Goodbye self!

[Kelly17]

Hi Christina,

Hope you had a wonderful weekend!

Thanks for suggesting the tea making exercise. You asked me to observe how I decide to do the next thing, is it a choice. My experience: some things felt like decisions while others did not. Deciding what to make (tea infusion with fresh ginger root) felt like a choice. But the actions involved in actually making it where totally automatic (like filling the kettle with water, etc), just doing, not deciding.

I continued to watch my experience throughout the weekend. Many things were totally automatic, just doing. Things that felt like decisions were things that were not routine. In those times it felt like higher level processing was going on to come to a conclusion that translated to action. (For example, 'deciding' if we wanted to have guests over for dinner on Saturday.)

The overall experience was like watching a computer program. Some tasks were so routine as to go unnoticed, without thought, and some required deduction. The things that required deduction seem to feel like a 'choice'. But I'm not sure - that could just be remnants of an illusion left over from a lifetime of self-centeredness. The brain is busy, constantly labelling and sorting experience. In total, it felt as if my brain was guiding me through learned patterns of behaviour, or learned skills like chopping the ginger, or past likes and dislikes, etc, and then I would just act accordingly.

You also asked about how I try not to apply thoughts to a self concept - how does this work. I noticed two different patterns. One when conscious awareness is in the present moment. In these cases I experience thoughts/labelling as floating clouds. They don't seem to touch me. The other is when I'm busy or distracted, and thoughts/labels/judgements will stick, and create an emotional response. Eventually awareness is regained and then I/something 'decides' (??) to let go of the thoughts/emotions. With the letting go there is a rush of energy through the body and peace.

Thanks again Christina! :)

Best,
Kelly

[Flicki]

Hello Kelly!

Thanks for your reply!

Thanks for suggesting the tea making exercise. You asked me to observe how I decide to do the next thing, is it a choice. My experience: some things felt like decisions while others did not. Deciding what to make (tea infusion with fresh ginger root) felt like a choice. But the actions involved in actually making it where totally automatic (like filling the kettle with water, etc), just doing, not deciding.

Yes, the body is totally able to make some tea without a 'self' that claims it did that! The question that remains though is... is there really a choice? Or rather: Is there something like free will? Because of course there is a 'choice' in the sense that you could have ginger root or peppermint tea. But does that mean there is somebody taking a choice? How is a decision taken?

I continued to watch my experience throughout the weekend. Many things were totally automatic, just doing. Things that felt like decisions were things that were not routine. In those times it felt like higher level processing was going on to come to a conclusion that translated to action. (For example, 'deciding' if we wanted to have guests over for dinner on Saturday.)

What do you mean by 'higher level processing'? Thinking?

The overall experience was like watching a computer program. Some tasks were so routine as to go unnoticed, without thought, and some required deduction. The things that required deduction seem to feel like a 'choice'. But I'm not sure - that could just be remnants of an illusion left over from a lifetime of self-centeredness. The brain is busy, constantly labelling and sorting experience. In total, it felt as if my brain was guiding me through learned patterns of behaviour, or learned skills like chopping the ginger, or past likes and dislikes, etc, and then I would just act accordingly.

That last part sounds pretty hypothetic! I don't know about you, but I cannot feel the brain.

The question that remains, AGAIN, is still the same as above. HOW are decisions made? Is there a 'doer' behind the decisions? Please watch this very closely: Whatever you do today, is there a 'self' doing it? What exactly is happening? Is there anything else but... say... 'hand moves', 'thought arises', 'seeing green'...? Or is there somebody taking the decision as in 'I am moving my hand', 'I am having a thought', 'I am seeing something green'? Which is true? And please don't think about it, look!

You also asked about how I try not to apply thoughts to a self concept - how does this work. I noticed two different patterns. One when conscious awareness is in the present moment. In these cases I experience thoughts/labelling as floating clouds. They don't seem to touch me. The other is when I'm busy or distracted, and thoughts/labels/judgements will stick, and create an emotional response. Eventually awareness is regained and then I/something 'decides' (??) to let go of the thoughts/emotions. With the letting go there is a rush of energy through the body and peace.

