HI Brad,
From what you say it sounds like you are very close to really seeing / experiencing life without a self or I. Let's look at thinking and thought as this is where lots of people get "stuck" as they identify themselves with thinking and the "voice" in their head.
Spend a little bit of time investigating each statement and post back when you are ready
Do you bring thoughts? If so from where and how?
Do you send them away?
Do you know what you're going to think before you think it? Sit quietly for a moment and try to predict your next thought. Does it work?
Do you plan what you are going to think before you think it?
Can you know your next thought before it arises and stop it from arising if you don't like it?
Is there is a thought that you can control?
What can a thought do – what power does it have?
Did any of these thoughts come on purpose?
You experience thoughts, but do you experience the content? Is the content real?”
Amrita
End Seeking >>Begin Liberation
Re: End Seeking >>Begin Liberation
No- thoughts just come like an itch I think I need to scratch. When I was in high school choir the Teacher used to tell us to resist the temptation to scratch during a performance. He said eventually the itchiness would go away. Again, another way for the body to survive. An itch signals the body that a parasite wants to invade and that if I don't scratch I will die. When a thought pops in it is a way to tell the body to look for the next thing: food, comfort, attachment, or whatever it can get me to do help it survive, perpetuate. This always leads to suffering because it will never be satisfied.Do you bring thoughts? If so from where and how?
They arise and pass away, only to be replaced with another thought to continue the cycle. Trying to suppress, depress thought only strengthens the next thought. The best way to diminish their strength is to watch, observe, experience them like clouds drifting through the sky.Do you send them away?
No. predicting thought would be akin to seeing the future. Time doesn't exist between thoughts. I-me-self doesn't know this because that would require thought. Predicting would imply future, which means that time is involved, which requires thinking. It can't possibly be true.Do you know what you're going to think before you think it? Sit quietly for a moment and try to predict your next thought. Does it work?
Planning is good. Planning my next thought is like trying to figure out which is going to be the next kernel of popcorn to pop. It's more fun just to watch and not be frustrated.Do you plan what you are going to think before you think it?
No, the only thing remotely predictable is that there will be a next thought. Anything that self does to stop thought increases the frequency of thought. Awareness of thought diminishes its strength and ability of self to perpetuate.Can you know your next thought before it arises and stop it from arising if you don't like it?
No, it is counterintuitive to see that awareness of thought is a way to allow it to pass away. Awareness that my itch will pass away allows it pass away. Can it be that thought IS the counterintuitive factor in the ....Is there is a thought that you can control?
What can a thought do – what power does it have?
Did any of these thoughts come on purpose?
You experience thoughts, but do you experience the content? Is the content real?”
I'm off for a one day retreat with Sharon Salzberg. I'll continue with this line of questioning tomorrow. You can respond or not. Have a great weekend.
Re: End Seeking >>Begin Liberation
Hi Brad,
I hope you enjoyed your retreat and managed to see through any illusions attached to the belief there is a seperate I or self.
In case you didnt and want to look further let’s look more at the nature of thought and thought content.
Can you see that thoughts about something are not the actual thing they are describing? For example, thoughts about an apple are not the actual apple itself? I know this sounds very obvious but bear with me.
When we talk about actual experience we are talking about our actual direct sense experience of life and not becoming caught up in thoughts about experience because thought can only refer to other thoughts. Actual experience is made up from sound, colour, smell, taste, sensation and lots of thoughts such as labelling thoughts, analysing thoughts, imaginative thoughts etc.
Try this exercise. Put an orange (or any other piece of fruit) in front of you and pay attention to what is going in your actual experience.
What do you see? Can you describe what is happening in your actual experience?
Can you notice colour and shape and the labelling thought “orange”? Maybe there are lots of other thoughts about oranges.
However, in your direct experience is there really an ‘orange’ here, or only colour, shape and a thought ABOUT an ‘orange’?
Can ‘orange’ be found in actual experience?
While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.
For example,
Taste labelled ‘orange’ is known
Colour labelled ‘orange’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘orange’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘orange’ is known
Thought about/of an "orange’ is known
However, is an orange actually known?
If you pick the orange up and close your eyes can you feel the sensations in your hand separately from the orange itself? Are there not just sensations? Is it possible to really experience the orange outside of thoughts about the orange?
This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What else do we have but the actual experience of the here and now? And in your actual experience of the here and now can anything resembling a self be found?
