Beyond the ceiling

[Canfora]

Dear Eau Vive,

I appreciate the way you take this exploration into your own hands. Looking forward to your next post.

Take care,
C

[Eauvive]

Dear Canfora,

I tried the exercise you suggested and what I experienced was frustration rather than fear, so that's what I went on exploring.

Frustration: that in part I breathe much better and feel much freer when writing down "there is no separate self, etc.", but a little voice says "wait, you're just pretending to get it. It's not an experience, it's just a wish and you will stay stuck in that wish."

There is also the usual objection: if there is no agent, how does it differ from total determinism? How do we still do things and choose paths? Or are we just puppets in the grand scheme of life?

What frustration led to was doubt. Doubt is a very prominent habit here. I could feel it in my body, like a vortex under my sternum. I asked the questions and got this:
Doubt protects me from change.
What needs protection is my hold on things.
What feels threatened is my line of action, my sense of a destination and of a path.

Looking behind doubt I felt the timeline fall off. The timeline is the frame I operate into most of the day, and I often feel like a slave to it. I saw how stretched and stressed I am between past and future, with not much space for now. If that falls off, a great sense of peace settles in. All perceptions seem rich and bright. It is all much more solid and trustworthy than what is built in thought.

I sat within that for a few minutes.

I am leaving your last questions unanswered for now. Will come back.

Take care,

Eau Vive

[Canfora]

Hi Eau Vive!

Reading your post it seems to me that you are still pondering the idea that it is true that the separate self is an illusion and that some fears and expectations are clouding your perception. That's all normal and okay. I look forward to your answers to my last questions.

Take care,
C

[Eauvive]

Dear Canfora,

good morning to you!

In answer to your questions:

What do you think is creating the illusion that you are a separate self at the time being?

Three main observations:
1. The sense of looking out onto the world from a specific point of view. Mostly my eyes looking out.
2. The sensory perceptions always bring me back to this body. I don't feel what other bodies feel. I just feel what comes in contact with mine.
3. The accumulation of knowledge about "my" past story and mental habits as opposed to how little I know about the inner life of others. That knowledge says : I am this, they are that.

Do you still believe you are the body or something inside it?

I don't think that I am the body. But I still think that I experience the material world from it, so somehow I must be something inside it... Not clear what.

Or that you are the thinker of thoughts?

No. I can see thoughts coming up and fading away like a movie on a screen. I don't think I am their thinker.

The witness of what is going on?

There is witnessing. That doesn't necessarily make the witness a solid or fixed entity. It can be quite a fluid and neutral looking which does not belong to a self. But witnessing is happening, yes. My mind is aware of it, even when I sleep. It feels like the one central and constant part of my experience.

The feeler of sensations and emotions?

As for the thinking, I can work backwards from sensations and emotions and see them as phenomena arising and fading away. If not overwhelmed by extreme intensity (!), I can be outside of them and watch them come and go with equanimity. Not letting them shape a sense of identity. Not bonding with them. Not claim them as mine.

A person that controls life?

No no. I've surrendered!

Something else?

ah. I don't know. It feels a bit like a no man's land, here, at the moment. Not completely caught in the self, but not seeing through it either.

Can this be an erosion process?

Here for today.

Take care,

Eau Vive

[Eauvive]

Oops, some of the answers appear like a quote in a quote. Technical progress will certainly occur...

Eau Vive

[Canfora]

Dear Eau Vive,

Oops, some of the answers appear like a quote in a quote. Technical progress will certainly occur...

Ahah, yes. You can press Preview before Submitting and check if everything is okay before Submitting.

It feels a bit like a no man's land, here, at the moment. Not completely caught in the self, but not seeing through it either.

Can this be an erosion process?

Yes, it can. You are doing fine, please try to be patient :) One step at a time!

Three main observations:
1. The sense of looking out onto the world from a specific point of view. Mostly my eyes looking out.

It seems to me you're describing 2 things here:

1- the sense of looking - and this is an experience
2 - the idea that there is a me looking out from the eyes - and this is an assumption, an idea about what is going on

Check if this is true in your own experience. Would you agree with what I'm saying above? That 1 is a experience and 2 a assumption?

Would you say 2. comes after 1.? That the idea that there is a you looking out from "my" eyes comes after the sensation that looking out from the eyes is happening?

In short: sensation ---> interpretation (belief) ?

Lets say the looking stops. Would you feel less you? You can try closing your eyes and check what happens if the looking stops for a while. Notice if the sense of being a you goes away, gets stronger, diminishes or something else, when the looking is momentarily "off".

