The Gate

Hi Robyn,

Here's what comes up in answer to your question:

What do you mean by personality/character?

I had earlier written: "Without the thought of an I the personality/character keeps operating" ... meaning although it is seen that there is no separate 'self' in control, the body/mind which would be recognised by others in the world as Lulu keeps on saying things, doing things, acting in a way that would look unchanged to the world.

That seemed important because 'Lulu' has a job involving many responsibilities and a whole lot of logistics. Thought kept saying "if there is no doer, these urgent things won't get done and there will be disarray and disaster!!"
When it was noticed that in the absence of I, things still happened, there were thoughts of relief! The doing still happens. Life continues on. In fact it was always happening without the doer anyway. That was just an illusion.

Okay, that was the background. Your questions, however, brought another level of investigation.

Even that (I-less) body/mind Lulu being moved around by Life is only a concept!!
Body and mind are just thoughts. They can't 'do' anything.
So the validity of any act such as even Lulu 'saying things' is thrown into question. Wow.

Is Lulu speaking? It seems like the speaking is coming from this body. But breaking it down into actual experience all that can be known is that there is sensation (thought says it is movement of mouth/lips/tongue) and that speaking (sound) is happening.
Everything that says the sensation and the sound are linked, or that the sound is being created by this particular body, which is identified as a character etc. is thought, thought, thought.
In light of this, attending meetings today, being involved in the usual world of work, has been a trip!
Who is asking and answering questions? Who is saying appropriate things at appropriate times? How is speaking happening? Who is hearing?

So:

Does the label I (Lulu) refer to anything real?

No. It's just a label. Just thought. It's not real at all.


This has been a fascinating day and thoughts are reeling ... alternating clarity and confusion!
Off to sleep now and will see how things look in the morning.

Thank you so very much, Robyn.

With love,
Lulu
X

Lulu,

I will get back to you tomorrow.

Sorry for the delay!

It's a pleasure guiding you.

Love,
Robyn

Hi, Lulu,

Thank you for your answers. Moving forward...

Who is asking and answering questions? Who is saying appropriate things at appropriate times? Who is hearing?

To ask the question, "Who..." automatically implies a doer (subject). Once you see there’s no I, there’s no who either. Just like when you ask a “why” question, you have to come up with a story about reasons.

So, some apt questions could be: “Is there a doer here in this situation?” “While having this experience, is there an I here now?” “What is having this experience?”

It's not real at all.

Lulu, will you please explain in your own words the meaning of the word, "real?"

Body and mind are just thoughts. They can't 'do' anything.
So the validity of any act such as even Lulu 'saying things' is thrown into question.

Lulu, look again ––can you really say that the body is just thoughts? Are there not sensations? Sensations are not thoughts, correct? In the world, living effectively, it is important to recognize (and tend to) the mind and body. :-)

However, a body is no one thing. The word, "body" is similar to the word “university;" "body" is a label assigned to all the sensations, the perceiving mechanism.

Please let me know what you see from here.

With love,
Robyn

Hi Robyn

some apt questions could be: “Is there a doer here in this situation?” “While having this experience, is there an I here now?” “What is having this experience?”

Yes thank you. This resonates.
Increasingly, there is no doer to be found. In looking for what is having the experience, there is no answer. There is just the experience happening.

please explain in your own words the meaning of the word real

Existing in actual experience.
In other words, colour/image, sound, sensation, smell, taste and the experience of thought. But not the content of thought.
This is the fundamental experiential difference that became clear in the exercise looking at the 'real' kitchen and the imagined kitchen that was built of thought.

The body is similar to the word university

Yes, agreed! This is a great analogy.
This is what was meant by saying 'the body is just thoughts and can't do anything' - the 'body' is a mental concept. A concept can't be carrying out any actions.
Yes, sensations are real and are not thoughts. The image/colour of the body parts is real in experience too.
But the label that gives the name 'body' to the amalgam of sensations + image of body parts - that label/concept is only thought and the idea of an 'entity' represented by the body label is also just thought.

The last few days have felt very simple and clear. Exploring is still happening but there's a kind of relaxation, sort of a dropping of effort - the effort of trying to 'grasp' something or to wrestle anything with the 'mind' (which is also a concept like the university).
There is just a kind of unfolding.
It's very peaceful.

Love,
Lulu x

Thought arises to write a little more here. Body reaches for iPad. Or reaching happened, followed by thought. Either way could be true.
Last night a stomach bug hit and today has been spent in bed. Lots of opportunity for looking.