In the first scenario, is there a 'me' beneath the thoughts that can't be touched? How is that possible? Where does the 'me' go in the second scenario? And is there no awareness when you're busy or distracted? Where does awareness go when you 'lose' it before you 'regain' it? Does it go anywhere at all?

Questions upon questions! :-)

So far,
Christina

[Kelly17]

Hi Christina,

Thanks for the quick reply :)

To answer your question, there is no sense of self needed in terms of 'ownership' in order to do things, or think things. Things just happen. A bird is seen out the window - it's just 'seeing bird'. Or picking up a pen, is just 'picking up pen.'

But yet I am stuck in answering your question about awareness. In the first instance, there is no me, you're right, just awareness. But in the second instance, there does seem to be a 'me' anchoring the exchange between awareness and body/mind.

So you see, there is a clinging to me - as in: "I am stuck". There really shouldn't be a 'me' there to be stuck. Yet there is a comparison to your experience of the world, etc, to mine and I'm attributing this to 'myself' as failure to see, failure to experience openness.

And there is also confusion as to who is 'the doer' when you ask that question. The entity making the tea is the body called 'Kelly' so in that sense the body must be the doer.

So far, looking is not seeing. Feeling frustrated.

Thanks for your patience.

Best,
Kelly

[Flicki]

Hello again, Kelly! :-)

Thanks for the quick reply :)

Ah, yes, this is taking up speed! :-)

To answer your question, there is no sense of self needed in terms of 'ownership' in order to do things, or think things. Things just happen. A bird is seen out the window - it's just 'seeing bird'. Or picking up a pen, is just 'picking up pen.'

Absolutely true! It sounds if you can see this clearly now - am I right or are there any doubts or questions left?

But yet I am stuck in answering your question about awareness. In the first instance, there is no me, you're right, just awareness. But in the second instance, there does seem to be a 'me' anchoring the exchange between awareness and body/mind.

Well, but where does this 'me' come from all of a sudden? You say it wasn't there before. And now it is! How does it suddenly materialise out of nowhere? Or better asked: What is it made of?

And is awareness ever really gone, even in the second example? Isn't it just... effortlessly there? You don't have to do or be or have anything in order for awareness to be there. It just IS! For awareness it doesn't matter at all if it's aware of drowsiness or tiredness or clarity or happiness or a bird flying by or sunset or strawberry macarons. It's simply aware of whatever happens!

So you see, there is a clinging to me - as in: "I am stuck". There really shouldn't be a 'me' there to be stuck. Yet there is a comparison to your experience of the world, etc, to mine and I'm attributing this to 'myself' as failure to see, failure to experience openness.

The question is... why do you expect there to be always openness or experience of openness? Isn't that a bit unrealistic? It's like expecting the sky to never have clouds! You probably wouldn't say that it is the sky's failure if there are clouds, would you? So why is it a failure then to not experience openness?

And there is also confusion as to who is 'the doer' when you ask that question. The entity making the tea is the body called 'Kelly' so in that sense the body must be the doer.

Yes, the body made some tea, based on former experience of making tea. But did the body also decide that the tea was made? Or which tea was made? Again: Where did the decision come from?

So far, looking is not seeing. Feeling frustrated.

Ah, but you're doing really and seriously great! Then again, frustration can be a great source for motivation, so I'm not going to comfort you too much now! ;-)

So far,
Christina

[Kelly17]

Hi Christina!

Thanks for the encouragement :)

I've been looking at where decisions come from. Most things just happen - no sense of a decision being made at all. Other times, when there is a distinct choice, like deciding which tea: I remember having a thought that I had not had ginger in awhile and had some ginger root in the fridge, that it would require a few steps to brew, which would fit your instructions to make a beverage on the complicated side. After the thoughts, the body just acted. There was no: "I've decided to have ginger tea". Was just thoughts then an action.

