self for sale, one careful previous owner?

[Matthew]

So I can't stop thoughts after all, it's still going on all the time.

I just end up creating more thoughts?

So if we go back to the beginning...

What happens when you try to stop thoughts?
What can be observed?

[gondwana]

So if we go back to the beginning...

What happens when you try to stop thoughts?
What can be observed?

I can't stop them. It just creates even more.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Matthew]

And what about these thoughts with the content "I", "Me", "Mine" or "Not I", "Not me", "Not mine".
What about thoughts that tell "I am now thinking this thought".
What about thoughts that give rise to a sense of "I am here looking at things over there".

Can these thoughts be stopped?

Is there something special about these thoughts?
If so, what makes them special?

[gondwana]

And what about these thoughts with the content "I", "Me", "Mine" or "Not I", "Not me", "Not mine".
What about thoughts that tell "I am now thinking this thought".
What about thoughts that give rise to a sense of "I am here looking at things over there".

Can these thoughts be stopped?

No, I can't seem to stop them. No more than I can any other thoughts.

Ahh, so the feeling of being "inside" of a head looking out, is just a thought too? Which you therefore can't stop. You can only change your understanding of what that thought really is?

Is there something special about these thoughts?
If so, what makes them special?

As far as I can see there is nothing special about them.
They are all thoughts just the same!

There is no difference.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Matthew]

You can only change your understanding of what that thought really is?

Who or what could understand this?

This is not a trick question. Look for that, which you suppose would understand this and tell me what you find.

[gondwana]

Who or what could understand this?

This is not a trick question. Look for that, which you suppose would understand this and tell me what you find.

1) My first answer is that I don't know...Whatever answer I come up with, I'll have just thought it up in my head anyway, without having a clue?

I can never answer that question for real, because I just have no way to know. I'd just be guessing.

How am I ever going to know? I don't know how the brain or the mind works, I could guess and be wrong.

2) Then I thought that my first answer is all analytical, right? What you told me not to do.

So if I limit myself to direct experience only, then answer number two is that when I try to look (i.e. Think about it) I just don't know. I can't find it. I ask the question and I get silence



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Matthew]

when I try to look (i.e. Think about it)

That's the twist!

Looking is looking. Not thinking.
When posing a question, do not try to create an answer (i.e. Think about it).
Look at what is already there. Look at what presents itself.

I can't find it. I ask the question and I get silence

This is indeed an observation made by looking! Great!

Do not try to find a meaning for, or understand the silence. Only what exists can be understood.
Look at it! Innocently, like a little child looking at temple paintings.

Take your time and try the following especially when it is also silent around you. I may seem a little funny, but really. Do it!
Pose a question or two into that silence. And wait. What can be observed? Is there someone or something responding?

[gondwana]

Looking is looking. Not thinking.
When posing a question, do not try to create an answer (i.e. Think about it). Look at what is already there. Look at what presents itself.

Awesome. This is what I was really struggling with, not having tried it before.

Do not try to find a meaning for, or understand the silence. Only what exists can be understood.

Wow! That's amazing. Thank you!

Take your time and try the following especially when it is also silent around you. I may seem a little funny, but really. Do it!

Pose a question or two into that silence. And wait. What can be observed? Is there someone or something responding?

Ok I tried this quite a few times. If I ask a simple question I know the answer to (say what day of the week is it), I get an immediate voice in my head or a word just pops up, providing the answer. It's just my thoughts responding to themselves right?

If I ask something difficult like the question of where or who is the one who understands, or perceives things, I just get silence. Interesting!

Hey thank you for giving up your time to work through this with me and responding so promptly. I really appreciate it!



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Matthew]

You're welcome!
It is a pleasure to guide if someone is willing to look.

It's just my thoughts responding to themselves right?

Bring up a specific thought deliberately and look at it closely.
What exactly tells that it is "your" thought?
How do you know that?

If I ask something difficult like the question of where or who is the one who understands, or perceives things, I just get silence. Interesting!

Next, ask if someone or something is there.
Do you get a resposne?

[gondwana]

You're welcome!
It is a pleasure to guide if someone is willing to look.

:)

Bring up a specific thought deliberately and look at it closely.
What exactly tells that it is "your" thought?
How do you know that?

I can't really see anything in experience that specifically identifies it as "my" thought, it's just a thought. I don't see any tag on it specifically identifying the source of the information.

