Looking for a guide

[Doerian]

Hi Ratnapani,

Such interesting questions!
Perhaps I'll find time this evening, to answer them.
I'm leaving very early tomorrow morning on MBCL training/retreat.
Don't know if we'll be allowed on the internet.
If not I will be in silence until Thursday next week.

xx Doerian

[ratnapani]

Hi Doerian,

You will have plenty of time to ponder the questions !

I have been on retreat with MBCL people and we had a lot in common particularly seeing our thought stories and not buying into them.

What do you think is the biggest story of all ? The one that needs all the others to maintain itself ?

I hope you have a great time. I'll just wait to see if you can post.

Ratnapani xx

[Doerian]

Hi Ratnapani,

Internet and just teacher training no silence or retreat procedures but very tired will keep it short today.

Without the 'I' thoughts where was 'I' ?
You felt 'liberated' without 'I' thoughts, is it ever more than a thought?

Decisions were made - was anyone making them ?

Choices were made - was anybody making them ?

No I nowhere wihout thoughts. I is thought. Construct/belief.

'I' thoughts, is it ever more than a though

What is ever more than a thought, 'feeling liberated?' Don't understand your question.

If there's no I there's no decision maker that's weird!
Same for choices, no I no chooser. Huh?
This is even more weird.
So strange Who/what wants to see, wants to know, wants to be guided?
Please explain.

xx Doerian

[Doerian]

Hi Ratnapani,

Saw your other post too.
Thank you for wishing me a great training. It was already quite inspiring today.
And beautiful surroundings!

What do you think is the biggest story of all ? The one that needs all the others to maintain itself ?

Good question, and no idea!
The biggest story is 'I' for now but perhaps there's more?
But I'm so used to I that thoughts feelings emotions are almost immediately identified with I, then I get lost in stories again at least thats what I think haha. In experience of senses there's just awareness?!

Bye xx Doerian

[ratnapani]

Hi Doerian,

I thought I'd give you a day to settle in to the training and get over your tiredness.

No I nowhere wihout thoughts. I is thought. Construct/belief.

Well that is the right answer but we need you to really see it.
You need to look 'inside' at your experience. When there is awareness without 'I' thoughts look , is there a self anywhere to be found ?

I said

You felt 'liberated' without 'I' thoughts, is it ever more than a thought?

You said

What is ever more than a thought, 'feeling liberated?' Don't understand your question.

I was not clear, sorry. I didn't mean is 'liberated' ever more than a thought, I meant is I ever more than a thought? (again!)
Whether feeling 'liberated' or tied up in thought - look- under the satisfactory or the unsatisfactory is there a separate self doing the experience ?
Look with quiet curiosity.

If there's no I there's no decision maker that's weird!
Same for choices, no I no chooser. Huh?
This is even more weird.
So strange Who/what wants to see, wants to know, wants to be guided?
Please explain.

No I won't explain !

Please look for the 'chooser'. When a choice is made can you catch him doing it?'
Who does want to see ? Is there an 'entity' outside of causes and conditions that wants to see?
( and please don't let wanting to see get in the way of looking)
Who wants to know ? Never mind knowing, you won't know anything in the sense of understanding. You will know when you see!

A little exercise : Sitting quietly, raise an arm, either one ,and watch it rising.
Who decided to raise the arm? Who raised it ?
Look carefully for a 'separate' decider or raiser.

The biggest story is 'I' for now but perhaps there's more?
But I'm so used to I that thoughts feelings emotions are almost immediately identified with I, then I get lost in stories again at least thats what I think haha. In experience of senses there's just awareness?!

No there's no more, I is the big story - a perfect fairy tale.

Yes, that's what we do, we identify in double quick time - that's a great observation for this enquiry.
Thoughts, feelings and emotions are sensations -vedana in Buddhist speak.
Be aware of them arising, isn't that what mindfulness is all about?, and look to see if there is anything actually there to which they stick. Or are they just arisings in there own right ? Is there a need to identify, really, is there?

In experience of the physical senses it is easier to be out of thought and in the body so awareness with minimum me !
(That is If by 'just awareness' you mean without identifying rather than something more metaphysical. And we don't need any of that here !)
Do the other sensations need to be any different to that ?
Whether they register as pleasant or unpleasant are they more than what they are ? Is there anything actually there in your experience of all the senses that is an 'I'. Can you point to it, see it. smell it or touch it ?

I hope the training continues to be inspiring and that the weather ( I am English) allows you to enjoy the beautiful surroundings.