And then sometimes, like when in a natural environment like a park or beach, there is nothing else there really, except awareness and connection to surroundings. Sort of like in meditation. The awareness is there, and there are no conscious 'decisions'.

The opposite of that is at work, where there are constant, clear decisions that must be made, along with analysis of those decisions, and communicating that analysis to others. What is doing this, what is deciding? Where does the decision come from? There are thoughts and deductions from the mind, but the decision comes from the area around the heart. The decision can be physically felt there. Hard to explain. Not sure what that is."I" would say thoughts are where decisions come from, but thoughts can't decide. Decision is action. Very confusing. Not seeing clearly what is deciding.

The other question you asked was why does a sense of 'me' creep in when there is a conscious letting go of thoughts or emotions from the body/mind. You asked: what is it made of? Perhaps it's made of thoughts about thoughts, and that triggers the action of letting go. But it seems like "I" am doing this, making a decision to let go. There is a clear moment of decision, coming from 'me'. Not sure why this is different. It's made of thoughts but feels like 'me'.

So there is some experience of no self, just thinking and doing, and maybe a beginning of an acceptance that there is no real 'deciding' happening. But a lingering sense of 'me' remains when considering 'spiritual' (for lack of a better word) matters, like letting go of negative thoughts and re-centering into awareness. There is a sense that these matters are too profound for there not to be a 'me', like this is on a higher layer of 'self' that blends with awareness - it floats above the body and mind and day-to-day banality of work and brushing teeth, etc.

Sorry this is so long.

A question: the body/mind Kelly is still feeling ownership of physical possessions (like 'my' phone). Does this go away ever?

Thanks again.

Best,
Kelly

[Flicki]

Hi there, Kelly!

I've been looking at where decisions come from. Most things just happen - no sense of a decision being made at all. Other times, when there is a distinct choice, like deciding which tea: I remember having a thought that I had not had ginger in awhile and had some ginger root in the fridge, that it would require a few steps to brew, which would fit your instructions to make a beverage on the complicated side. After the thoughts, the body just acted. There was no: "I've decided to have ginger tea". Was just thoughts then an action.

Yes, decisions are just thoughts!

And then sometimes, like when in a natural environment like a park or beach, there is nothing else there really, except awareness and connection to surroundings. Sort of like in meditation. The awareness is there, and there are no conscious 'decisions'.

Well, in that situation there is nothing to be decided and generally no need for thoughts. :-)

The opposite of that is at work, where there are constant, clear decisions that must be made, along with analysis of those decisions, and communicating that analysis to others. What is doing this, what is deciding? Where does the decision come from? There are thoughts and deductions from the mind, but the decision comes from the area around the heart. The decision can be physically felt there. Hard to explain. Not sure what that is."I" would say thoughts are where decisions come from, but thoughts can't decide. Decision is action. Very confusing. Not seeing clearly what is deciding.

Hm, you said before that you don't know where thoughts come from. If decisions are thoughts, as you said above, it's just logical that you won't know where decisions come from either. Thoughts come and go. Of course what happens most of the time is not that first 'seeing' occurs, then 'feeling', then 'thinking' - one by one - but they often arise together or in quick succession, often causing each other... which is exactly what makes the whole thing seem so complicated! But in truth it's quite simple. A thought comes up and with it arises a sensation in the body, as in your example above... and this happens again and again, pretty much all of the time! But all of this does not mean there is an 'I' that thinks or an 'I' that senses. You already saw that in 'easy environments'. This basic truth doesn't change because things happen more quickly. There is just thoughts and sensation, as you pretty much said yesterday when you said

Things just happen. A bird is seen out the window - it's just 'seeing bird'. Or picking up a pen, is just 'picking up pen.'

Which reminds me that I stumbled about this a bit when reading it again. You are really close there, but you can even go a step further into: seeing (no matter what is seen) - tactile sensation + seeing (no matter what is felt and seen). Can you see the difference? Can you explain it? Which one feels more true?