Warmly,
Amrita
I hope you enjoyed your retreat and managed to see through any illusions attached to the belief there is a seperate I or self.
In case you didnt and want to look further let’s look more at the nature of thought and thought content.
Can you see that thoughts about something are not the actual thing they are describing? For example, thoughts about an apple are not the actual apple itself? I know this sounds very obvious but bear with me.
When we talk about actual experience we are talking about our actual direct sense experience of life and not becoming caught up in thoughts about experience because thought can only refer to other thoughts. Actual experience is made up from sound, colour, smell, taste, sensation and lots of thoughts such as labelling thoughts, analysing thoughts, imaginative thoughts etc.
Try this exercise. Put an orange (or any other piece of fruit) in front of you and pay attention to what is going in your actual experience.
What do you see? Can you describe what is happening in your actual experience?
Can you notice colour and shape and the labelling thought “orange”? Maybe there are lots of other thoughts about oranges.
However, in your direct experience is there really an ‘orange’ here, or only colour, shape and a thought ABOUT an ‘orange’?
Can ‘orange’ be found in actual experience?
While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.
For example,
Taste labelled ‘orange’ is known
Colour labelled ‘orange’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘orange’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘orange’ is known
Thought about/of an "orange’ is known
However, is an orange actually known?
If you pick the orange up and close your eyes can you feel the sensations in your hand separately from the orange itself? Are there not just sensations? Is it possible to really experience the orange outside of thoughts about the orange?
This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What else do we have but the actual experience of the here and now? And in your actual experience of the here and now can anything resembling a self be found?
Warmly,
Amrita
Re: End Seeking >>Begin Liberation
Thanks Amrita,
I like the example of the orange because it involves more than one sense. In each case of smelling, tasting, or seeing the orange memory is used to conjure up the label orange. All thought comes from memory. The conditioned, separate self comes from memory. I was myself at 5, 10 and 20 years of age. This really makes no sense because I was a totally different person at each age. The only logical conclusion to come up with is that if I was a different person at different times of my life there really cannot be a separate person.
I just finished arguing with my daughter about something. I rearranged the furniture in the kitchen. She put it back the way it was. I told her that she was inconsiderate. It went back and forth, accusing, like Zorba the Greek called, "the whole catastrophe." Oh yeah, and I compared her to her Mom, my ex-wife. Stupid shit. The argument was about such a tiny thing, but the memory of all the arguments from the past factored in. She's really a nice person but mired in the past like me.
The hang-ups and suffering ALL have to do with the same thing. Identifying with the past where memory inhibits actual experience. It also compounds the delusion of self. If I were to take the take the actual experience of the orange or conversing with my daughter in the light of reality it would just be sound and light. Even if I could only see the actual experience as an angry conversation (which I did afterward) there is only thought and sensation in my body. The sensation in my body is mostly in my gut. If I could be aware of the sensation, as if I were witnessing it instead of being "in" the argument I could avoid all the gunk I-ME "experienced."
I like the example of the orange because it involves more than one sense. In each case of smelling, tasting, or seeing the orange memory is used to conjure up the label orange. All thought comes from memory. The conditioned, separate self comes from memory. I was myself at 5, 10 and 20 years of age. This really makes no sense because I was a totally different person at each age. The only logical conclusion to come up with is that if I was a different person at different times of my life there really cannot be a separate person.
I just finished arguing with my daughter about something. I rearranged the furniture in the kitchen. She put it back the way it was. I told her that she was inconsiderate. It went back and forth, accusing, like Zorba the Greek called, "the whole catastrophe." Oh yeah, and I compared her to her Mom, my ex-wife. Stupid shit. The argument was about such a tiny thing, but the memory of all the arguments from the past factored in. She's really a nice person but mired in the past like me.
The hang-ups and suffering ALL have to do with the same thing. Identifying with the past where memory inhibits actual experience. It also compounds the delusion of self. If I were to take the take the actual experience of the orange or conversing with my daughter in the light of reality it would just be sound and light. Even if I could only see the actual experience as an angry conversation (which I did afterward) there is only thought and sensation in my body. The sensation in my body is mostly in my gut. If I could be aware of the sensation, as if I were witnessing it instead of being "in" the argument I could avoid all the gunk I-ME "experienced."
