or just breathing?
Is there a thinker; or just thinking?

Is it in fact only thought which tells that you control all these things? And can that thought be trusted?

It feels strange to say I before it all as I get a feeling of hollowness when I think about "I". Does that make sense?

Yes. You are simply observing that “you” do not exist.

In looking and interacting with fear, I feel it like a pressure in my chest. When I observe it and thank it I notice it subsides but also see that there is nothing behind it. I'm not sure what it is protecting, theres nothing behind it.

You just saw the answer then. I rest my case ;-)

[Trancemage]

As you talk out loud, observe from the background. How EXACTLY do you talk? How do you form the mouth shapes, control breath, pitch to form words? How do you do ALL that right before the sounds come out? Describe the process you use.

Talking seems to just happen on its own, I have no control over how it occurs and I have no idea how the body does it all. When I observe while I am speaking there is so many things going on that I haven't had to do anything to cause them to move. Everything occurs with out "my" help and does it perfectly as it intended to do.

Take a walk, observe the walking. How do you control all the muscle movements and retain balance and stability? Can you still walk while thinking about other things? Describe the process.

When walking I don't control any aspect of it. The brain is doing all the calculating without any assistance. It kinda marvelous to observe the complex ballad of things occurring all taken for granted. One thing I notice is that body is moving just before thought, its as if thought is occurring a millionth of second after the action has occurred like reporting on it. Yes I can walk while thinking what I noticed is sometimes I can get lost in thought, but while lost in thought I kept moving to the destination I intended to go to (autopilot sort of).

Observe breathing. How do you control the flow rate, the aperture of the entrance to the lungs, the speed, rhythm of the breath? How DO you know exactly how much oxygen is needed for the current task, when to speed up slow down? Describe the process.

I have no precipitable control on any of those things, my body know exactly want to do in the given situation. If I try to force a particular breathing it instinctively wants to go back to what it was doing if I stop concentrating. I have no idea how much oxygen is needed and when to speed up or down. I also do not know how I don't die in sleep, the body does it all on its own without any help.

Observe thought. How do you decide the next thought which comes up? At which point exactly do you make the decision what to think next? Can you observe it happening in reality? Describe the process.

I cannot decide the next thought it just comes. In observing I don't actually make a decision although it appears like I did, the next thought just comes on its owns although there are times when its almost like I am pretending like I made the next thought come up. I cannot observe it in reality as it is just a thought.

Is there really a “you” inside there, controlling all of these things, all of the time?

I cannot find a "me" in here, I also have no control of anything really... I can only observe it as it happens.

Is there a talker, or just talking?

There is no talker, only talking is happening.

Is there a walker; or just walking?

There is no walker, only the action of walking is occurring.

Is there a breather; or just breathing?

There is no breather. Breathing just happens on its own.

Is there a thinker; or just thinking?

There is no thinker. Only thinking happens.

Is it in fact only thought which tells that you control all these things? And can that thought be trusted?

It is in fact thought which is telling me that I am in control of my actions. But it is not true! All these things "I" do occur without "I"s help. Since that is the case thought cannot be trusted. As it is a false appearance of control.

[gondwana]

Yes I can walk while thinking what I noticed is sometimes I can get lost in thought

Is there anything to get lost in thought?

What tells that there is a getting lost in thought, exactly?

[Trancemage]

Is there anything to get lost in thought?

That was a complete eye opener.... There is nothing that gets lost in thought.

What tells that there is a getting lost in thought, exactly?

Thought is telling thought it is lost in thoughts but, there was no getting lost to begin with as nothing was lost! There is no thougther its just thoughts.

[gondwana]

Thought is telling thought it is lost in thoughts but, there was no getting lost to begin with as nothing was lost! There is no thougther its just thoughts.

“Thoughter”! Haha

And how could thoughts ever get lost in thought? ....

That was a complete eye opener.... There is nothing that gets lost in thought.

Good :)

So the ‘self’ is running out of places to hide....where do you feel ‘you’ are still hanging on at this point?

