The Gate

It's easy to believe in the thinking. It's also relatively easy to check if the thinking is aligned with what is going on at the moment or is creating an illusion - when you know how to do this - but this takes some practice.

How do you do this? What's the general technique for this from LU?

What has changed is that there used to be a constant worrying about if the self was a bad self compared to other selves, that running commentary that used to bring so much suffering has been largely neutralized.

^ This is really all of the most painful suffering

Oh, yes. You can play with this. See if you have any control over the thought layer clouds.

There is no control over when the thought cloud layers come in, they are just the habitual and predictable responses to stimulus.

It is possible that, after seeing how you can't control thoughts, no matter how hard you try, you can just let them be without thinking that you should be doing something about them (like if you are listening to a annoying radio station).

This is all of the continual suffering too, thinking I need to push thoughts around with other thoughts. its like Alan Watts said, that is like trying to smooth disturbed water with your hand. To just accept these waves as they come without trying to solve them would make them just like the waves lapping at the shore; not a harm to anyone.

J: Should the self and control illusions be further examined, say in an every day routine?
C: If you have doubts yes. Absolutely. Unless that by examined you mean to think harder about these subjects. Thinking more will not be helpful. You have to look to see what is really going on, instead of relying in thinking.

Yes, thinking more is never helpful in cutting through thought.
I don't have doubts, but I think a practice of examination would be great as a core routine. Can you give any recomendations? How have other LU people done this?

Effort may be necessary. It seems to me that you are still expecting something to change, like if a veil could be lifted and voilá, no more illusions. Eventually this idea that you have to dissolve the rest of the illusions will stop bothering you and you will reach the next level: dealing with daily life, without expecting something special to happen (like the dissolution of the illusions). This, of course, is just my point of view. There are many people in groups connected with LU doing further investigation to dissolve the rest of the illusions and they seem to think they are getting results, so it's highly possible that may point of view is very biased. Different people, different outcomes.

Ha! The idea that a veil must be lifted and poof is just another thought floating through the experience. If given a whole lot of attention and importance it too could become the foundation for a thick cloudy thought layer of trying to lift the illusion.

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The present moment has this amazing quality that an imaginary moment doesn't has: it's real :)
You seem to have got what we point to really fast. Keep writing until you feel sure that you saw the illusion. What I would like to ask you next is to give me one example or two of situations that let you know there isn't a you in control of a slice of life. So, can you please have a look and describe what you see in your present experience that makes you say there is no controller? Thanks.

I love the present moment! It has so much depth!
In the present, I look at my body and search for the point where I feel there is a controller of experience, and eventually that search dissolves in to a crystal clear experience of reality where movements, sounds, feelings, thoughts are spontaneous and there is no perceived separation between the body and its surroundings. The mind had conceived of this metaphysical separation as kind of a volume-less protective coating of nothingness separating the body and its environment, or between the controller (visualized as a point of light in the heart) and the outside environment (including the body). Either way it felt like there was an impenetrable boundary between the "me" and "outside". When looking for this boundary it is evident that it does not exist. The body, the chair it rests on, the feeling of the head, the air behind it, are all one, parts of the same painting. In this painting there is the imagined idea of separation.

Hi Julian!

It's easy to believe in the thinking. It's also relatively easy to check if the thinking is aligned with what is going on at the moment or is creating an illusion - when you know how to do this - but this takes some practice.

How do you do this? What's the general technique for this from LU?

Well, you just notice what is going on, instead of focusing in the content of thinking.
It's just the plain beingness with the input the senses are providing. Nothing special, or spiritual. Just being present here, now.

This is a nice video about looking - LU - look with honesty: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... yNwhK2Ur1c

Here are some questions to help determine if there are any areas that may still need further exploring. Answer with some detail please and answer what's true for you, rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer and provide examples where asked. You can answer following your own rhythm, one or two a day or all at once.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
b) What makes things happen? How does it work?
c) What are you responsible for?
d) Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

The self that was presumed to be is an idea There is a body with a brain but no "I" force pushing things to happen. Past experiences and sense of self were very fragile and low self esteem and painful, but that doesn't me that "I" was bad in the past. Even of "I" was believed, it wasn't real. And "I" don't need fixing. I see that those were just anxieties and worries, that their presence didn't create a real I. The mind is conditioned and does have trauma that's being healed with the relationship with my dad and being bullied by friends, but that doesn't mean "I" am healing it, or "I" have to make this happen. Desires and pleasures and fun are just manifesting. I see that the idea of a self spirit inside the body is a weird idea that seems very unrealistic when examined.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