In the moment of smelling-tasting-seeing-touching the ORANGE or arguing with my daughter there is no self. I overlook this fact when I put my labels on like - oh, this again....instead of actual experience. In other words, I veil actual experience with ME-I. Actual experience is happening all the time, it is just obscured by this overwhelming sense of self/me/I. Survival of self/me/I is more important than LIFE. Good grief.And in your actual experience of the here and now can anything resembling a self be found?
Re: End Seeking >>Begin Liberation
Hi Brad,
Sorry to hear about your arguing with your daughter. I hope you have kissed and made up :)
When you say,
Can you also say how you experience thoughts? are their words, sounds, pictures?
Is memory ever real or is it a fantasy about the past?
Lastly, does this conditioned, seperate self express itself through certain thoughts? In other words, are some thoughts more real than others?
Amrita
Sorry to hear about your arguing with your daughter. I hope you have kissed and made up :)
When you say,
Can you say a bit about what your experience of memory is? Is memory another type of thought?All thought comes from memory. The conditioned, separate self comes from memory.
Can you also say how you experience thoughts? are their words, sounds, pictures?
Is memory ever real or is it a fantasy about the past?
Lastly, does this conditioned, seperate self express itself through certain thoughts? In other words, are some thoughts more real than others?
Amrita
Re: End Seeking >>Begin Liberation
Memory IS Thought for the separate self. It is the fuel for extending and compounding the conditioned self. Thought through direct experience (without memory) is only experienced in the here and now. I wish I could think of a separate word to describe memory thought and now thought.Can you say a bit about what your experience of memory is? Is memory another type of thought?
All memory thoughts are the same, no matter if they are words, sounds, or pictures. Remembering my favorite song from 7th grade or an apple pie smell from 3rd grade occurs in the same field and is made of the same "stuff." If I smell an apple pie NOW, first I experience the smell and then I reference other apple pies in the past. First I experience the smell and then I label it as apple pie from my memory.Can you also say how you experience thoughts? are their words, sounds, pictures?
Nostalgia and reminiscing pale in comparison to directly, actually experiencing something in the here and now. I make a like/dislike judgement of experience where none is necessary. This is a huge cost in identifying with the separate self. I label and compare everything to "past experience." Past experience is the same illusion as the separate self. Neither of these things is real. I give up having a real, direct experience just so that I can pump up and reinforce me-I-my(self). How miserable. I could even have a direct experience of something angry, sad, or lonely and not have to suffer through it, if I could just not identify with MEmory-my(self).
No, memory is never real, at least when it comes to MY memories that have caused me to retain my state of a separate self. There is so little that thought/memory/self can do to make Living Life any better. In almost any instance, Living and Being with Awareness and being present now is far better than thinking myself as I.Is memory ever real or is it a fantasy about the past?
Re: End Seeking >>Begin Liberation
Hi Brad,
Some very interesting points you raise in your answers. When you say, "Memory IS Thought for the seperate self" are you saying the seperate self exists in thoughts about the self or in the awareness of those thoughts? In other words are you the thought content or are you the watcher of thought?
When you say this,
Amrita
Some very interesting points you raise in your answers. When you say, "Memory IS Thought for the seperate self" are you saying the seperate self exists in thoughts about the self or in the awareness of those thoughts? In other words are you the thought content or are you the watcher of thought?
When you say this,
Can you say whether the past or future exist? If you close your eyes and become aware of your direct experience of the here and now can you say the past exists outside of concepts or memories about it? Can you say the future exists outside of thoughts about it? What else can we experience apart from the everchanging NOW?Nostalgia and reminiscing pale in comparison to directly, actually experiencing something in the here and now. I make a like/dislike judgement of experience where none is necessary. This is a huge cost in identifying with the separate self. I label and compare everything to "past experience." Past experience is the same illusion as the separate self. Neither of these things is real. I give up having a real, direct experience just so that I can pump up and reinforce me-I-my(self). How miserable. I could even have a direct experience of something angry, sad, or lonely and not have to suffer through it, if I could just not identify with MEmory-my(self).
Amrita
Re: End Seeking >>Begin Liberation
The illusion of separate self persists for me because of years of memory of the separate self. I am becoming aware of being aware of this illusion. I'm not sure how to deal with these memories. I can be non dual NOW but when I get lost in thought/memory I'm back to the same old me-I-my-self. I know the truth of the illusion but I still spend so much time stuck in the muck of self. Like when I was arguing with my daughter(Sophia). I get caught up in the drama of thinking myself as separate. I make me the center of my universe and narrow my view to a tunnel. My Sophie and I forgot the silly argument by the next day. I participate in the memory/drama/self every day. It's frustrating not being able to get on top of it. It seems an uphill struggle. When do I get to the top so that I can coast, glide effortlessly. This must be possible, isn't it Amrita? Can you describe your experience of Life compared to mine?"Memory IS Thought for the separate self" are you saying the separate self exists in thoughts about the self or in the awareness of those thoughts? In other words are you the thought content or are you the watcher of thought?