The other question you asked was why does a sense of 'me' creep in when there is a conscious letting go of thoughts or emotions from the body/mind. You asked: what is it made of? Perhaps it's made of thoughts about thoughts, and that triggers the action of letting go.

Exactly, 'me' is just another thought! Or maybe it's 'thought + sensation'. You will know.

But it seems like "I" am doing this, making a decision to let go. There is a clear moment of decision, coming from 'me'. Not sure why this is different. It's made of thoughts but feels like 'me'.

Yes, but what is different here, compared to other decisions? Or to stay with what I just said: What sensation is labeled 'I'? Can you explore that a little further?

So there is some experience of no self, just thinking and doing, and maybe a beginning of an acceptance that there is no real 'deciding' happening.

This sort of brings us to a new point here... can you experience something that is not there?

But a lingering sense of 'me' remains when considering 'spiritual' (for lack of a better word) matters, like letting go of negative thoughts and re-centering into awareness.

What is 'letting go of negative thoughts'? Who decides what is negative? Who can let go? Isn't it rather that thoughts come and go... and there is no one, no instance that can control them? And please look very closely: can you ever find a moment when there is no awareness? Isn't it always there? Because if that is true, why would there be any need for 're-centering' into it? Does awareness have a center?

There is a sense that these matters are too profound for there not to be a 'me', like this is on a higher layer of 'self' that blends with awareness - it floats above the body and mind and day-to-day banality of work and brushing teeth, etc.

Isn't it just an idea as well? What's so profound about it? Isn't THAT just an idea as well? Seriously, is there really a difference in quality between a thought occurring (like "This is profound!") and a sensation (like "wet minty brush in mouth")? Or is that just another thought?

A question: the body/mind Kelly is still feeling ownership of physical possessions (like 'my' phone). Does this go away ever?

Well, I cannot know that. If this process was as easy as "If A... then B", we probably both wouldn't be here! :-) However, chances are - logically - that if there is no sense of an owner, there will be less attachment. But that doesn't mean you won't recognise your toothbrush anymore or wear someone else's underwear... it just means things don't seem as important.

Anyway, so much for today!
So far,
Christina

[Kelly17]

Hi Christina,

Very interesting point about sensation. Assuming that by 'seeing' you mean vision: seeing + tactile sensation feels more true than seeing alone. There is a solidity to tactile experience, whereas vision is shifty and variable (for example, lighting can change perception of an object or space).

Thought + sensation explains a lot of why something feels like 'me' when it's really not. It's the experiences with the combination of thought and sensations that have me confused. Things are becoming clearer.

You ask: what sensation is labelled "I"? It's the feeling around the heart, like when a decision is made, or an emotion runs through. That is the anchor of the "I".

The 'letting go of negative thoughts' explanation wasn't quite right. Thanks for your patience with this one. You're right in that the awareness just watches, and doesn't go anywhere. It's always there. And there is no centre. (Centring- that's just a turn of phrase, not sure where it's coming from actually, now that we are looking at it!) It's more like letting go of sensation. For example, the process is more like: something happens, like something is spilled on my best shirt, then comes uncomfortable sensation and thoughts, and then "I" relax and release them. Energy then runs through the body. The thought that tells me to relax and release - that's what has felt like 'me' because it's connected to sensation. And it's sort of meta - a thought about thoughts. Sensation + meta thought is probably the 'me' formula.

You ask if there is a difference in quality between a thought and sensation. No.

And last for tonight - you ask if I can experience something that is not there (when I said 'there is some experience of no self'). That was a reference to all of this direct experience with you, shedding some light - there is change - but still feeling that it's not totally sinking in. So to answer your question, "i" am obviously experiencing thoughts of 'me' still!

Thank you for your excellent guidance :)

Best,
Kelly

[Flicki]

Hello, Kelly!

Very interesting point about sensation. Assuming that by 'seeing' you mean vision:

I do.

seeing + tactile sensation feels more true than seeing alone. There is a solidity to tactile experience, whereas vision is shifty and variable (for example, lighting can change perception of an object or space).