The Illusion of self is like this: My family seems to regard me in a certain way, and this makes me feel bad. What does this mean about ME? Who am I that others regard and treat me in this way? I must be weak, stupid, shameful, because I feel weak and unworthy compared to others. I have low self esteem. I need to fix these things about me, that give me the low self esteem. I'm faulty, I need to be corrected, so I can be like everyone else: worthy of love. The things I need to fix are: I am weak, obnoxious, to energetic, inconsiderate, stupid, shameful. OK, time to fix it.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

It feels great to see this. I am now feeling like everything will work out. There's a weight lifted off. I don't feel beholden to any beliefs anymore. I still have the "I" anxieties, typically centered around rejection. The thoughts are "They hate me, they are betraying me, they are trying to humiliate me, they are going to REJECT me", but I've been noticing that if I don't follow these thoughts and just wait around and see, the people aren't actually rejecting me.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Just the realization that I don't have any control of where my decisions come from, and that no matter what effort is made, the body and mind naturally respond to stimulus and then then "I" thought comes in afterwards. I had noticed this 2 summers ago, when I was hiking in the mountains and realized that I didnt have to think or make any effort to decide where to place my feet when walking over rocks, the steps just moved freely and effortlessly and I would watch them do it. Now it feels like every day I'm noticing hat all aspects of my body and minds reaction to stimulus are the same way, I can just watch them happen, and there's actually no way to decide to do something, because even this notion comes out of the blue, and then the decision that follows it will come out of the blue.

[/quote]5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
b) What makes things happen? How does it work?
c) What are you responsible for?
d) Give examples from experience.[/quote]

a) Decision free will and choice are illusions. The body and mind react to stimulus spontaneously and instantly, and then the "I should" / "I will" / I "want" thoughts come in to describe things that re already taking place. Intention seems to be manifesting something you want in the future, but its really just noticing what is desired, and then that thing naturally follows as you spontaneously go about doing the things that make that intention a reality. Its all observing and labeling what is already happening. With comedy, Ive been getting really inspired to make comedy, excited to write some stand-up material and do some improv, and I'm starting to reach out to people and go to shows and write material for an open mic I go to every Sunday. This is all happeing of its own acord; I was watching Curb your Enthusiasm and I was getting so excited and now I'm starting to write down jokes. There wasn't any rational calculated decsion that I should stat to watch comedy and make comedy, because for what reason should I do that? It doesn't necessarily do anything for me. So this is just a wave if energy passing through my life.

b) I dont know what makes things happen. That's assuming there's something that makes things happen.

c) I'm responsible for only imaginary problems in my head. haha

d) Ive just been noticing that things are unfolding without a push, and there's a pressure being lifted from thinking I'm in charge of everything and have to micromanage every single social interaction and decision. I don't feel like i have to FORCE things.

[/quote]6) Anything to add?[/quote]
I'm noticing I have the tendency to write and skew my answers to sound perfect. These are all truly my insights, and also I feel like I'm undergoing 2 separate arcs here: realizing there's no self to improve, and at the same time heal from past trauma in therapy and start to manifest the life I want to live.

Hi Julian. Thank you for your answers, I've enjoyed reading them. It seems you are seeing life from a more lighter perspective. Would you say the spiritual seeking has diminished or is over?

Hi Canfora,

I think that it is over for me! In fact I just did a standup comedy show about how spirituality is so stupid. Thank you for your guidance! I feel I know the no self and could guide others.

Thank you for the thank you! Nice to know you want to guide, LU needs more guides.

I'm waiting that one of the administrators has the time to read this conversation to check if we missed something. If admin. doesn't have more questions for you, you will receive an email with a notification that you have a Private Message (PM) from LU, which details the process of being invited and added to LU Aftercare, with information on further resources that are available. Keep an eye on your e-mail or - if you don't get that email after a while - you can go to forum, log in and get the message via the PM link on the forum.

Wait - so am I enlightened?

Eheh.... hoping that's a joke or I'm going to have to use a zen stick on you and go into a what can you find that can get enlightened spree! You've been blued. Welcome to the after the gate group Julian. Hoping to see you again in the guides group!

Thank you!