Sensation of pain. Burning, stabbing, throbbing sensations. Thought says these come from the stomach area. But with eyes closed and close attention they are just floating sensations. Their location is not discernible.
Looking for a sufferer, none is found. The sensations are happening but not to a separate self or entity of any kind. Life itself is just arising as sensation. Life itself (which could be called awareness/knowing) is what knows these sensations. Experience is experiencing.
A sense of self shows up sometimes, built of sensation plus thought - "I am feeling bad. I wish this would stop" - but these thoughts are seen as just the habit of creating a self. A sense of self doesn't need to mean a belief in self. And so thoughts arise and go. The sensations remain.
The body moves - rocking itself to ease sharp pain, getting up for water, pulling up blankets for warmth. These are efficient, perfect and automatic with no 'I' involved or required.
Experience comes down to just this right now: only what can be seen, heard, sensed etc from the bed. Thoughts passing by. Sounds that thought says are cars and rain outside. All one interlinked movement of Life.
Weirdly, all is still calm. Nothing feels wrong. This is just what's happening.

Also - viewing 'from the bed' can be clarified a little. In the past week or so there is a feeling that the 'vantage point' has shifted. It's definitely not inside this head or behind these eyes.
Suddenly there was a sense that looking is happening within the whole field of experience that is observable right now. Looking takes in everything that can be seen, including some of the front of the body, and there is nothing outside of this field in direct experience.
Therefore there is no meaning to the term inside. 'Inside' of the body is not observable and 'inside' of the field of vision only has meaning if there is anything not inside.

Well those are my thoughts tonight. Possibly slightly feverish! ;) back to sleep now.
Thank you Robyn.

Lulu
X

Hi, Lulu,

I hope your fever breaks and you get well fast!

I will get back to you soon regarding what you wrote.

Sending love and healing!

Robyn

Hi, Lulu,

How are you doing? I hope you're feeling better.

That's very exciting about the shift that has happened. Great that you have seen through the illusion of inside/outside.

A sense of self shows up sometimes, built of sensation plus thought - "I am feeling bad. I wish this would stop" - but these thoughts are seen as just the habit of creating a self.

Regarding the "sense of self," does it come and go? What informs you that it's a sense of self and not some muscular tension?

Let me know what you see.

Love,
Robyn

Hi Robyn,

Health is improving thank you!
It almost feels like the body needed to be physically stopped to put the focus on this process. (But that's just a story - haha)

Regarding the "sense of self," does it come and go? What informs you that it's a sense of self and not some muscular tension?

Yes it does come and go. And is often connected to tension/contraction in the upper chest or face.
The only thing that informs 'you are selfing again!' Is a thought - and it's seen that this is not a problem.

Yesterday while meditating there was a flash of fear - which hasn't really been experienced so far. Thought said 'you've let your whole self go! What about all your memories, your life so far?? You've lost it all!!!'
There were sensations of fear and worry. An urge to grasp 'self' back again and hold on to 'me'. I like me!! I need me!!

But then thought arose to ask the fear what it was protecting, and if it was really necessary ... that led to a big expansive opening-out feeling, a sense of vastness, and the calm came back.

Today, writing this, it's seen that the fear thoughts and the story about losing me was all just thought passing through.

Love and peace to you, Robyn

Lulu
X

Lulu,

I'm so glad you're on the mend!

Lulu, can you say with a big fat yes that it's clear that separate self is an illusion? Do you have any doubt? If not, there are some final questions. Are you ready for me to send them to you?

Love,
Robyn

Hi Robyn

Yes it does feel like a big fat happy YES.

Thank you so much for walking me through thus far.
I so much appreciate your thoughtful and gentle guidance.

I'm keen to have a go at the final questions!

Xx
Lulu

Hi, Lulu,

I hope you're continuing to feel better. I have been thoroughly enjoying guiding you and I benefit from it, as well. :-)

Here are the questions:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Please answer in full, when ready.

Lots of love,
Robyn

Hi Robyn!
How exciting to be at this point :) !!
I hope this isn't too much of a novel! I've had wonderful fun and even more learnings attempting my answers below.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No there is no separate self and never was. It has always been a mental construct that was taken to be real.
The self, the I, Lulu, me, mine ... all of these terms are just labels, just thoughts.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