You are right about that. Up to a certain point, the more there is to be perceived, the more you get drawn in: it's easy to see that when watching a movie. I must admit that the question was meant differently though: I wanted to ask if you can feel a difference between "A bird is seen outside the window" and "There is seeing". Or "picking up a pen" and "There is seeing and tactile sensation". Can you? And which of these feels closer to truth?

You ask: what sensation is labelled "I"? It's the feeling around the heart, like when a decision is made, or an emotion runs through. That is the anchor of the "I".

Next time it turns up, can you look closely at that feeling again? What exactly does it feel like? What exactly is it that makes this feeling so distinguished from others that you would label it 'I' instead of just 'sensation'? What about it leads to this idea that there is an 'I'?

It's more like letting go of sensation. For example, the process is more like: something happens, like something is spilled on my best shirt, then comes uncomfortable sensation and thoughts, and then "I" relax and release them. Energy then runs through the body. The thought that tells me to relax and release - that's what has felt like 'me' because it's connected to sensation. And it's sort of meta - a thought about thoughts. Sensation + meta thought is probably the 'me' formula.

The spilling is a good example. But you can break it down even more: There is the spilling (= vision + probably tactile sensation), followed by thoughts ("I am so clumsy!"/"That's my favourite shirt!"/"Eeek, now I am soaked in spinach smoothie, I probably look like the Incredible Hulk!"/...), immediately followed by sensation and more thoughts (e.g. "I never get anything right"/bodily sensations that are labeled as disgust (spinach) or bemusement or panic (shirt was so expensive/no spare shirt/...). What happens can seem so complicated, but you can break down every situation into awareness (= the stage) + thoughts + sensation (= the play). On that level it does not matter what a thought is about. It is just a thought. It doesn't matter what the sensation is. It is just a sensation. That's why I'm really interested now how you answer the last set of questions above about what is special about this one sensation around the heart area!

And last for tonight - you ask if I can experience something that is not there (when I said 'there is some experience of no self'). That was a reference to all of this direct experience with you, shedding some light - there is change - but still feeling that it's not totally sinking in. So to answer your question, "i" am obviously experiencing thoughts of 'me' still!

Well, it is unlikely that there ever won't be any thoughts of a 'me' or an 'I'. They are a habit - and unlikely a new one. Besides, the idea of a self isn't entirely unuseful, it is quite helpful in everyday life. The question is just: Do you believe everything you think? Do you believe in all those ideas that come through the mind? You've looked for the self in a lot of places, but you never found one. Something that doesn't exist cannot be seen, not experienced. Is there anywhere such a thing as a self?

So far,
Christina

[Kelly17]

Hi Christina!

You ask: can I feel a difference between "a bird is seen outside" and there is seeing, or "picking up a pen" and there is seeing plus tactile sensation. Which feels closer to the truth? Now that I really look at it closely, there isn't much difference. One doesn't feel more true than the other.

What distinguishes the heart sensation from other sensations? What leads to the idea of an "I" in that area? The answer is that the heart sensation is where emotional pain lives, how it is expressed and felt. The defining experience of 'my' life was losing 'my' young husband - there was excruciating yet grounding emotional pain during that time. When he died, there was an awakening, a beginning of awareness of life. Perhaps there are now mental or physical associations between the heart feeling/emotional pain and the idea of awareness that make it harder to accept that it's just a sensation and thoughts/ideas, the same as making tea and picking up pens.

Thanks for the stage and play analogy, that makes a lot of sense! Agree with all of that.

And thanks also for the note about the idea of self being useful in everyday life. That hasn't been entirely clear - it's so engrained in our language and social structure. Can't see how it can be avoided entirely.

Your final question was, do I believe everything I think, all of the ideas that float through the mind? Thankfully, no! Is there anywhere such a thing as self? No, but this is causing a sensation of heart pain. There are no moments of joy or laughter in the realisation. That is why there is still doubt that "I" see.

