Wake up and walk through

[James Anderson]

There is experience experiencing itself, but suffering is a very specific aspect of it. What is it exactly?

[charleshyde]

There is experience experiencing itself, but suffering is a very specific aspect of it. What is it exactly?

Experientially, on top of aches, pains, longings etc. there is anxiety, irritation, loneliness, lethargy etc., all of which is labelled ‘suffering’. Then there is a sense of frustration that even the good things don’t last. Then there is the perceived suffering of others. This is by no means an exhaustive list! It can seem like suffering is everywhere one looks. However, as a sufferer can’t be found, these aspects of experience seem softer and less overwhelming (and exhausting).

But there’s also a need to try to understand this better: I remember someone saying ‘wherever there is time and space there is suffering’. From that I posited that when there is disconnection of any kind, suffering arises.

If I apply that to your words earlier in this thread:

So if, experientially, there is no experiencer and no doer, then what is suffering?

I conclude: suffering is (and is caused by) the wrong view of the self existing; there being a separate self which suffers; there being time and space, I guess. This illusion is the basis of all suffering.

Q: So why do babies learn to label? Why do they need this tool? Is all a big mistake, going back to the garden of Eden/tree of knowledge? Aeons of inherited ignorance – one giant mistake? Would the babies grow up to feed themselves, ask for what they prefer, later, to individuate, grow up etc. without this tool of self?

[James Anderson]

That question you ask is based on the assumption that your answer is correct, which it isn't :)

The answer is full of concepts that don't exist when concepts are dropped, such as anxiety, irritation, and loneliness etc.

Delve deeper. Drop concepts and just look at experience.

What is anxiety?

[charleshyde]

Anxiety is feeling of not being in control – of menace, of threat.

Anxiety is projection of bad outcomes to current flows.

Anxiety is racing thoughts. And contradictory ones. Collision. Confusion. Blockage. Stuck.

Let me delve some more and report back….

[James Anderson]

Keep delving, but consider this.

Menace is a concept. Threat is a concept. Not being in control is a concept. Thoughts of bad outcomes are concepts.

Collision. Confusion. Blockage. Stuck. More concepts.

Where do any of those things exist before thoughts arise?

[charleshyde]

Nowhere

[James Anderson]

So what is suffering?

[charleshyde]

Not being in the moment

[charleshyde]

Had a look again at your question this morning and realised that I may have misunderstood it – ‘What is suffering’ could mean ‘who’ is suffering to which the answer would be – nobody

[James Anderson]

No. Literally, what is suffering. What is it?

Q: What is an itch? A: A physical sensation
Q: What is a loud bang? A: A sound

Q: What is suffering? A: .......

[charleshyde]

A thought

[James Anderson]

So if there are no suffering thoughts, then where is suffering?

Do thoughts cause suffering, or are the thoughts themselves the suffering?

Can you give some examples of those thoughts?

[charleshyde]

Can I respond to your questions in this order?

Do thoughts cause suffering, or are the thoughts themselves the suffering?

I feel like I’m trying to crack a puzzle – and it’s a little bit stressful. I’m sorry if I’m being obtuse. I am really struggling to pin down what suffering is. Is it a thought or is it caused by thought? If it were the latter, then it would have a kind of independent existence which I don’t find when I look. So, it must be a thought itself. Please correct me if I’m on the wrong track – I could use some help here.

So if there are no suffering thoughts, then where is suffering?

I can’t see how suffering could exist in direct experience if there was no thought.

Can you give some examples of those thoughts?

When I think I have to find another job (which I do – in 5 weeks), thoughts arise such as ‘what if I can’t’ or ‘where shall I look’. There is pain in each one.

Although there could be many other things to fret over, generally, I find myself in a good mood – taking things less personally and often enjoying the moment which I attribute a lot to this process.

But back to thoughts - when I’m not thinking about getting another job, I’m not worrying about it consciously. Is this head in the sand? I rather feel like although there are not thoughts present, there is a background of anxiety – of quieter thoughts.

[James Anderson]

You seem to be getting it, dare I say seeing the truth, but then thoughts arise of, "is this wrong"?

When there are "wanting" thoughts, including new job thoughts, there is suffering. When there are no thoughts of wanting things to be other than they are, then there is no suffering. That's what you seem to be saying?

Why should periods of calm with no wanting thoughts be derogatorily labelled, "putting my head in the sand"?

If something can be done about something, then it is done. What purpose do thoughts of worrying serve?

[charleshyde]

You seem to be getting it, dare I say seeing the truth, but then thoughts arise of, "is this wrong"?

Yay! Thanks for the encouragement. And I agree that the double checking or distrust thoughts are there also.

When there are "wanting" thoughts, including new job thoughts, there is suffering. When there are no thoughts of wanting things to be other than they are, then there is no suffering. That's what you seem to be saying?

Well, to be honest I was confused by the task of defining suffering and I concluded that ALL thoughts are suffering – but it would seem more reasonable to label some thoughts as ‘suffering thoughts’ and others which do not want things to be other than they are – and hence are not suffering but calm or accepting thoughts. Perhaps it doesn't matter.

Why should periods of calm with no wanting thoughts be derogatorily labelled, "putting my head in the sand"? 

I was referring to a tendency I have recognized to just freeze in the face of difficult decisions. I sometimes let crisis make the call. But it’s painful and destructive. That’s maybe why there is difficulty with this:

If something can be done about something, then it is done.

Last point:

What purpose do thoughts of worrying serve?

I see that worrying is something a self would do if it existed, but as I cannot find it, then it must be pointless and things just happen. I used to write songs some years ago and one of them had the line in it: ‘When it appears I can’t use my fears I’ll be wide open wide.’