Where to look next

[Matthew]

There was no effort around trying to make it happen in a particular way, there was just listening and moving all on its own. It was a piece by Bach I have played hundreds of times, but this time none of the past mattered, and there was no tension around it.

Yes..

There is uncertainty about whether "seeing" has really happened. When the uncertainty arises, I notice that as a feeling or thought, and then I continue looking for a "self". Still haven't found one. Still noticing the pattern of putting tremendous pressure behind 'becoming enlightened', but not giving that pattern any more energy.

The looking may continue until there is nothing left to look at.
Until also looking subsides.

And also fear around whether my life will come together and if I will be able to handle the challenges of the mundane world.

This would be a reasonable fear if there was until now a self steering life that is now gone.

But was there ever?

Look back at a moment in life which comes up.
Back then.. Was there really a self? Or was it back then also only thought describing a self?

Recall a moment of sadness. Was there a one, who was truly sad?
Or was it back then also just thought telling a story about a one, who is sad?


Was there a path?
Was there a someone on a path?

[Matthew]

Hi there!

I haven't heard from you in a while. Is everything alright?

Yours
Matthew

[Electabuzz11]

Everything is alright. Thanks for getting back to me.

There was never really a self steering life. There were only thoughts trying to amalgamate a self. Trying to define the self as this or that, trying to believe in those thoughts and then make decisions based on those viewpoints. All a fabrication.

Recalling a moment of sadness. There was never a one, just sadness happening. Thoughts arose making the sadness happening "to" me and because of certain life circumstances happening "to" me. But those were just thoughts. All of the self-pity and weightiness of the whole situation was created by the notion of things happening to an existent self.

There is only a path if there is a self or a someone to walk down it. What or whom can be improved upon, made more spiritual?

[Matthew]

Wonderful!


If there are no more questions from your side, then I would like to finish our dialog with some concluding questions.

Is that okay?

[Electabuzz11]

The only question that remains is, when will the confusion around "self" abate?

There is seeing that there's nothing there to see one day, then identification the next day. I continue looking for a self. I'm not in a rush because I want to see the truth and not trick myself. But I also feel this urgency. To really see, like seeing Santa Claus, so the dream can no longer continue.

Who is identifying?
I don't know.

Who is attached to outcome?
The fear of staying the same. The greed for a "better" "self".

Who experiences the confusion of seeing clearly and not seeing clearly?
I don't know.

[Matthew]

Yes. There is no rush!
We'll simply take all the time we need and look until there is nothing left to look at.

But I also feel this urgency. To really see, like seeing Santa Claus, so the dream can no longer continue.

There is no way to make the story stop alltogether.
Did the idea of Santa Claus cease to exist when it was seen through? No.
He still exists as a nice little story.

In the same way. Also the story of the character "me" was seen through and was seen for what it is.
Will that cause the story of "me" to vanish entirely? Unlikely.
But who cares about a story popping up here and there every now and then!
Who or what could truly be bothered by the appearance of a story!
It happens that sometimes thought will suggest again that the story of the me-character is a true story.
But we know better!

Who is identifying?
I don't know.

In the end we discover, that identification with the story was also just a part of the story.
Who or what is there to identify with the story?
No one! No thing!

The fear of staying the same.

It was seen without a shadow of a doubt, that the thought story about a me-character has always been just a story.
A story about a character that apart from thought about it never existed.
Could you really ever be truly fooled by that again!?

Who experiences the confusion of seeing clearly and not seeing clearly?
I don't know.

We will handle it this way:
Please report from daily life in which aspects there still seems to be a strong sense of identification.
On the basis of that, we will continue looking.


What exactly happens when there is "not seeing clearly"?



Looking foward to your reply!

[Electabuzz11]

Hello,

It's been a while! Writing from the mountains of Oaxaca now. Still engaging in the self-inquiry process, reading the Liberation Unleashed book. Life is a flux. Recently, during a meditation retreat at Hridaya Yoga Center, I saw deeper into the process of creating drama around the personality. It is just that - a drama of one's own creation. In spite of all the darkness and stuck-ness and confusion, the suffering of the personality is the creation of the personality itself, is an act of identification itself.

At the moment, and for the past few months or even years, the strongest identification is around the 'spiritual practice'. Having had peak experiences of bliss or non-duality, there is the desire to have a daily meditation practice, and frustration for not making this discipline a reality. Behind that is fear that 'I' will not be 'enough' without it, that 'I' will not be lovable or respectable if I am not deepening the connection with self, making the mind more clear. There is belief that I am lazy and lacking true motivation, and that redemption and freedom from shame will come when I have not just actualized a certain level of spiritual discipline, but have transformed myself through it.

How can I perfect a character of a story, something which is not real in the first place?

