The Gate

Can you tell me how (if) a me ever was assumed/felt to be there in the past, and describe the point it changed? What made the 'I' illusion drop away

I do remember feeling that I was my thoughts and being afraid that if thoughts stopped I wouldn’t be there. I also remember in the early years of finding the Dhamma being afraid that following the path might mean erasing myself. And I remember having fear of death being oblivion but somehow “me” being there still experiencing it. Maybe that’s what you were getting at with the “experiencer”? I had this idea that the “experiencer” would still be there but experience would be gone, which was pretty scary. So it seems it was associated strongly with fear for me.

I think those kind of fears dropped away out of experience in meditation. I can remember telling someone about my fears about losing self in around 2006, and noticing that fear of death was gone in 2009, so in between then? The first thing was noticing having no thoughts in meditation, and yet everything was fine. Instead of feeling like I’d lost something, it felt like a relief. And then I spent a while investigating experience and really getting that experience itself could stop. I’m not quite sure how to put it in words. I think the shift happened over a few months, not all in one moment. There were moments that felt significant, but then it seemed to take time to absorb things afterwards.

If you're not 100% sure it has, I can suggest a couple more places a "me" illusion could be hiding out :-)

I don’t feel uncertain myself, but would you mind if we checked it out anyway?

Ermintrude x

If you do not feel a 'me', find the thought of identifying with a sensation "weird" and can say "the search is over" - then it looks like it very likely is.

Oops I was unclear, sorry. “The search is over” wasn’t me saying it, it was me imagining finding self in a sensation and going “Bingo! That’s me!” and how thoroughly weird that would be. If that makes sense. The other two parts are true though.

I don’t feel like the path is over. There’s lots of stuff relating to self still there, like clinging, suffering etc. It’s just that one illusion is gone.

Hi Ermintrude,

Oops, I have only just now spotted this page 2 this evening - and your answers of last night!

Many thanks for explaining so fully how you used to feel thoughts were you and yes, what you said about past fear of being erased or some oblivion does make sense. Many people fear something will be lost - or needs to be taken away. The fact is nothing (that is true) is taken away or lost, only 'something' that was never there in the first place. The only thing to end is an illusion about what is there, added on top of experience. But it can be a very persistent illusion if not tackled head on. So we look carefully for all the places we just assume 'Me' must be, and that is usually 'experiencer' or agent, a thinker of thoughts, a responsible agent or one who directs or controls the whole show called 'Ermintrude' or 'Maria'.

I can relate to what you say about losing fear of death - that's great! - and also how noticing experience - such as thoughts - can be suspended or temporarily stop. From such experiences you can at least loosen an identification with those aspects and/or conclude you cannot, for example be the thoughts.

I'm glad you say you don't feel uncertain about this but would still like to check it out. To be really sure you fully know and see this rather than replaced one certainty /belief in self with another (that self cannot be) let's carry on!

Even if thoughts stop - could this thinker just be having a rest?!

First just sit and ‘ground’/calm a little with the physical senses (any or all - seeing, hearing, touch, smell, taste) as before, then have a look at mental activities as they arise and as they pass  – especially thoughts/images/volitions

 Look: Am ‘I’ thinking ‘my’ thoughts, or are thoughts just arising?
Does anything that arises as thought, image or feeling arise because of a self?


Much love,

Maria

Thank you! I will get back to you tomorrow.

Ermintrude x

> I'm glad you say you don't feel uncertain about this but would still like to check it out. To be really sure you fully know and see this rather than replaced one certainty /belief in self with another (that self cannot be) let's carry on! 

Great! Let's dig it all out :) Run away, illusions!

> Even if thoughts stop - could this thinker just be having a rest?!

Well, something is causing thoughts to arise, since they do arise. And when they stop, there is a sense of rest or relief. But it doesn't feel like 'I' am absent, asleep or anything. So it seems like whatever was creating the thoughts wasn't 'me'.

> First just sit and ‘ground’/calm a little with the physical senses (any or all - seeing, hearing, touch, smell, taste) as before, then have a look at mental activities as they arise and as they pass  – especially thoughts/images/volitions

>  Look: Am ‘I’ thinking ‘my’ thoughts, or are thoughts just arising?

As I sit just looking I notice thoughts or images pop up, either in response to sounds I hear [identifying] or seemingly at random. They seem to be just arising. Then I ask myself (mentally) “Am ‘I’ thinking ‘my’ thoughts?”

