Stuck in the mud

[perrym]

Hi Diane,

Great answers there, thanks for looking so carefully.

The 'I' must be a belief because of the experience I have with hearing, that is just hearing. Yet 'seeing' 'thoughts' and 'feelings' seem to be give rise to uncomfortable sensations that I believe have an 'I'. But again I am labelling them as uncomfortable when they are just sensations. So the belief must be that my 'labels' are real. But are they real or are they just 'labels'? They must be just labels.

This is particularly excellent!

I am not sure I understand what free will is? My body moves around the environment and my arms and legs aid this. So is the 'I' directing this? Again it could be another belief that I have to label as 'I'.

I quite agree! Perhaps "Free will" is just a pair of words, and idea, a label that does not point to anything real in direct experience?

Some people feel very passionately about this pair of words, and feel that they must to point to something real. Like me, you don't seem to be able to find any evidence of 'free will' in direct experience - how do you feel about this? Is there any "I" involved in decision making, or can decisions, like thoughts and sense experience, 'just happen'?

When I ask myself 'in terms of direct experience, this is where things happen', I get the same arising sensations that have the label 'fear'. 'How do I allow them to just happen'? Well they are happening anyway, so if I can't control them because there is no "I", I am left with just experiences.

Again, very good observations, wonderful...

I am feeling a bit stuck

You don't seem remotely stuck to me, quite the opposite! You are entering into direct experience and seeing very clearly indeed.

Best wishes,

Perry

[DianeSt]

Hi Perry

I am feeling a bit stuck so will post now.

Instead of describing the sensations of feeling tired I reverted back to using a label 'stuck'

Some people feel very passionately about this pair of words, and feel that they must to point to something real. Like me, you don't seem to be able to find any evidence of 'free will' in direct experience - how do you feel about this? Is there any "I" involved in decision making, or can decisions, like thoughts and sense experience, 'just happen'?

I think I am holding onto something here about 'free will'. How am I able to move around if there is no 'I'? Who is orchistrating this action? How can it just be happening? Who is making decisions if its not the 'I"? If there is no 'I' who am I?

How am I able to move around if there is no 'I'?

Is it that I just 'do', but that I have a belief that it needs to have an 'I' to prove I exist. It must be a belief that there is a 'director' directing. Even though I can sort of see that its a belief, it still is lurking telling me there is a director! But I can't find the director. A director would have to think my thoughts, feel my feelings, and sense my senses and there is only me. What do I mean by 'me'? Me a bundle of sensations, thoughts, feelings and decisions.

I am worried that I am slipping away from direct experience.

Best wishes
Diane

[DianeSt]

Hi Perry

I just wanted to add to the post I sent today. I had a nightmare last night. Are nightmares bundles of thoughts that just arise in the same way thoughts and feelings just arise? However, I still seem to believe something is behind this experience even causing it, but yet I can't find it. So what is happening is it just arising?

Thanks
Diane

[perrym]

Hello again Diane,

There is a lot in what you wrote, and every bit is worth going into. However, we have to be selective, or the dialogue will mushroom and become unmanageable, so I won't respond to every point. If I've ignored a point you really want to look at, just raise it again.

Taking your second post first:

Are nightmares bundles of thoughts that just arise in the same way thoughts and feelings just arise? However, I still seem to believe something is behind this experience even causing it, but yet I can't find it.

If you can't find what is behind it, causing it, then I wonder why the belief that there must be something?

Nobody is suggesting that phenomena like thoughts and nightmares are devoid of logic, consistency or 'causality' - the real question is, are they more like:

• the weather, where everything affects everything else and the whole complex rolls on according to its own logic, or
• the Wizard of Oz, where there is some wizard-like 'agent' orchestrating it all

This is what we are investigating - can we find the wizard "I" making it all happen? And if not, what is the nature of this belief that there must be a wizard?

How am I able to move around if there is no 'I'? Who is orchistrating this action? How can it just be happening? Who is making decisions if its not the 'I"? If there is no 'I' who am I?