Ratnapani xx

[Doerian]

Hi Ratnapani,

Of course you wont explain!
And yes the seeing is not really there because I still want to rely on the known, the I.

Doing your exercise with raising. The arm. It's it even moves before there has been some sort of command?!
No chooser.
Scares me.
Back to I again.
But I'll continue.
Please be patient.
Will be back soon.

Thank you for letting me settle in.
The program/training is beautiful but also intense in hours, effects and content.
Doing a short presentation about 'backdraft' tomorrow.
Preparing.
Will be back soon.

Thanks for your honesty as well, very helpful although not easy because I have to look.
There's some resistance still because of fear.

xx doerian

[ratnapani]

Hi Doerian,

Take your time with the looking, do be gentle but very curious, feel free to report back when you can.

The arm. It's it even moves before there has been some sort of command?!
No chooser.

Well observed . No chooser - isn't that great - so much less strain and effort in being alive.

Scares me.
Back to I again.

As we said, fear is a good sign that you are looking well. It is trying to protect you, please thank it and ask what it is protecting you from.
There will still be a 'you' that functions as it does now. Just without the spoiled child that is the illusory self !

I'm glad the program is so beautiful and good luck with the presentation.
We will both need to be patient and persistent - no demands, nothing to be achieved.

Ratnapani xx

[Doerian]

Hi Ratnapani,

I'm back again after a beautiful but intensive week.

feel free to report back when you can.

Thank you!

do be gentle but very curious

What a lovely instruction.

No chooser - isn't that great - so much less strain and effort in being alive.

Perhaps this sounds strange. But experience lately being more in a sort of flow and fighting less situations or even fighting less thoughts and emotions. Giving them more space to arise and vanish. Looking, experience and often laughing as if there's lightness and more space around what's occurring. Still emotions like irritation or fear arise but less anger more kindness.
this could also be due to the training.

As we said, fear is a good sign that you are looking well.

Don't recall you saying this, but helpful. I remember to be kind with the fear.

It is trying to protect you, please thank it and ask what it is protecting you from.

I did. Didn't get a clear answer just tingling and a warm feeling, kind emotion, soft. Protecting me from, overwhelm by vastness of what is…? Protecting for losing the I to hold on to? This answer just came up. To get used to no-I? Fear is anyways kinder than before and far less pushy, more an ally than an enemy.

It's so funny to see myself typing without commanding just letting it happen sort of, freeing and funny. If I don't cling to thinking to much it just happens more and lightens up. First time I experience this in bright daylight. Feels real and nice and home and open and as you wrote, without a spoiled child in the background somewhere nagging about whatever.
Less n thought more into experience. Getting more curious.

Presentation went very well.
Had a terrible day today though. Really awful, sort of backdraft after this kind and unified compassionate week. Finding it very difficult to be alone (no partner for already a very long time). It's lonely and it's a thought but still awful.

Have a good rest or a nice night,
Doerianxx

[ratnapani]

Hi Doerian,
Welcome back - I've missed you.
I'm glad the course went so well.

Perhaps this sounds strange. But experience lately being more in a sort of flow and fighting less situations or even fighting less thoughts and emotions. Giving them more space to arise and vanish. Looking, experience and often laughing as if there's lightness and more space around what's occurring.

Not strange at all. Not identifying with experience so much, having space around it, is all part of seeing the illusion. And, yes, I'm sure the training has contributed to that.

Still emotions like irritation or fear arise but less anger more kindness.

Such emotions will probably still arise when the illusion is seen for sure but meanwhile ask 'are they 'me' are they mine ?'
Also the pleasant aspects 'Are they me, are they mine?'
'I' dentification is where the suffering occurs.

Protecting for losing the I to hold on to? This answer just came up. To get used to no-I? Fear is anyways kinder than before and far less pushy, more an ally than an enemy.

Good - follow the fear - if it arises allow yourself to be with the experience and LOOK,(gently!); what is 'under' it that needs protecting ?

It's so funny to see myself typing without commanding just letting it happen sort of, freeing and funny.

Nice one, what did you say about the idea of 'no choice' being weird? Where is the chooser now? Can you spot choosing anywhere in your experience.
I know the arm raising exercise made an impression but keep checking !

If I don't cling to thinking to much it just happens more and lightens up.

Good, but don't make thinking into a baddy, it happens like other sensations happen.
More importantly, is there 'a thinker' thinking the thoughts?
Can you look from within the body, be aware of thoughts and wait to spot a thinker?
This is probably best done for brief periods, thus no pressure, but regularly.