Does the sense of being you depend on the looking itself?
or
Does the sense of being you depend on what is being sensed + interpretation?

Or is it something else?

Would you say this sense of being you is "linked" to a real you? If the answer is yes, check if you reached this conclusion by relying on an experience or relying on an assumption. Is "you" something that can be experienced or an interpretation that pops up, caused by what is being experienced?

After doing that, answer the same question again: Would you say this sense of being you is "linked" to a real you?

If the answer is yes again, look to what is present and describe this you you are assuming is real.

Take care,
C

[Eauvive]

Hi dear Canfora, thanks for your questions. They were very targeted, it was very helpful.

Would you agree with what I'm saying above? That 1 (looking) is a experience and 2 (there is a me looking) a assumption?

Completely.

Would you say that the idea that there is a you looking out from "my" eyes comes after the sensation that looking out from the eyes is happening?

Yes. A bit like hearing a sound and then labelling it.

Lets say the looking stops. Would you feel less you? You can try closing your eyes and check what happens if the looking stops for a while. Notice if the sense of being a you goes away, gets stronger, diminishes or something else, when the looking is momentarily "off".

It changes in texture. It's more diffused, like a presence in the area of my chest where emotions move about and mix with thoughts. A very familiar presence, a bit like a homemade broth...

Does the sense of being you depend on the looking itself?
or
Does the sense of being you depend on what is being sensed + interpretation?

What is being sensed + interpretation. Over a long time, I suppose it has created that familiar presence, and it's very easy to take that as something that has always been there. Then it seems to be there first as the backdrop to anything new.

Would you say this sense of being you is "linked" to a real you?

No. I can't verify that it is real at all. But the habit of it is deeply rooted, so it presents itself as a backdrop constantly, almost like a reflex. Also, the 'broth' has simmered for so long and with so many ingredients, that although it probably is the result of interpretation, it poses at the interpreter.

In the past few days I have been playing a game, perceiving my environment 'as if there were no self' (of course you know there isn't, but at this stage, I have to tweak the mind consciously in that direction). It is much easier than expected, and it makes everything much more interesting and detailed. Also, it's very relaxing. All sort of superfluous obsessions and judgements just vanish.

"There is no self' is starting to make sense. I can see that it is congruent with experience in the NOW. But it is still very subtle and needs vigilance. Self is very good at coming back to the foreront. As soon as there is past and future involved, it is forceful.

Thank you, Canfora. Have good evening.

Take care,

Eau Vive

[Canfora]

Dear Eau Vive,

Thank you for your answers.

In the past few days I have been playing a game, perceiving my environment 'as if there were no self' (of course you know there isn't, but at this stage, I have to tweak the mind consciously in that direction). It is much easier than expected, and it makes everything much more interesting and detailed. Also, it's very relaxing. All sort of superfluous obsessions and judgements just vanish.

It seems you are playing with thoughts into perceiving no self? I'm not sure if I understand what you are doing. Can you describe what you're doing as best as you can? Give me an example or two of how that works for you.

Take care,
C

[Eauvive]

Dear Canfora,

I hope I can explain it. Let's say I walk on the street and I catch my train of thoughts bringing the things I see to myself, to what I'd like to have, how I'd like to be or creating a place for this moment in the big narrative of my life. I try to chop off that layer of 'me me me' and just see the things I see. I did it tonight on my way back from the train station. Then I really appreciated the lights on the street, and the laughter coming out of the pub, the paving of the pedestrian street I live on and the atmosphere of the evening. I felt lighter, freer and new.

It's a game with thoughts inasmuch as it implies becoming aware of them and redirecting my attention to the bare perceptions.

Let me know!

All wishes,

Eau Vive

[Canfora]

Dear Eau Vive,

I hope I can explain it. Let's say I walk on the street and I catch my train of thoughts bringing the things I see to myself, to what I'd like to have, how I'd like to be or creating a place for this moment in the big narrative of my life. I try to chop off that layer of 'me me me' and just see the things I see. I did it tonight on my way back from the train station. Then I really appreciated the lights on the street, and the laughter coming out of the pub, the paving of the pedestrian street I live on and the atmosphere of the evening. I felt lighter, freer and new.

It's a game with thoughts inasmuch as it implies becoming aware of them and redirecting my attention to the bare perceptions.

What you are doing seems to be a way of being more present in the now?
Do you believe you can get out of the now? Or that you can be more in the now?
Do you believe you need to do something to be more present in the now?

Being more in the moment isn't the goal of these conversations. The goal is to check if there is a real "I" here now. Have you been looking for this I also?