Interesting questions!

Let's just take the first one for now, and investigate....

Pay close attention to your limbs as you get up, walk around, and sit down again.

Your body will have made hundreds, maybe thousands of closely coordinated movements for this to happen - did you witness that an "I" was directing each of these movements?

I expect, as you wrote before,

I can't find the director

and yet

I have a belief that it needs to have an 'I'

This is precisely the tension that drives our investigation, this is our working ground. We need to keep bringing these two together, looking at the beliefs more and more closely, and seeing how they hold up in the light of direct experience.

I am worried that I am slipping away from direct experience.

When we look at the 'belief' side of the tension, we may drift away from direct experience for a while to explore the beliefs, that's fine too.

So what is a belief? Can you locate this belief in direct experience?

Best wishes,

Perry

[DianeSt]

Hi Perry

So what is a belief? Can you locate this belief in direct experience?

A belief is something that I believe to be true but not always baked by facts. I believe it until I know for sure that it is not true. 'But I don't believe everything before I know if its true or not'! 'So why do I choose to believe in the 'I''?

I got up and walked around the room and then sat down again. My body seemed to know what to do almost without me, so there was no "I" directing this. So my belief is false but yet I still believe it. I got up and walked around again and my body definitely knows what to do. I look around the room and I am just looking. When I ask myself why the 'belief' then, prickly fear sensations travel along my legs. Could it be that belief is fear holding everything in check?

Best wishes
Diane

[perrym]

Hi Diane,

When I ask myself why the 'belief' then, prickly fear sensations travel along my legs.

It is fairly normal to encounter fear when looking into these questions - actually, it can be a good sign that we are touching deeply held beliefs.

Are you able to tune into the fear again? If so, can you find out: what is actually feared?

It might help to consider: what if it turns out that "I" really is nothing more than an idea or belief? What would be the consequences if you dropped this belief in "I"?

Best wishes,

Perry

[DianeSt]

Hi Perry

Are you able to tune into the fear again? If so, can you find out: what is actually feared?

It might help to consider: what if it turns out that "I" really is nothing more than an idea or belief? What would be the consequences if you dropped this belief in "I"?

I am afraid that it is the "I" that holds me together, without it I would be really alone and on my own,
lost and trapped. And this would all be my fault.

Best wishes
Diane

[perrym]

Hi Diane,

I am afraid that it is the "I" that holds me together, without it I would be really alone and on my own,
lost and trapped. And this would all be my fault.

It is good to recognise this.

We normally consider fear to be negative, but fear is also very positive in the sense that it is protecting you from a perceived danger - fear is working for your benefit as best it can.

The question is, of course - is it possible that the fear is actually mistaken in some way?

Let's look at an analogy to help untangle this a bit....

When we are little, and we believe in Santa Claus, he is an important part of our world, at least around Christmas, maybe even all year if our parents use him to enforce good behaviour!

At some point, we might begin to get a glimmering suspicion that he does not exist ... maybe older children tell us as much, or we start to notice inconsistencies in the story, or between our experience and the story.

At first, we may well experience a kind of fear - fear that Santa Claus is going to be taken away, fear that our world will change in ways that might not be pleasant.

There are a couple of things worth drawing out here:

The first is this: the child will probably experience this as a threat of Santa Claus being taken away, in a similar way to a threat of having a favourite toy or even a family member taken away. In other words, they won't be able to distinguish dropping a false belief from losing something real.

In a similar way, it is very common, perhaps even universal before insight into no-self is well established, to confuse "seeing through the illusion of self" with "getting rid of self". We are not trying to get rid of anything in this enquiry, just to see clearly what is and is not the case. We are not even trying to "get rid of ego", which is something that many people take for granted is the goal - we are just trying to see what is really the case.

The second is this: the child is right that her world will change when the illusion of Santa Claus is seen through. In a sense, this is a 'justified fear', at least in the sense that any change is an introduction to something unknown.