This feels a bit different. It's a deliberate thought. (Would you call that a volition + thought?). So am 'I' thinking it? Looking for the 'I': the thought is there; the deliberateness (volition?) is there; then they aren't again. There's nothing seen that is creating thoughts, but thoughts and volitions are arising. There's nothing seen observing thoughts either, but observing is happening.

> Does anything that arises as thought, image or feeling arise because of a self?

Well... it kind of depends on what “self” is.

The things that arise seem to come out of memory, habit, personality, preference and so on. Like, I hear traffic noise and think “car” or “motorbike”. That might trigger some memory about my car. But sometimes I don't know exactly why a particular thing arose at that moment.

You could add up all those things (memory, habit, personality, preference) and call them a self – that is, what makes me different from someone else.

But we're talking about a different sort of self here, right? A kind of idea about 'me' being in the centre of things, not a self meaning an individual having particular memories associated with trees, or liking broccoli.

My left big toe is tingling right now. Is there a “self” or a ”tingler” that is causing it? Is that “tingler” me? Seems a bit of a silly question. Is that different to thoughts?

Hi Ermintrude.

By volitions I did not mean any special type of thought but more direction or energetic movement towards something. There can also be deliberate thought - such as planning a menu or travel itinerary - or random thoughts, but the point was just to observe everything that goes on mentally and see whether it arises because of a self thinking or directing any of it. And yes, by 'self' I did mean some thing, like soul or entity at the centre or within/behind thoughts, experience, habits, actions or choices.

There's nothing seen that is creating thoughts, but thoughts and volitions are arising. There's nothing seen observing thoughts either, but observing is happening.

Great! So it is clear there is no creator of thoughts or an observer.

Look a bit more at thoughts and any images as and when they arise while sitting quietly. Don't bother reflecting or mentally 'chewing' on any question but just use them as pointers to see what is happening in the here and now.

Are thoughts (or some thoughts) special or some types of thoughts more important or powerful than others? Have a look these questions and tell me what is observable in experience:

  Are thoughts an object or are they the subject (the ‘subject’ would be ‘I’)?

Are thoughts aware or are they arisings ‘in’ awareness?

Can a thought think?

Can a thought do anything?

Love, M x

Are thoughts an object or are they the subject (the ‘subject’ would be ‘I’)?

I’m not sure subject/object makes sense here exactly. It feels wrong somehow to label thoughts and awareness as being different and separate so that one is subject and the other object. But thoughts are objects of awareness I suppose if you want to put it that way.

Are thoughts aware or are they arisings ‘in’ awareness?

Thoughts are not aware. They arise in awareness.

Can a thought think?

No

Can a thought do anything?

Arise... pass away...

Apart from that, only indirectly. A thought might influence my actions or mood, but it doesn’t control them.

Hi :-)

Looking good.


Look at how decisions arise in direct experience throughout the day - ‘deciding’ that precise moment of getting out of bed, making a drink - which drink? This cup or that cup? What to eat? Walking - what about direction, or stopping to look at something? When to go on the internet, close the computer? If you're sitting quietly, try to catch it even to the subtlety of when you move, shift or scratch … literally anything.

Is there a ‘me’ deciding, or choosing, in any of this? In direct experience, can you find any such ‘thing’ as a decision or a decider?

A simple little exercise is just to rest your hand on your knee or somewhere and take the part of the supposed ‘agent’ by ‘instructing’ the hand to move. Does the hand necessarily move when ‘you’ tell it to? What does this tell you about the nature of the supposed agent in control?

If you cannot find this, consider that it might be something more like a control room, where control is exerted. Look for this. Is there any place where a controller sits and watches over everything, so everything is done the right way?

Lots of love,
Happy holidays :-)
Maria

Happy holidays :-)

To you too! I may not be able to post much over the next couple of days, but will be back after that.

Ermintrude x

Thanks for letting me know and I hope it's an enjoyable time xx

Look at how decisions arise in direct experience throughout the day - ‘deciding’ that precise moment of getting out of bed, making a drink - which drink? This cup or that cup? What to eat? Walking - what about direction, or stopping to look at something? When to go on the internet, close the computer? If you're sitting quietly, try to catch it even to the subtlety of when you move, shift or scratch … literally anything. 

Is there a ‘me’ deciding, or choosing, in any of this? In direct experience, can you find any such ‘thing’ as a decision or a decider?