[Trancemage]

So the ‘self’ is running out of places to hide....where do you feel ‘you’ are still hanging on at this point?

I do not feel the "you" around as strongly in any particular place, but "I" still keep associate with "I" even though I know that its not real at all. "I" still feel it in my stomach but cannot locate it.

On side note, "I" notice my perception is a bit different at times like with what occurred with my parents the other day but it starting to happen more frequently, in different situations. Its like "I'm" not even there but seeing and hearing and all this stuff is just happening.

[gondwana]

Has there ever been a “self”/“ego”/“I” at all, in the past in any shape or form?


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[Trancemage]

Has there ever been a “self”/“ego”/“I” at all, in the past in any shape or form?

There has never been a self/ego/I it has always been an thought/idea.

[gondwana]

Yes :)

Are you able to explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works, from your own experience? Describe it fully, as you see it right now.


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[Trancemage]

Yes :)

Are you able to explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works, from your own experience? Describe it fully, as you see it right now.


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There is no separate self that is the illusion in an of itself. The illusion is we believe we are in control but there is nothing to be in control of. Everything just is. Everything just happens there's no good or bad, it's all labels. "I" expected a bang or a Earth shattering change, but there is none only an understanding of a suttle change in perception, it was always there you always knew.

[gondwana]

"I" expected a bang or a Earth shattering change, but there is none only an understanding of a suttle change in perception

Yes. Expectations of a major revelation can be a tricky beast. What can be true though, is an apparently small thing is actually a much more significant thing, once the false perspective of expectations are seen through and the true meaning appreciated.

There is no separate self that is the illusion in an of itself. The illusion is we believe we are in control but there is nothing to be in control of. Everything just is. Everything just happens there's no good or bad, it's all labels.

How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before this dialogue began?

[Trancemage]

[Yes. Expectations of a major revelation can be a tricky beast. What can be true though, is an apparently small thing is actually a much more significant thing, once the false perspective of expectations are seen through and the true meaning appreciated./quote]
I finally understand what they meant by the greatest cosmic joke, literally laugh out loud.

How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before this dialogue began?

What "I" find most interesting is its kinda like the matrix once you take the red pill there is no coming back, everything is both mundane and amazing at the same time. The largest difference would be how much less anxiety is felt and how it is interpreted. What use to bother "me" really doesn't so much any more. The thoughts are still there but they are more like a fly the buzzes around you, still there but harmless. There is an inherent beauty in whats going on right now, its tough to explain in words. The gateless gate is a funny term for it, its like nothing ever happened but everything changed. Thank you Tim.

[gondwana]

Yes :) I see that you are through. Impossible to explain with words (thought) is exactly right indeed. Now that it is seen, it can never be un-seen.

Ahhh I’m so happy for you! This is the best Christmas present, to read your message today.

Welcome home!


You have already answered the first few final questions, but here are the remaining ones:

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

[Trancemage]

Thanks Tim, glad it was a good Christmas present :)!

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

The last bit was really these questions you had asked:

Is there a talker, or just talking?
Is there a walker; or just walking?
Is there a breather; or just breathing?
Is there a thinker; or just thinking?

They were simmering and eventually lead to the change in perspective.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Life makes everything happen, there is no decision/controlling/intention of anything. Everything is just happening, "I" cannot be responsible for anything as there is no "I" to have responsibility over anything.

6) Anything to add?

I humbly thank you for all your help, and that "I" was able to stumble on to this site.

[gondwana]

Beautiful clarity :)

From here on out, no more difficult questions. Just an enjoyable talk.

You can report how it is going every now and then if you feel like it as things settle in over the next few days.

What further insights are happening?

What changes?
What stays the same?
How does it feel to have no story?
How does it feel to have no name?

(Wow that was almost poetry, haha)

I humbly thank you for all your help, and that "I" was able to stumble on to this site.

You are most welcome Kal :) It is always a pleasure to help someone who looks so earnestly as you have.