Less n thought more into experience. Getting more curious.

Great!

Had a terrible day today though. Really awful, sort of backdraft after this kind and unified compassionate week.

Backdraft is a good term for it. I sometimes feel that 'my system' has been stretched beyond the level of positivity or reality it can handle and snaps back to something more familiar or worse. Our usual identity has been threatened.

Finding it very difficult to be alone (no partner for already a very long time). It's lonely and it's a thought but still awful.

Your suffering is the best place to look.' I' makes pain or discomfort into suffering.

Can you sit with feelings of loneliness and ask is this 'me', is this mine ?
There are feelings, do they belong to a me ? What if there were just feelings occurring ?
And /or who is telling the story of how bad it is to not have a partner ?

I hope this doesn't sound like a lack of compassion but the end of illusion (all illusion) is the end of suffering.

Ratnapani xx

[ratnapani]

Hi again,
I forgot to say that I do sympathise with the come down that can occur after a course or retreat. After a week in the warm bath
of other people and positive emotion, communication and uplifted states coming home can be really hard. I've experienced that myself often. xx

[Doerian]

Hi Ratnapani,

No worries. You weren't unkind at all. And thank you for sharing that you know this after retreat feeling as well from your own experience. Comforting.

It lasted approx. a day of really difficult painful feeling.

'Are they me, are they mine?'
'I' dentification is where the suffering occurs.

Yes it does!

Good - follow the fear - if it arises allow yourself to be with the experience and LOOK,(gently!); what is 'under' it that needs protecting ?

Had two trainings today and quality time with daughter. Will look into this tomorrow for sure.

Good, but don't make thinking into a baddy, it happens like other sensations happen.

Haha I wont, promise!
I didn't mean thought so much but especially analyzing. When I analyze I get lost in thought. Back to experience curiosity arises again and also the non-I experience/awareness.

Can you look from within the body, be aware of thoughts and wait to spot a thinker?
This is probably best done for brief periods, thus no pressure, but regularly.

Doing this regularly. No thinker.
And no looker I don't understand though?
Howcome no thinker nor looker no chooser even and still there's knowing, seeing etc… weird!

Your suffering is the best place to look.' I' makes pain or discomfort into suffering.

So true as I suffered I noticed very very very strange, I laughed and then pain came back, saw though it again etc.
There's still suffering and I but less sticky, falls away. Enjoying it.

Nice one, what did you say about the idea of 'no choice' being weird? Where is the chooser now? Can you spot choosing anywhere in your experience.
I know the arm raising exercise made an impression but keep checking !

This really startles me! No chooser? Like the arm raising exercise. I keep checking, checking. O Ratnapani this is so strange!!!!

Gotto leave now and also very tired.
Thank you so much for guiding me! You're the best!
Will explore more into fear and suffering without me my mine, tomorrow, yippie :) and keep you posted.

Wishing you well
Doerian xx

[ratnapani]

Hi Doerian,

'Are they me, are they mine?'
'I' dentification is where the suffering occurs.

Yes it does!

So keep looking in the experience for someone who is having emotions.

Doing this regularly. No thinker.
And no looker I don't understand though?
Howcome no thinker nor looker no chooser even and still there's knowing, seeing etc… weird!

There isn't anything to understand, just something to SEE. Thinking about it won't help. You keep experiencing no thinker etc but keep looking for the one you still think logically must to turning the wheels, pin him down, where exactly is he located ?

So true as I suffered I noticed very very very strange, I laughed and then pain came back, saw though it again etc.

Are you letting thoughts about your experience get in the way of relaxing into really seeing ?

There's still suffering and I but less sticky, falls away. Enjoying it

.

Thats nice, What's in the space when things are less sticky ?

This really startles me! No chooser? Like the arm raising exercise. I keep checking, checking. O Ratnapani this is so strange!!!!

Strange - for whom is it strange?

Shall we do another exercise ?
Take two different drinks, choose whatever you fancy, water, juice, tea, coffee or whatever.
Place them on a table in front of you,
Sit and look and then count 1 2 3 and pick up one of the two and take a sip.

Please describe your experience, who chose ?

I look forward to hearing the results of your investigations.
Ratnapani xx

[Doerian]

Hi Ratnapani,

Take two different drinks, choose whatever you fancy, water, juice, tea, coffee or whatever.
Place them on a table in front of you,
Sit and look and then count 1 2 3 and pick up one of the two and take a sip.