Thanks so much Christina.

Best,
Kelly

[Kelly17]

Hi Christina,

Just an update: With some time to sit with this, the sadness is gone. Feeling light and fine with everything, actually.

Best,
Kelly

[Flicki]

Hi Kelly!

Thanks for both messages. Yes, all of the phenomena we talked about (5 senses + thinking) come and go. Nothing is stable... as you must know well! If anything new arises in that area you described though, please just stay with it. It IS just a sensation. Not claiming ownership doesn't mean there is no love, no grief, no sadness. It doesn't mean you forget!

Perhaps there are now mental or physical associations between the heart feeling/emotional pain and the idea of awareness that make it harder to accept that it's just a sensation and thoughts/ideas, the same as making tea and picking up pens.

Has that changed, now that the acuteness of the feeling has subsided?

Is there anywhere such a thing as self? No, but this is causing a sensation of heart pain. There are no moments of joy or laughter in the realisation. That is why there is still doubt that "I" see.

Well, what do you expect is going to happen if you understand the nature of self? Why would there be joy or laughter? What do you imagine that seeing would be like? And is there still pain when you scan thoughts and sensation again and see no self?

So far!
Christina

[Kelly17]

Hi Christina,

Yes, the feeling has changed now that the acuteness has passed. It was disturbing but enlightening to realise that the last threads of self were linked to emotional pain. Thanks for helping to peel back the layers.

Why did I expect joy or laughter? What did I expect? Maybe more of an ah-ha moment, and the sort of joy and serenity that comes from seeing clearly, like finding the right word in a crossword. Instead there was pain, probably linked to the process described above, but it passed.

Now it's just sort of placid.

:)

Best,
Kelly

[Flicki]

Hello, Kelly!

Yes, the feeling has changed now that the acuteness has passed. It was disturbing but enlightening to realise that the last threads of self were linked to emotional pain.

I'm noticing you've changed to the past tense now! :-)

Why did I expect joy or laughter? What did I expect? Maybe more of an ah-ha moment, and the sort of joy and serenity that comes from seeing clearly, like finding the right word in a crossword. Instead there was pain, probably linked to the process described above, but it passed.

Now it's just sort of placid.

I really like the crossword analogy! Of course solving a really easy puzzle like "THERE I_ NO _ELF" won't give you the same rush as the one you get from one that has just the right difficulty... . ;-)

Anyway, could you summarise once more what your understanding of the 'I' is now?

And do you have the feeling that we have covered everything you came here for - or is there something else?

So far!
Christina

[Kelly17]

Hi Christina!

Ha - funny about the puzzle. Indeed, point taken.

A summary of "I":

We have a body, which contains a brain, that powers the 'mind'. The mind produces thoughts, and the body perceives physical sensations. Thoughts and sensations and bodily functions just happen, they are not controlled or owned by 'me'. There is no 'me'. There is intelligence there that should be respected, but the body/mind system is self-operating. Why do we take a collection of thoughts and sensations and build an illusion called "I", and give that illusion credit for the operation of the body/mind? Not sure if it's cultural (taught) or innate. It can be useful for communication and societal organisation, which probably reinforces and sustains the collective illusion.

When "I" came here, there was a good understanding that thoughts are just thoughts, not "me". However there was a lingering feeling that "I" existed. Christina, through direct experience you helped identify that the feeling of 'me' was linked to a particularly strong emotion (and the sensation of that emotion). Once that was exposed the remaining links to 'self' dissolved. Direct experience also helped reveal that decisions are just thoughts about thoughts - this removed a lingering feeling of agency and control that powered the illusion.

So perhaps we've covered everything?

:)

[Flicki]

Hi Kelly!

Thanks for your reply. I would like to ask you some final questions to make sure everything is really clear. Stay as close to your experience as you can, please! That will also make sure you won't have to just repeat what you just said! :)

Ready? Here we go!

1)Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
6) Anything to add?

So far,
Christina