The past does not exist. It only seems to exist to the separate self from a mock-up of memories. The future for the separate self is just a reference to the past. It believes that it can know the future because of what has happened in the past. Past and future are all memories of the past. These all provide information to the mind/brain just like sensation provides input/information. We can only experience now. I feel like my reliance on thinking/memory keeps me stuck in the muck of separateness.Can you say whether the past or future exist? If you close your eyes and become aware of your direct experience of the here and now can you say the past exists outside of concepts or memories about it? Can you say the future exists outside of thoughts about it? What else can we experience apart from the everchanging NOW?
I can imagine living NOW and experiencing the flow that you all speak of but it is just thought. It seems just a more subtle way for my separate self to perpetuate itself. My imagining is still the seeking that I want to end.
Re: End Seeking >>Begin Liberation
Hi Brad,
When you say,
When you become lost in thought/memory isn't it the case you are becoming identified with the contents of thought rather than being aware of thought itself? Is the self contained within the contents of thought (mental images, words, sounds, etc) or is the self the one who is observing thoughts?
The essence of this inquiry is in paying attention to the direct here and now of your experience to what is actually going on. The more you can do this the more easy it is to see that there is no self or I at the centre interpreting or controlling things. Life is simply what is happening. As you read these words on a screen is there a self in "there" reading the words out here? Isnt it more the case that there is seeing, hearing, sensations, thinking occurring without a self at the centre to regulate or mediate experience?
Amrita
When you say,
can you say a bit more about how exactly you get lost in thought/memory? Is the self the one who remembers or is the self the content of memory?The illusion of separate self persists for me because of years of memory of the separate self. I am becoming aware of being aware of this illusion. I'm not sure how to deal with these memories. I can be non dual NOW but when I get lost in thought/memory I'm back to the same old me-I-my-self
When you become lost in thought/memory isn't it the case you are becoming identified with the contents of thought rather than being aware of thought itself? Is the self contained within the contents of thought (mental images, words, sounds, etc) or is the self the one who is observing thoughts?
For me this process resulted in a much greater sense of openess and freedom from being stuck or identified with thoughts or mental objects. Thoughts still arise but I am able to see them as not real and they no longer have power over me. Bringing this back to you, it seems you are still getting stuck in thoughts about the past that pull you out of your ability to live in the everchanging now of direct experience. Does that sound right?I participate in the memory/drama/self every day. It's frustrating not being able to get on top of it. It seems an uphill struggle. When do I get to the top so that I can coast, glide effortlessly. This must be possible, isn't it Amrita? Can you describe your experience of Life compared to mine?
The essence of this inquiry is in paying attention to the direct here and now of your experience to what is actually going on. The more you can do this the more easy it is to see that there is no self or I at the centre interpreting or controlling things. Life is simply what is happening. As you read these words on a screen is there a self in "there" reading the words out here? Isnt it more the case that there is seeing, hearing, sensations, thinking occurring without a self at the centre to regulate or mediate experience?
Who is reliant upon these thoughts or memories? Is there a self present that relies on thought or is thought simply occuring within the field of awareness?I feel like my reliance on thinking/memory keeps me stuck in the muck of separateness.
Amrita
Re: End Seeking >>Begin Liberation
Thank you Amrita,
I continued reading the Gateless Gatecrashers book on the website yesterday. I know that yesterday's post must've been hard for you to read. I guess that all of the posts from me and other people "at the gate" must be difficult for you. I read something yesterday, I don't even remember what. It made me "think." The separate self I-me-mine(Beatles credit) IS the thinking/thought. I went to sleep, as frustrated as I when I wrote yesterday. When I woke up, as usual, I started mulling over the same thing. Like everyone else that goes through this inquiry process I had this simple thought. The I IS THINKING. The I IS THOUGHT. The difference between thinking and what I was thought to function is the difference between separate self and LIFE or WHAT IS. It seemed to simple to be true. Thinking itself is the separation. I made coffee and it was just watching the process happen. I ground the beans, boiled the water, poured it into the French Press. Pushed the coffee through the water. I then went outside and drank the coffee. I was back to my first kensho/opening moment that I had a few months ago only now I feel something permanent.