Take care,
C

[Eauvive]

Dear Canfora,

Do you believe you can get out of the now? Or that you can be more in the now?

No, but I believe that I can be more aware of the now and thin the veil of thoughts that seem to cloud my mind.

Do you believe you need to do something to be more present in the now?

I believe I need to do less in order to be in the now. Less thinking. I suppose that still qualifies as doing something, though. And the question makes it look a bit absurd. I have a habit of putting effort into lots of endeavours. I am putting effort into this conversation as well, although I have read enough to know that it's the wrong end of the stick.

Being more in the moment isn't the goal of these conversations. The goal is to check if there is a real "I" here now. Have you been looking for this I also?

Yes I have. I still strongly identify with the witness. The further I can go is when the witness is neutral, not feeling not judging. Not really me, but still an entity. Or when everything (matter, sensations, emotions and thoughts) seems to merge in a fluid coming and going of stuff happening and interlinked. That can't be upheld for very long, though.

Am I proceeding too much from a mental perspective? I have the feeling I'm going around in circles!

Take care,

Eau Vive

[Canfora]

Dear Eau Vive,

No, but I believe that I can be more aware of the now and thin the veil of thoughts that seem to cloud my mind.

You are saying this ^ is a believe. Why? Does that mean that sometimes the opposite happens: you aren't aware of the now and the veil of thoughts seems to cloud all the rest? Do you also believe that's something that shouldn't be happening? Something that you must change?

I believe I need to do less in order to be in the now. Less thinking. I suppose that still qualifies as doing something, though. And the question makes it look a bit absurd. I have a habit of putting effort into lots of endeavours. I am putting effort into this conversation as well, although I have read enough to know that it's the wrong end of the stick.

Do you need to put effort in sensing what surrounds you? Is effort necessary to see something? To sense something?

Yes I have. I still strongly identify with the witness. The further I can go is when the witness is neutral, not feeling not judging. Not really me, but still an entity.

There is an I that identifies with the witness? How do you know this is true? Do you sense this I? Can you perceive this witness? Are these more than thoughts, assumptions? Have a look around. Use the eyes. Use the senses. Is it possible to find an I and/or a witness when you look to what surrounds you? Can you find an I or a witness inside the body or outside the body or somewhere else?

Or when everything (matter, sensations, emotions and thoughts) seems to merge in a fluid coming and going of stuff happening and interlinked. That can't be upheld for very long, though.

How do you know there is something going on that you need to upheld? What would that be exactly?

Does this line of exploration resonates with you or are you getting frustrated by it? Frustration is normal and to be expected if you are thinking about these questions instead of checking your own experience to find the answers. This isn't an intellectual exercise, it's the plain seeing of what is here now as it is. So have a look and check if your ideas match what can be found - if they describe what is here now - or if they are just ideas. There is a big distance between thinking about pink elephants and finding one, it's the distance between imaginary stuff and experiential stuff. If the pink elephant that seems to be so real in thoughts can't be found, it has to be imaginary. It's the same with the I. Can't find it? It's an illusion.

Take care,
C

[Eauvive]

Dear Canfora, good morning.

Does this line of exploration resonates with you or are you getting frustrated by it?

It resonates, but yes! I'm getting frustrated. I've tried to look behind the frustration (the way you invited me to look behind the fear) and what I could see was the sense that:
1. I'm not good enough to break through
2. I'm not able to share my experience properly.
Both refer to a self, obviously, and a negative one at that!

What follows is the worry that you might loose patience because I can't shift quickly enough from my habitual ways. Erosion takes a while...

I welcome your comment:

Frustration is normal and to be expected if you are thinking about these questions instead of checking your own experience to find the answers. This isn't an intellectual exercise, it's the plain seeing of what is here now as it is.

I am so used to work with my thoughts and imagination, they come forcefully forward in any sort of enquiry. I have a super strong belief that simple direct perception is not good enough to vouch for the truth. That it might fool me.That science misses an awful lot of data by relying only on what can be seen and measured.

I acknowledge that it is a belief. I am very keen to let it go, but there is a lot of resistance as well. I look and see and wow, for a second I can really see there is no self to be found, but a flood of thoughts comes straight away: How come I can see it if there is no I? Who is seeing? Who is remembering my whole lifetime? Who has embarked on that LU conversation? Who is steering my mind in this direction? How come there is a sense of continuity in my life from one day to the next?

It doesn't seem to be all happening by itself. There seems to be an invisible agent at the root of it.

So have a look and check if your ideas match what can be found - if they describe what is here now - or if they are just ideas.

OK. I will. I am.