If 'spiritual practice' comes from the attachment to a particular identity, what is that practice serving?

Who is the one that needs to be seen as spiritual, attained, realized?

Who is the one that needs such 'attainment' to look a certain way from the outside?

Grateful for this space. Not looking for any question or answer in particular.

Nicky

[Matthew]

Hi there!
Glad to hear from you.

How can I perfect a character of a story, something which is not real in the first place?

That's right.
You cannot improve something that does not exist.
Forget what your gurus might have told you about this.
This is a hopeless endeavour.

the strongest identification is around the 'spiritual practice'

If 'spiritual practice' comes from the attachment to a particular identity, what is that practice serving?

The practice is serving an reinforcement of identification.
It strengthens an identity as a "spriritual pracitionier", "seeker", "spiritual person" and what not.
It's toxic.

Having had peak experiences of bliss or non-duality, there is the desire to have a daily meditation practice, and frustration for not making this discipline a reality.

I tell you a secret.
What you are looking for is going on NOW.
What you are looking for is going on HERE.
What does one have to do to reach zero distance right now?
That's right. Nothing at all!

There is belief that I am lazy

What "I" are you referring to?
Can a thought be lazy or not lazy?
This "I" does not exist. That which does not exist can neither be lazy nor diligent.
You're just imagining this.



I'd like you to answer these three questions:

spiritual discipline (...) transformed myself through it

What exactly is supposed to be transformed?

deepening the connection with self

Deepening the connection with what exactly?

making the mind more clear

Is there a "mind"?
Or is there a belief in a "mind"?



I'd strongly suggest that you now put aside all books, gurus and so on.
That you return fully to this investigation.
Let's end it now!
You're ready.


Sending love
Matthew

[Electabuzz11]

--What exactly is supposed to be transformed?

There is no self to be transformed. This personal development project is just a way of holding on to the belief that such a self can exist.

--Deepening the connection with what exactly?

Well, there isn't a self there to connect with deeper. I suppose those moments of connection I have experienced are by dropping the story of the self and just being, simply, in reality. So really all there is to do is see the bullshit for what it is. Then the "connection" or experience of reality happens on its own.

-Is there a "mind"?
Or is there a belief in a "mind"?

Mind is just a word / construct /concept used to describe the sum of a number of interdependent processes. It does not exist in reality. In reality, there is the physical brain. There are perceptions, thoughts, feelings emotions, sensations, etc.

[Matthew]

This is amazingly clear!

How does it feel to see this?

[Electabuzz11]

Things are a little upside down. Haha. Seeing no-self is not about bliss, or about being anything in particular really, although bliss is not excluded. Looking in the mirror, the face and body seem foreign.

I returned to the town with the yoga school and attended meditation this morning. When I woke up after little sleep, I asked, "who is the one that is resistant to going to meditation?" . In the meditation room I was asking - "who is the one that is trying to meditate?" , "what is to be perfected through practice?" , "who is the one that is resistant to the teacher speaking?" There are thoughts about how to structure my time, create a discipline etc. There are thoughts about relationships here, trying to manage them, rehearsing interactions.

Last night I practiced saying "thank you" to the mind, to the heart. There is a want for being liked and accepted that has become apparent since returning to this community. So I am watching this want arise and asking, "who is the one that wants to be loved, accepted?" And thanking the mind for this contraction.

[Matthew]

Last night I practiced saying "thank you" to the mind

What is saying "thank you" here to what?
Is there really an "I" that says "thank you to a thing called "mind"?

Try it again and observe.

Are there two entities in there?

Which of them are you?
One of them?
Or both of them?
Or none of them?

"who is the one that is trying to meditate?"

What exactly should benefit from such practices to begin with?

[Electabuzz11]

Haha. There is neither an "I" or a thing called mind which can be thanked. There is neither the thanker or the thanked. What a useless interaction !

There are no two entities. Both are constructs. I guess it was a game of sorts. It did help ease a sense of tension in the head.

I am neither. "I" is not.

With regards to meditation. Generally the feeling during or after meditation is one of greater clarity. I suppose the brain would benefit from such practices.

[Matthew]

I guess it was a game of sorts.

That's right.
Some call it the "Sport of Buddhas".

I suppose the brain would benefit from such practices.

"Suppose".
There is the term already.
This is not somthing, that can be observed in direct experience, but it is something assumed. Is it!
Stay with what can be experienced directly in any circumstance.

I am neither. "I" is not.

How does it feel to see this?

[Electabuzz11]

When I see "I am not" , there is nothingness, empty space. A sense of openness, freedom, intimacy. Also, there is no need for meditation. There's nobody there trying to get / become better. At any of the other sports for that matter, either. ;)