This brought up the scary philosophical question of "would you actually know if someone else inserted thoughts into your mind?"

But common sense responds that they must be all "your" thoughts because that's what common experience shows, so where else could they come from?

That's where I got to with it.

Next, ask if someone or something is there.
Do you get a resposne?

I got silence.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Matthew]

Next, ask if someone or something is there.
Do you get a resposne?

I got silence.

If there really was some seperate entity there, wouldn't there be a response?

I can't really see anything in experience that specifically identifies it as "my" thought

"would you actually know if someone else inserted thoughts into your mind?"

The question is: Would it even matter? Do thoughts belong to anyone?

We already saw that you cannot stop thoughts from appearing.
But can you choose what to think?
Can you choose what not to think?

And:
Can you observe the sense of being the chooser in direct experience?

[gondwana]

If there really was some seperate entity there, wouldn't there be a response?

Yes, I see your point!

The question is: Would it even matter? Do thoughts belong to anyone?

Not really, they are just transient phenomena which evaporate if you watch them so they are not something substantive that can be owned.

But can you choose what to think?

Well yes, I just chose to think about this issue in order to answer your question, I could have chosen to shrug it off and not answer it. But I WANT to answer it.

Can you choose what not to think?

That's much harder, the more you try not to think about something the more you think about it. You can choose to distract yourself with different thoughts though.

[quite]Can you observe the sense of being the chooser in direct experience?[/quote]

Hmmmmm....well yes, I just decide to think about a topic and thoughts on it begin to appear.

Although perhaps that's really saying that I can direct the topic of the thoughts, but I guess I can't choose the content of the thought that then arises. It just appears spontaneously and I don't control the content or know what it would be in advance.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Matthew]

And what about these thoughts with the content "I", "Me", "Mine" or "Not I", "Not me", "Not mine".
...
Is there something special about these thoughts?
If so, what makes them special?

As far as I can see there is nothing special about them.
They are all thoughts just the same!

There is no difference.

Well yes, I just chose to think about this issue in order to answer your question, I could have chosen to shrug it off and not answer it. But I WANT to answer it.

There is nothing special and no difference, but the thought "I" can choose to think or WANT something?
How does it do that? Does "I" speak? Does "I" think?


If there REALLY is no difference between I-thoughts and other thoughts, as you said, then we could replace the word/thought "I" in this sentence with any other thought/word and it would still make sense:

"Well yes, marmalade just chose to think about this issue in order to answer your question, marmalade could have chosen to shrug it off and not answer it. But marmalade WANT to answer it"

"Well yes, santa clause just chose to think about this issue in order to answer your question, santa claus could have chosen to shrug it off and not answer it. But santa claus WANT to answer it"

"Well yes, no one just chose to think about this issue in order to answer your question, no one could have chosen to shrug it off and not answer it. But no one WANT to answer it"

You see?

[gondwana]

Re-posting because the formatting went wrong

There is nothing special and no difference, but the thought "I" can choose to think or WANT something?
How does it do that?
Does "I" speak? Does "I" think?

This trapped me in an endless loop.

I'm laughing, because you trapped me in an argument I couldn't get out of!

"I" can't speak or think, so it can't choose what it wants.

"I" doesn't exist, does it?

If there REALLY is no difference between I-thoughts and other thoughts, as you said, then we could replace the word/thought "I" in this sentence with any other thought/word and it would still make sense:

"Well yes, marmalade just chose to think about this
...

You see?

Yes, I see that now. "I" is just an arbitrary label for a group of thoughts/thought processes.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Matthew]

This trapped me in an endless loop.
I'm laughing, because you trapped me in an argument I couldn't get out of!

Is this enough proof, that thinking about it doesn't lead anywhere? (Remember the thief-metaphore)
Is there really someone there having an argument with himself, whether he does exist or not?
Or are there just empty, ownerless thoughts floating around and telling a story about ALL that?
"All" i. e. including the that, which is apparently doing the arguing?

"I" doesn't exist, does it?

"I" does exist, but how? We cannot deny the appearance of "I", neither can we stop or alter its appearance.
But we can see it for what it is.

"I" is just an arbitrary label for a group of thoughts/thought processes.

Sí!


What thoughts "do" is pointing to something. They either point to something you can find in reality, or they point only to other thoughts (loop).
If you say "I" and LOOK at this thought, what can you find?
What does it point to?
What comes up?
Please have a thorough look at this thought and report what you find, what goes alongside it?