In the case of a child seeing through the illusion of Santa Claus, the change might actually seem to be negative, as they are losing an innocent world of magic - but of course, everybody is ultimately happier to be grounded in reality rather than deluded by a fantasy created by someone else.

Similarly with seeing through the illusion of self - this does result in changes, and so some fear of the unknown is natural, justified even. Whereas the illusion of Santa Claus was mostly a happy, magical state of delusion, the illusion of self is mostly a confusing delusion that breeds all sorts of negative emotions, so the changes that eventually come about from seeing through the illusion of self are overwhelmingly positive and liberating. But any change, even change for the better, can be uncomfortable at first, so some fear around this is natural.

I'm out of time for now, and I haven't asked any questions!

Maybe you could just let me know your reaction to the above?

Perry

[DianeSt]

Hi Perry

I agree that I normally consider fear to be negative and it is good to be reminded that it is also positive when real danger is perceived.

The question is, of course - is it possible that the fear is actually mistaken in some way?

It is also possible that 'fear is mistaken in some way' and it was good to have this pointed out.

When I used to post my letters to Santa up the chimney, I used to wonder how he would get down such a narrow space, as well as how he would open the fire door when the handle was on the outside. So I don't remember being too surprised when the spell was broken. What I did lose that was real was my mother. So perhaps this belief of mine is muddled because I am not distinguishing between a false belief and something real.

I also agree that I am confusing 'seeing through the illusion of self' with 'getting rid of self'. I think I see them as being the same.

In the case of a child seeing through the illusion of Santa Claus, the change might actually seem to be negative, as they are losing an innocent world of magic - but of course, everybody is ultimately happier to be grounded in reality rather than deluded by a fantasy created by someone else.

It seems that I am deluded by a belief that I have created, yet I so want to be grounded in reality! I do so want to see through the self. The day after you asked me "do we experience the involvement of the ears when we hear environmental sounds?' I realised that I didn't. When I woke up the next morning I laughed because I realised that I was just hearing as I heard a sound outside the window. I felt a moment of joy and it seemed so obvious that the sounds were just sounds. But I haven't had the same experience with the other senses.

Thank you for helping me.

Best wishes
Diane

[perrym]

Hi Diane,

Whoops, I missed a day, back now!

Thanks for your comments - we will probably revisit these themes again, but for now, let's come back to where 'self' is believed to be, or to be necessary...

I realised that I was just hearing as I heard a sound outside the window. I felt a moment of joy and it seemed so obvious that the sounds were just sounds. But I haven't had the same experience with the other senses.

That's great! So you're in no doubt that hearing is not driven by a 'self'.

How about thought?

Does there need to be 'I' for thought to happen? What do you observe?

Put aside some time and notice thoughts as they arise, and pass, and the gaps in between thoughts.

Can you decide whether to think something or not think it?
Can you predict your next thought before you think it?
Can you stop a thought half way through?
Now that you read "big red balloon" is there any way you could avoid thinking of a big red balloon?

Is there a "you" that controls thoughts? Can you see it functioning?

Have fun!

Perry

[DianeSt]

Hi Perry

I am very pleased your back.

I had a dream after my last post. I was somewhere with someone standing next to me who I didn't know very well. Suddenly a mist came down which was in front of me. As the mist lifted I looked behind me and the scene had changed to a scene I new well. It was as if someone had changed the set design, that the real scene had been covered up by a set design which disappeared in front of me as the mist cleared. I turned to the person next to me and said it was an illusion all the time. This person ran off joyfully, but I had that alone feeling even though I was pleased to see the illusion. This is a change from having a nightmare.

Does there need to be 'I' for thought to happen? What do you observe?

Thoughts just seem to happen. While sitting and observing thoughts it felt as if there was nothing for a while and then a thought would happen without me doing anything. The awareness of the thought seemed to come after the thought! But can that be true?