Please describe your experience, who chose ?

Description: before I started thoughts came up that wondered which drink would be chosen? exciting! I fancied both of them, no preference. Difficult to stay with them (the drinks). Thoughts all over the place.
Couldn't find a chooser but the mind did alls sort of things like taking/choosing before 3, i.e. already on 2. Haha no idea who did that! hahaha so funny!
No huge revelations though, no chooser… It's empty no fixed chooser or I, I could point to.
It's completely ridiculous in a funny way, will do this exercise again. No preferences, as if there's no choice. And it's endless. When there seems to be a decision or decision maker --> thought: 'Shall I choose the chocolate milk this time and see what happens? Who is thinking this? Who made that choice to come up with that idea?
No fixed entity or point or, there's nothing? There's just seeing and experience?! Feels very very broad and spacious and so calm to experience in itself for a moment… But I still have many questions.
1.When there's the choice to learn something like playing the piano, no good piano paying will be done if there's no exercise? 2.Giving 2 workshops tomorrow which I need to prepare, if not-I doesn't choose to work for it the workshops will not happen or they would be so bad that I get no subscriptions.
Still there's no chooser who's pulling the strings?
What is this??

Don't take thoughts or mind as a 'baddy' as you mentioned earlier. What I meant to say; if I go into the analyzing mind the seeing vanishes and I can't stay with the exercise or with awareness. The most direct experience I had until now and still have is feeling and seeing my fingers typing this. That's when I feel strongly there's only experience and no chooser no I no me mine. There's no instigator it goes sort of on automatic? But that's what I just train in mindfulness courses, to be more aware and to choose or make decisions more consciously than on automatic? Responding instead of reacting. Can't wrap the mind, or thoughts around this. Seems so paradoxical. Contrary, confusing.
Going back to seeing my fingers type not really choosing words, words come. When I just allow not fighting just seeing there's a flow no worries but when analyzing or thoughts come in I get worried looking for answers.
Will do the fear-question you suggested again later this day.

Just now the black current cranberry juice was chosen without any preference. The hand took it and not-I took a sip which was nice.

to be continued…

Doerian xx

[ratnapani]

Hi Doerian,

You have seen that there does not need to be 'a separate chooser' for choices to be made.
However,

Still there's no chooser who's pulling the strings?

1 That's for you to try and find by looking for him.
2 Causes and conditions - all your history, stuff that goes to make up your experience.
2a But is there a separate self, a wee core to which everything is referred back ?
3 Is there anything 'in there' which, unlike everything else, thought, mood, physical state, never changes?

There's no instigator it goes sort of on automatic?

Automatic suggest unaware, what you describe sounds aware, just not tense or conflicted.

But that's what I just train in mindfulness courses, to be more aware and to choose or make decisions more consciously than on automatic? Responding instead of reacting.

Responding rather than reacting - absolutely. You train people to be aware of what is going on within them, their thoughts and feelings - the nice, nasty and neutral, and from that to 'make a positive decision'. That is really great as far as it goes and saves much suffering.
However,why do we react ? What is the root of reaction ?

The root of reaction is an 'I' ,
The delusion of a center, not just of experience but of everything !
This delusion 'should' get what it wants and never get what it doesn't.
Without that delusion we can be a lot more relaxed about samsara being a mixed bag.

I have done one retreat with some mindfulness trainees and what they had been taught pointed straight to no self !
We agreed that if you don't believe your shit, don't identify with it, what's the big deal about not identifying with a theoretical self ?

Ratnapani xx

[Doerian]

Hi Ratnapani

3 Is there anything 'in there' which, unlike everything else, thought, mood, physical state, never changes?

Yes!
But it's not anything in there. There's something that never changes but it's not a fixed entity I can point to it's all around.

2a But is there a separate self, a wee core to which everything is referred back ?

NO!

Automatic suggest unaware, what you describe sounds aware, just not tense or conflicted.

YES thanks! Gotit.

We agreed that if you don't believe your shit, don't identify with it, what's the big deal about not identifying with a theoretical self ?

Don't understand your phrase.
There's no point? No identification everything is just as it is mental states, feelings and emotions included. Mixed not separate and very rich.

Still not sure about this that never changes. It's not an it. It's certainly not an I more like field but it's all inclusive endless I can only experience part of it but its larger than whatever this is which is not I.
Don't make sense anymore sorry.
When I try to understand I get tense again, identification takes place when trying to understand?
Have a nice day
Doerianxx