I've been meditating for about 3 and a half years. Most of it has been half-hearted. I know it is a means to KNOW that meditation=not thinking. I also had this thought. There's nothing wrong with Meditation. There's nothing wrong with taking a shower every day. There's nothing wrong with taking 3 showers a day. There's nothing wrong with sleep. There's nothing wrong with sleeping in on a Saturday morning. Meditation is good. I don't do yoga. Yoga is good. What these activities are supposed to lead to is the realization of no I-me-mine(really a George Harrison cred.) Knowledge of dukkha and anicca are supposed to lead to knowledge of anatta. Many people probably don't feel like they have time to do this direct inquiry into non-dualism. Most people probably don't see how important this is to their practice, spirituality or Life. Yogananda, Jesus, Ramakrishna, Amrita, Maharshi, Buddha and I do. What could possibly more important?
I remember reading a short story of a man and dog on a hike when a snowstorm broke out. The man jumped across a wide cliff/rock gap in his path leaving his dog behind. The dog was scared to jump the gap, even though he had proven himself able to jump this distance many times in the past. The man kept calling the dog from the other side. Finally, the dog worked up the courage and leaped across the path. They lived happily ever after. The End. Another little analogy - an elephant at the zoo gets chained up by one leg so that he can eat and not run off. After a while, only a thin rope loosely tied around his leg suffices to keep the elephant from running. She could easily snap the rope and walk off. The elephant is conditioned to think that she cannot break the "chain" and so WILL not. My problems of my conditioned mind have lead to far worse limitations. I see the self/conditioned mind like the gateless gate in the book. The rope that I think is a chain is keeping me limited to my idea of self.
Amrita these last few entries and your line of questioning have made me think. Why is she sticking to these basic ideas like the sensation with an orange when i already "get" that? There is nothing to "get." I understand why you wanted to go so slow with this. There isn't any higher concept to understand. On the contrary, it is the least intellectual thing ever. I talk about the difference between functional thinking to get things done and thought/thinking. Separating the two things is the point in the first place. The self I-me-my thinking is the illusion that causes the separating. The functional thinking that I differentiate is all there is. It is Life. Thanks to you for spoon-feeding me this so that i can see this transparently. Thank you for being patient.
Yes, Yes. It is the thought itself that has kept me from seeing that thought IS I-me-mine. I was looking to the loss of identity as a thing instead of seeing thought as the illusion itself. The content of memory IS self. When I am lost in thought/memory I am lost in I-me-mine. When I am aware of thought it is the same as being aware of the color, shape, texture, smell and taste of the orange. Yes, Yes.
Wow. Amazing. I really really did think that I understood this but I didn't until now. Could you please stick with me until we both know for sure that I on the right track. I'm sure you know this- this is the way to get what everyone real wants for their LIFE. At least this is a really good method to get there. Thank you so much for helping me get this far. LOVE.
I continued reading the Gateless Gatecrashers book on the website yesterday. I know that yesterday's post must've been hard for you to read. I guess that all of the posts from me and other people "at the gate" must be difficult for you. I read something yesterday, I don't even remember what. It made me "think." The separate self I-me-mine(Beatles credit) IS the thinking/thought. I went to sleep, as frustrated as I when I wrote yesterday. When I woke up, as usual, I started mulling over the same thing. Like everyone else that goes through this inquiry process I had this simple thought. The I IS THINKING. The I IS THOUGHT. The difference between thinking and what I was thought to function is the difference between separate self and LIFE or WHAT IS. It seemed to simple to be true. Thinking itself is the separation. I made coffee and it was just watching the process happen. I ground the beans, boiled the water, poured it into the French Press. Pushed the coffee through the water. I then went outside and drank the coffee. I was back to my first kensho/opening moment that I had a few months ago only now I feel something permanent.
I've been meditating for about 3 and a half years. Most of it has been half-hearted. I know it is a means to KNOW that meditation=not thinking. I also had this thought. There's nothing wrong with Meditation. There's nothing wrong with taking a shower every day. There's nothing wrong with taking 3 showers a day. There's nothing wrong with sleep. There's nothing wrong with sleeping in on a Saturday morning. Meditation is good. I don't do yoga. Yoga is good. What these activities are supposed to lead to is the realization of no I-me-mine(really a George Harrison cred.) Knowledge of dukkha and anicca are supposed to lead to knowledge of anatta. Many people probably don't feel like they have time to do this direct inquiry into non-dualism. Most people probably don't see how important this is to their practice, spirituality or Life. Yogananda, Jesus, Ramakrishna, Amrita, Maharshi, Buddha and I do. What could possibly more important?