If there is no 'I" for thoughts to happen who decides to read a newspaper or make a phone call if its not the self?

Put aside some time and notice thoughts as they arise, and pass, and the gaps in between thoughts.

Thoughts arise and pass. At first I thought there weren't any gaps, but as I tried to notice thoughts there was a gap as if there wasn't any thought. I decided to try to stay in that gap and see how long it would take for a thought to come. I couldn't keep it up for long because my thoughts started to describe my experience, like a running commentary.

Can you decide whether to think something or not think it?
Can you predict your next thought before you think it?
Can you stop a thought half way through?
Now that you read "big red balloon" is there any way you could avoid thinking of a big red balloon?

I think I can decide to think about something e.g. how to get the lid off a jar. But I can't not think it once the thought has happened.

I can't predict my next thought before I think it, nor can I stop a thought half way through as it has already happened.

When I read 'big red balloon' there is no way I can avoid thinking of 'big red balloon'.

Is there a "you" that controls thoughts? Can you see it functioning?

I don't think there is a 'me' that is controlling thoughts because they seem to just happen. But if I have a thought or an instruction to 'take the lid off the jar' is that a thought which a 'me' generated?

Oh I think I have got myself muddled here. Is it outside stimuli that is contributing to thoughts arising and not a 'me'?

Best wishes
Diane

[perrym]

Hi Diane,

Wow - interesting dream! It seems very positive.

I notice that's the second time you've mentioned feelings of alone-ness in connection with the illusion of self - this might be something worth looking into at some point if it keeps cropping up.

The awareness of the thought seemed to come after the thought!

That's a very interesting observation.

But can that be true?

If that is what you observe, then that is all there is to it, it is true in experience! But if you are not quite sure, why not look some more until you are clear?

If there is no 'I" for thoughts to happen who decides to read a newspaper or make a phone call if its not the self?

Great question!

Perhaps we could simply look into: how do decisions happen? You could set up a situation in which you can observe this happening.... Here's an interesting exercise:

I assume you've got a bookshelf? For the sake of the exercise, let's assume that you're going to read (or re-read) one of the books on the shelf, and you simply have to decide which one.

Take a look at the bookshelf, and notice what happens as you look over the bookshelf and come to a decision.

Oh I think I have got myself muddled here. Is it outside stimuli that is contributing to thoughts arising and not a 'me'?

Don't worry about "working out" answers logically - the thing is to see what you can discover in direct experience, and to evaluate your beliefs in the light of experience. This does not involve much (if anything) in the way of deduction, logic or working out.

Best wishes,

Perry

[DianeSt]

Hi Perry

The awareness of the thought seemed to come after the thought!

I have been having another look at this today and after several attempts I think I am wrong. Thoughts just happened. Noticing thoughts took a lot of looking so I am going to carry on exploring.

Take a look at the bookshelf, and notice what happens as you look over the bookshelf and come to a decision.

I scanned along the titles on the spines of the books. My attention was drawn to 'Chagall' as well as pleasant feeling too. Just holding the book made me smile.

So a decision was made, followed by a choice based on a feeling. That all happened without an 'I' because it happened in the moment. It all came together.

Best wishes
Diane

[perrym]

Hi Diane,

That all happened without an 'I' because it happened in the moment.

OK, good work!

So we've looked in a few places where you thought perhaps an controlling "I" had to be involved, including thinking and decision making, and so far, you've found that these experiences roll on without any need for "I"....

.... so where are we up to?

What is "I"? Is it anything more than a convention, an idea, a belief?

Best wishes,

Perry

[DianeSt]

Hi Perry

What is "I"? Is it anything more than a convention, an idea, a belief?

I understand that hearing and seeing just happens. Thoughts just happen. The movements in my body just happen. Feelings just happen. Decisions just happen. So 'I' must be a belief. "So why do I still feel the same"? "If I really understood this I would see that it is not real" "What can I do?" "How do I stop doing it?"

Help!

Best wishes
Diane