I also want to unpick all the other questions you asked in your last message. Take them one by one. It might take a few days. At the moment, I have to deal with a lot of painful emotions and I suspect it contributes to the stalling of my enquiry. I am overwhelmed by the sense of a struggling self... which I know in theory doesn't even exist. That's unsettling. No firm ground.

Thank you Canfora,

all wishes,

Eau Vive

[Canfora]

Dear Eau Vive,

It resonates, but yes! I'm getting frustrated. I've tried to look behind the frustration (the way you invited me to look behind the fear) and what I could see was the sense that:
1. I'm not good enough to break through
2. I'm not able to share my experience properly.
Both refer to a self, obviously, and a negative one at that!

Good. You can see these stories about a you while or after they play themselves. That's wonderful, many people aren't aware of this storytelling.

You have looked and saw the story behind the frustration. The idea is to look a little further than you did. To see if there is a real self behind those thoughts/sensations/emotions. To check if all that stuff is coming from a self, a me, a real thing that is you.

What follows is the worry that you might loose patience because I can't shift quickly enough from my habitual ways. Erosion takes a while...

Oh, no. Don't worry about me. I'm enjoying this conversation and I don't care about the time it takes until you see what I'm pointing to. Yes, erosion takes a while that's a good metaphor.

I am so used to work with my thoughts and imagination, they come forcefully forward in any sort of enquiry. I have a super strong belief that simple direct perception is not good enough to vouch for the truth. That it might fool me.That science misses an awful lot of data by relying only on what can be seen and measured.

It's the thinking that creates the illusion and we aren't trying to change the thinking, so you have to use other tool, the senses. Do you believe every thought that pops up? Or there are thoughts that you know aren't accurate, aren't real?

I also want to unpick all the other questions you asked in your last message. Take them one by one. It might take a few days. At the moment, I have to deal with a lot of painful emotions and I suspect it contributes to the stalling of my enquiry. I am overwhelmed by the sense of a struggling self... which I know in theory doesn't even exist. That's unsettling. No firm ground.

Ups. I just throw more questions at you. I can wait. Maybe you can try answering a question a day? It could be less overwhelming.

Take care,
C

[Eauvive]

Dear Canfora,

as planned I am taking the questions one by one and it is very helpful. Here for today.

I believe that I can be more aware of the now and thin the veil of thoughts that seem to cloud my mind.

You are saying this ^ is a believe. Why? Does that mean that sometimes the opposite happens: you aren't aware of the now and the veil of thoughts seems to cloud all the rest? Do you also believe that's something that shouldn't be happening? Something that you must change?

[/quote]

Yes, that's right. I sense a veil of thoughts, I assume it shouldn't be happening and I work at trying to change it. Interesting that you point out it is a case of "I believe"... Maybe the train of thoughts is also part of the now somehow, just something else that is arising?

Do you need to put effort in sensing what surrounds you? Is effort necessary to see something? To sense something?

Actually, no. The sequence goes like this: I sense (no effort) - I interpret (spontaneously) - I ponder/think/narrate (very habitual effort). It's the last bit I'd like to let go of, but it is such an ingrained habit that it happens by itself. To disactivate that habit is yet another effort. Maybe just seeing it would be enough?

There is an I that identifies with the witness? How do you know this is true? Do you sense this I?

Witness is not an I. It has no identity whatsoever. It is just like a stillness or a silence with the capacity to receive what is being sensed. It doesn't judge or interpret, nor does it creates narratives. It just is. Very comfortable to be just that. Very peaceful and spacious.

Can you perceive this witness? Can you find an I or a witness inside the body or outside the body or somewhere else?

The witness perceives (or receives perceptions?), but it cannot be perceived, as it is not "material" and offers nothing to be grasped. But (that's where I hit an obstacle): there is a point of view from which reality comes to the witness, so yes, it does seem to be located inside this body and to move with it in the world. It doesn't depart from the here where "I" am.

Or when everything (matter, sensations, emotions and thoughts) seems to merge in a fluid coming and going of stuff happening and interlinked. That can't be upheld for very long, though.

How do you know there is something going on that you need to upheld? What would that be exactly?

It is not the flow that I need to uphold... as it flows anyway. It is the effort of not pondering/thinking the flow, of not adding extra layers to it. The effort of defeating the habit I mentioned above.

Somehow today, it doesn't seem like such an effort, though. More like a sweet letting go. There's a big wave of emotional letting go here at the moment, and thanks to this conversation, other bits may fall off too. Some clarity has taken over the frustration I felt a few days ago.

Thank you very much.

I'll get to your second round of questions soon!

Take good care,

Eau Vive