I remember reading a short story of a man and dog on a hike when a snowstorm broke out. The man jumped across a wide cliff/rock gap in his path leaving his dog behind. The dog was scared to jump the gap, even though he had proven himself able to jump this distance many times in the past. The man kept calling the dog from the other side. Finally, the dog worked up the courage and leaped across the path. They lived happily ever after. The End. Another little analogy - an elephant at the zoo gets chained up by one leg so that he can eat and not run off. After a while, only a thin rope loosely tied around his leg suffices to keep the elephant from running. She could easily snap the rope and walk off. The elephant is conditioned to think that she cannot break the "chain" and so WILL not. My problems of my conditioned mind have lead to far worse limitations. I see the self/conditioned mind like the gateless gate in the book. The rope that I think is a chain is keeping me limited to my idea of self.
Amrita these last few entries and your line of questioning have made me think. Why is she sticking to these basic ideas like the sensation with an orange when i already "get" that? There is nothing to "get." I understand why you wanted to go so slow with this. There isn't any higher concept to understand. On the contrary, it is the least intellectual thing ever. I talk about the difference between functional thinking to get things done and thought/thinking. Separating the two things is the point in the first place. The self I-me-my thinking is the illusion that causes the separating. The functional thinking that I differentiate is all there is. It is Life. Thanks to you for spoon-feeding me this so that i can see this transparently. Thank you for being patient.
can you say a bit more about how exactly you get lost in thought/memory? Is the self the one who remembers or is the self the content of memory? When you become lost in thought/memory isn't it the case you are becoming identified with the contents of thought rather than being aware of thought itself? Is the self contained within the contents of thought (mental images, words, sounds, etc) or is the self the one who is observing thoughts?
Yes, Yes. It is the thought itself that has kept me from seeing that thought IS I-me-mine. I was looking to the loss of identity as a thing instead of seeing thought as the illusion itself. The content of memory IS self. When I am lost in thought/memory I am lost in I-me-mine. When I am aware of thought it is the same as being aware of the color, shape, texture, smell and taste of the orange. Yes, Yes.
Yes. All there is is sensation coming from the outside in and perception of the outside world in. This reality can only happen NOW. Thinking can only happen NOW. Suffering can only happen NOW. Awareness of emotion, thinking, suffering are no different than awareness of the orange. WOW!Isn't it more the case that there is seeing, hearing, sensations, thinking occurring without a self at the centre to regulate or mediate experience?
Yes. Thought(and my pesky memories HEE-HEE) is just happening within the field of awareness. identification with thought is the root of the PROBLEM. I said in a previous entry. I am not my arm. I am not my brain. I am not my mind. I thought that this was clever. Just another subtle little way for I-ME-MINE to perpetuate itself by convincing itself how smart it is. This was just another way into making this all another concept. When I-me-mine is thinking it is my arm, my mind, and my thoughts. My God I've said this so many times that I didn't even notice that I said MY over and over again. I and thinking are same. Neither are real.Who is reliant upon these thoughts or memories? Is there a self present that relies on thought or is thought simply occuring within the field of awareness?
Wow. Amazing. I really really did think that I understood this but I didn't until now. Could you please stick with me until we both know for sure that I on the right track. I'm sure you know this- this is the way to get what everyone real wants for their LIFE. At least this is a really good method to get there. Thank you so much for helping me get this far. LOVE.
Re: End Seeking >>Begin Liberation
Hi Brad,
I'm glad you are find our conversation interesting / useful. I certainly am enjoying our dialogue.
For example, I really like your insight / observation that,
To my mind it seems you are very much on the right track but I am more than happy to stick with you and keep pointing you to look at what is really going on in experience until you can really see there is no self at the centre of it to control or regulate it. Life is simply happpening. And how amazing is that? :)
Love
Amrita
I'm glad you are find our conversation interesting / useful. I certainly am enjoying our dialogue.
For example, I really like your insight / observation that,
I think this is a bingo!The I IS THINKING. The I IS THOUGHT. The difference between thinking and what I was thought to function is the difference between separate self and LIFE or WHAT IS. It seemed to simple to be true. Thinking itself is the separation.