Self or "I" is a label for this body/mind unit, and is a useful convention in language. However the mistake occurs when the "self" is taken to be a real separate entity.
The self thought takes hold in childhood when the infant begins to differentiate "me" from world. This is encouraged by our culture and the differentiation is seen as a necessary step in development. The "me" vs "everything else" is the accepted mental map of how things work.
A world view develops in which the "I" is in-here viewing the world out-there. Thoughts say that the "I" needs to be bolstered by worldly gains, achievements and knowledge, and also that it is under threat and must be defended at all costs. (As though the "I" thought is an evolutionary protection mechanism gone rogue!)
This leads to a cutting off from other "selves", from the perceived world at large and from experience - which is a painful perspective because it is in opposition to reality. (Reality being that everything is and has always been united as part of the flow of Life.)
One aspect that has been noticed in recent days is the role of the "self image" in building up the idea of the separate entity.
So many thoughts of things that appeared to happen in the past, and imaginations (thoughts) of what might happen in the projected future, actually centre around mental pictures of the self appearing in different circumstances. It's been amazing to notice how many thoughts have a small Lulu showing up in image form like a movie character, each time subtly solidifying the fiction that there is a "real me" here.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Things feel lighter. Experience of all kinds is sharper, more clear and transparent.
There's generally a feeling of calm and laughter, although anxiety still appeared this morning on waking (tension/energy in stomach and chest + thought labelling 'this is anxiety'). The difference is that the anxiety is seen as sensation+thought, and not as something threatening a real self-entity, and so it hangs around for a while and then it goes, with no problem.

There's also a new feeling that the dimensions of reality have subtly changed. Incredible! The "world" is larger and smaller both at once.
On one hand, there are sensations that are vast, spacious, oceanic.
But at the same time, when I look out at the streets of the city, there's a feeling that "This" is, literally "It"!
The view that is seen - colours of people, cars, lights, a street, buildings, trees, sky - plus the sounds, sensations etc ... this is all there is. The bounds of this field of experience are literally all there is to the universe at that moment. There is nothing "outside" of this experience.
Things/people/places/experiences that are not here right now are actually only thought. Wow.
This is in contrast to the previous exhausting, anxiety-ridden attempts to hold the whole of the imagined world in mind and mentally deal with or process all of its potential issues and dangers at once!!
Oh, that was so tiring, worrying, uncomfortable.
This is small, simple, effortless. :)

And as I round the corner, or enter a building, a new view becomes "it" - and a new version of "Just This" is all there is. Life feels so simple when viewed this way! And it was always available, just by turning off the thoughts and relaxing. (Thoughts aren't "off" for good of course. They still come and go, and have their uses, but they are seen for what they are.)
Suddenly, mindfulness practices have a new meaning. It's very practical and literal - the arisings of the moment are in fact the only reality.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

- The exercises from Ilona's books around what is real and not real were key. (The kitchen and the unicorn! haha. Sounds like a sequel to The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe.)
- Then there was the phrase that resonated from this forum: What makes awareness personal? It was seen that there is nothing that makes this so, and then the idea that "I" was the witness dissolved as well.
- And, when the "I" had significantly weakened but there were still beliefs around "Lulu" as an entity in the world, your question Robyn: "What do you mean by the personality/character?", was another eye-opener! Thank you for that :)
- In the past few days, stopping, letting go of effort and letting the process happen also seems to have been important. It feels like there is more of this to do now. Just letting everything settle.

5) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

All of these are just concepts. They do not actually happen in reality.
There's no knowing what makes things happen or how. Life just flows. Happenings occur.
There is nobody here to be responsible for anything.

For example - today I needed to get to an appointment at a certain time. A thought arose that I had time to walk there. Another thought said I could take a taxi.
Thoughts were "discussing" the benefits of each option and the winning thought was saying "yes, walk. It will be good to move through the streets and enjoy that fun new perspective that we've been playing with".
Just as that "decision" was made it was noticed that body had gone ahead, picked up the phone and pressed the button on the app to call a taxi! Laughter!

It's noticed now how often an action will be taken and thought will pop up claiming "free will" or "doership" or "decision-making" just after the event.

6) Anything to add?

Just heartfelt thanks to you Robyn and to all of LU, Ilona and Elena for the amazing generosity and kindness of this community.
What a wonderful movement! What a gift!
An aspect I haven't gone into above is the deep feeling of love that permeates everything now. So much love for the "world".
So much love for LU. So much love for "us" all! :)

xx
Lulu

Hi, Lulu,

Great answers overall, showing full clarity.

Things feel lighter. Experience of all kinds is sharper, more clear and transparent.
There's generally a feeling of calm and laughter, although anxiety still appeared this morning on waking (tension/energy in stomach and chest + thought labelling 'this is anxiety'). The difference is that the anxiety is seen as sensation+thought, and not as something threatening a real self-entity, and so it hangs around for a while and then it goes, with no problem.

Wonderful!

However, one question for you. You wrote:

The bounds of this field of experience are literally all there is to the universe at that moment.

Lulu, please tell me, what are the bounds of the field? Where are they?

Let me know what you see.

Love,
Robyn

Hi Robyn,

Writing this I was meaning to describe the "apparent" limits of the visual field at a given moment - as in: what can be seen is all that is. This applies also to "what is heard is all that is", "what is experienced is all that is".
But of course there are no actual boundaries or limits at all! How freeing! :)

Xx
Lulu