There's no “me” doing the deciding. Sometimes I catch an impulse beforehand, or notice that I feel more positively about one cup or the other before I take it, sometimes it just seems to happen without awareness. Sometimes I catch an automatic impulse (say, scratching an itch) before my hand moves and I can choose not to do it. But I can't find a “me” that chooses.

With a bigger decision that might take a few hours or days, I do things like: research the options; imagine the options and see how I feel about them; repeat. At some point I know that the decision is made because I feel really good about one option over the others. So I don't really make the decision, I just know when it is made.

A simple little exercise is just to rest your hand on your knee or somewhere and take the part of the supposed ‘agent’ by ‘instructing’ the hand to move. Does the hand necessarily move when ‘you’ tell it to? What does this tell you about the nature of the supposed agent in control?

I puzzled over this a bit. I can deliberately move my hand of course – that's simple.
Then I got that you wanted me to pretend that thoughts were the agent – is that right? - and deliberately think “Move, hand!”. So that doesn't make the hand move of course. [sorry about repeated use of “I” - language is hard]. But this just kind of shifts the decision problem from “deciding” to move the hand, to “deciding” to think the thought.

Thoughts are clearly not the agent. I can't observe an agent. But I have no trouble doing things – there is agency in that sense. I notice some actions being more deliberate than other, just like with thoughts.

If you cannot find this, consider that it might be something more like a control room, where control is exerted. Look for this. Is there any place where a controller sits and watches over everything, so everything is done the right way?

No, nothing like that. Or at least if there is, it's not in awareness. There's presumably a bit of my brain that takes care of most things (breathe in! Breathe out! Don't fall over! Heart beat!) but I'm not aware of it.

So basically everything is happening just fine, and I - what I? - am neither "in control" nor "out of control".

Ermintrude x

Hi Ermintrude,

Ok there will be preferences going on as you describe (this cup or that cup etc.) and as you also observe well, actions still happen without any agent doing or deciding them.

So are you clear there is no one experiencing, doing, thinking, choosing?

Just look and tell me what the label "I" points to in direct experience?

(Or, another angle if preferred): What, if anything, in all these areas of experience, makes a YOU?

Is there any place you've not looked at yet where an agent/entity could still be hiding out?

What about when not looking and just going about the day?

Much love,

Maria

> So are you clear there is no one experiencing, doing, thinking, choosing?

Yes, or maybe that the whole idea of “someone” doesn’t make sense any more.

> Just look and tell me what the label "I" points to in direct experience?

I still use the word I a lot! It still makes sense to say things like I make a cup of tea, I drink it, I enjoy it etc. But “I” is a useful bit of language, not a real thing you can find. There’s nothing to find in experience.

> (Or, another angle if preferred): What, if anything, in all these areas of experience, makes a YOU?

If it means anything, it means the whole thing added up: the doing, experiencing, thinking, choosing mind and body. There’s nothing separate to be “me”. “I” am everything or nothing - just two ways of looking at the same thing.

> Is there any place you've not looked at yet where an agent/entity could still be hiding out?
> What about when not looking and just going about the day?

For a moment I imagined a shy “self” that hid like a mouse when it was being looked for and popped out when no one was looking! This whole idea is quite strange. How could “I” be hiding from “myself”?

Ermintrude x

Hi Ermintrude,

Yes, the subject pronouns are useful and unavoidable for practical reasons; I was just checking that for you they don't point back to anything more than that: labels or an idea. Seems so! :-)

The comment about someone 'hiding out' was not meant literally - and I get what you mean about the "strange idea" of a self hiding from a self! - , so I'll rephrase the question:

Is it unequivocally clear in everyday lived experience that there is no-one running the show?


How about 'my emotions'? or "my personality"?
sit quietly (e.g. just sit) for a while, eyes closed. Can you find your personality? Is it there? Is it a discoverable ‘thing’ at all?

Much love,
Maria

Is it unequivocally clear in everyday lived experience that there is no-one running the show?

Yes

How about 'my emotions'? or "my personality"?
sit quietly (e.g. just sit) for a while, eyes closed. Can you find your personality? Is it there? Is it a discoverable ‘thing’ at all?

When I sit quietly, there’s not much going on. Not much emotion. There’s a sense of curiosity. No sense of personality when just sitting.

How I notice “personality” in everyday life is that I have habits and preferences that are different from other people’s.

Ermintrude x