For many people this inquiry takes them by surprise that the truth of no-self is really so simple to see when you pay attention to your direct experience of the here and now. We can look more at thinkng and the nature of thought if you feel it would be useful. For now though, I would like you to focus on what experience itself is made up from. What are the components or modalities of your experience? What else is there apart from what is seen, (colours and shapes), what is heard (sounds), what is felt (sensations), smelt or tasted as well as lots of different types of thoughts such as labelling thoughts, interpretations, fantasies, memories etc and the awareness of the sense-bases and thoughts? What else is there apart from our direct immediate experience of life?Yes, Yes. It is the thought itself that has kept me from seeing that thought IS I-me-mine. I was looking to the loss of identity as a thing instead of seeing thought as the illusion itself. The content of memory IS self. When I am lost in thought/memory I am lost in I-me-mine. When I am aware of thought it is the same as being aware of the color, shape, texture, smell and taste of the orange. Yes, Yes.can you say a bit more about how exactly you get lost in thought/memory? Is the self the one who remembers or is the self the content of memory? When you become lost in thought/memory isn't it the case you are becoming identified with the contents of thought rather than being aware of thought itself? Is the self contained within the contents of thought (mental images, words, sounds, etc) or is the self the one who is observing thoughts?
Yes. All there is is sensation coming from the outside in and perception of the outside world in. This reality can only happen NOW. Thinking can only happen NOW. Suffering can only happen NOW. Awareness of emotion, thinking, suffering are no different than awareness of the orange. WOW!Isn't it more the case that there is seeing, hearing, sensations, thinking occurring without a self at the centre to regulate or mediate experience?
To my mind it seems you are very much on the right track but I am more than happy to stick with you and keep pointing you to look at what is really going on in experience until you can really see there is no self at the centre of it to control or regulate it. Life is simply happpening. And how amazing is that? :)
Love
Amrita
Re: End Seeking >>Begin Liberation
That's the thing. Everyone that discovers this must be surprised by this truth. Until discovered it is the ultimate in counterintuitive. If you just told someone the truth without the line of inquiry it's doubtful anyone would catch on. One would fear no self=no thinking=no existence=death. In a way it is a death. The Zen call it deathlessness. The Christians call it life everlasting (heaven).For many people this inquiry takes them by surprise that the truth of no-self is really so simple to see when you pay attention to your direct experience of the here and now.
I spent the day in and out of thought. When not in thought I just watched what was happening. What I've only read as - there is no doer. It seems ridiculous how much time, energy, heartache my separate self wasted in Life. I came in today and my daughter had left a mess in the kitchen. I started to get upset and then -FLIP- the kitchen got cleaned up. She started college this week and was probably studying. Then I thought, "Am I just gonna turn into everyone's doormat? Am I just gonna be a wimp and never stick up for myself?" Returning to awareness I got the answer of no answer. No thought is the best thought. It's just a waste! Whatever is happening is what is. Does that even make any sense? I don't have to have opinions. I don't have to defend myself. I don't have to impress anyone. I don't have to be anxious. Even if I am anxious I can see the emotion as emotion.
I think for now I am going to constantly slip back into I-me-mine. I did some meditation this morning and I kept asking myself, "What is it that brings me back to awareness when I go to thinking?" Can it be that I have it reversed? Is the aware state my natural state and I'm conditioned to be constantly in thought. I can increase the frequency of living in the natural state. I can get to the point where even if I am thinking, having emotion, memory or story I will simply see it as mind thinking. This isn't different than heart beating or lungs breathing. There are not components or modalities of experience. It is all happening in the same field. It just is. It's all verbs and no nouns. It is either IT IS or is happening. It's just plain simple. Maybe I'm confused by what you are saying about components/modalities. The only time I can see an instance for components/modalities is when I slip into the old I-me-mine. In this natural state there is just what is and the experience of here/now.For now though, I would like you to focus on what experience itself is made up from. What are the components or modalities of your experience? What else is there apart from what is seen, (colours and shapes), what is heard (sounds), what is felt (sensations), smelt or tasted as well as lots of different types of thoughts such as labelling thoughts, interpretations, fantasies, memories etc and the awareness of the sense-bases and thoughts? What else is there apart from our direct immediate experience of life?
Re: End Seeking >>Begin Liberation
Hi Brad,
I am travelling today so may not have time to post a fuller response. However, I read your reply and this jumped out at me
In this natural aware state is there any sign of a self? Please keep looking unti it becomes really clear :)
Have a great day
Amrita x
I am travelling today so may not have time to post a fuller response. However, I read your reply and this jumped out at me
In the aware, natural state is it possible to be aware of thinking without getting caught up in the contents of thought? As in, "oh look, there's thinking taking place again" without becoming caught up with or reacting to the contents or thought-stories?I did some meditation this morning and I kept asking myself, "What is it that brings me back to awareness when I go to thinking?" Can it be that I have it reversed? Is the aware state my natural state and I'm conditioned to be constantly in thought. I can increase the frequency of living in the natural state. I can get to the point where even if I am thinking, having emotion, memory or story I will simply see it as mind thinking.
In this natural aware state is there any sign of a self? Please keep looking unti it becomes really clear :)
Have a great day
Amrita x
Re: End Seeking >>Begin Liberation
Thanks again Amrita for taking the time to help me.
I'm also using the awareness to not avoid. When I have thoughts of hurt or emotion I can drop....into awareness and see the reality of the emotion or situation. By observing, I no longer possess MY feelings. They are not mine. I am aware of what they feel like in the body and seem like in mind.
Like I said, this is all new/fresh. I want to be able to drop into awareness frequently. Does this all sound familiar to you Amrita? What is your Life like now that you Live in awareness. Do you pay attention to self very often?
Safe Travels
Brad
It's like turning a switch. When the switch is "ON" I'm in Thinkingland. It seems that this requires my energy of attention. Self is my house in Thinkingland. It is built of conditioned mind, smoke/mirrors/illusion. When mind gets tired and needs a break from think.....switch....OFF. I seem to POP into Awareness or out of Attention. Awareness feels more like a large space than a place. I can have the same thoughts in awareness but I witness them from a slightly different perspective. Then the thoughts lose their solidity/strength and just fizzle out. There have been times in the last couple days where I have been in the flow I've heard about. No attention consuming thoughts. Just watching/doing.In the aware, natural state is it possible to be aware of thinking without getting caught up in the contents of thought? As in, "oh look, there's thinking taking place again" without becoming caught up with or reacting to the contents or thought-stories?
In this natural aware state is there any sign of a self? Please keep looking until it becomes really clear :)
Yes, that's it. When paying attention to thoughts I-me-mine thinks that it has to do something. It has to add to the story of ME. For example, "the next time I see him this.........is what I'm gonna say." That seems like I'm operating in the future but I'm really just referring to the past. As soon as I drop into awareness it's just observing NOW losing all the energy.without becoming caught up with or reacting to the contents or thought
I'm also using the awareness to not avoid. When I have thoughts of hurt or emotion I can drop....into awareness and see the reality of the emotion or situation. By observing, I no longer possess MY feelings. They are not mine. I am aware of what they feel like in the body and seem like in mind.
Like I said, this is all new/fresh. I want to be able to drop into awareness frequently. Does this all sound familiar to you Amrita? What is your Life like now that you Live in awareness. Do you pay attention to self very often?
Safe Travels
Brad
Re: End Seeking >>Begin Liberation
Hey Brad,
This sounds really cool,
It sounds like you are very close to seeing through Brad so I want to encourage you to keep looking in your direct experience for any sign of selfhood or I-ness. Let me ask you first of the confirmation questions which may help you clarify things...
Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
Love
Amrita
This sounds really cool,
Given you can experience these two states "thinkingland" and the natural state of awareness what would you say feels healthier to be in? Does the self in thinkingland feel real?It's like turning a switch. When the switch is "ON" I'm in Thinkingland. It seems that this requires my energy of attention. Self is my house in Thinkingland. It is built of conditioned mind, smoke/mirrors/illusion. When mind gets tired and needs a break from think.....switch....OFF. I seem to POP into Awareness or out of Attention. Awareness feels more like a large space than a place. I can have the same thoughts in awareness but I witness them from a slightly different perspective. Then the thoughts lose their solidity/strength and just fizzle out. There have been times in the last couple days where I have been in the flow I've heard about. No attention consuming thoughts. Just watching/doing.
It sounds like you are very close to seeing through Brad so I want to encourage you to keep looking in your direct experience for any sign of selfhood or I-ness. Let me ask you first of the confirmation questions which may help you clarify things...
Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
Love
Amrita
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