Please help me to see the simple truth of it

[willing]

I'm not the only night owl, it seems! Goodness, thank you for coming back so soon with your response, Lawrence! And thank you for these lovely direct pointers. I'm sneaking in a few minutes to type this before starting work, so I'll just dive straight in.

More solid.

What does this actually mean? No need to answer, just consider the statement. Is this thinking?

You said no need to answer, but it seems worth a brief comment - I did mean this 'solid' as an experiential term, not an assumption about how things are. It was a feeling hard to describe, but I was trying to capture a felt sense of something like confidence or integrity in my feeling being, a kind of trust in the experiencing of the moment. Still hard to describe! But I hope that says a little more about it.

It’s all just patternings of the whole.

Conceptualization. How is this anything but thinking ?

This was also meant to convey something experiential - I'm clearly not doing a very good job of this! I guess trying to put any of this into language runs into the problem of concepts, especially when the experience is not yet very crystallised. But the patterning I referred to was an inner visual-type experience that accompanied bringing my name into mind, which had vague images - sensed memories - and coloration and a kind of felt texture. Maybe it is a type of thinking I suppose - but not a conceptual kind, they're sensory images.

There is a gentle movement here. Now I will ask you as there is no location of your name, can you tell me where this "I" you talk about is located? Look for it.

Two things come up here, when I look for this "I". The first is a version of those sensory images, colours I talked about above, with a felt sense that memories are arising, although they're vague and I'm not focusing on them - they don't become full-fledged stories. They don't have a location, they're ideas - imagistic thoughts - not sure how to describe them but anyway it's not a "thing". The other is this living, breathing, so familiar body. That feels like a location for some sort of I. It's not an ownership feeling, it's a sense of presence from a particular place in any given moment. An experiencing perspective.

It’s “in my mind” – whatever that means

How is this Looking Directly? Don't pontificate- that's thinking

OK :)

Just to mention - I'm experimenting with quotes-within-quotes this time - got it wrong last time I tried so hopefully this'll work but sorry in advance if this comes out a bit of a mess. Will try again if so!

Grateful thanks as ever for all your help, Lawrence.

warmly,
willing

[Lawrence]

Hi Willing

I work in the night and the day. It is one and the same from this space.
Looking at your responses generally you walk a fine line in between Thinking and Looking, unable to distinguish between the two.
I am going to try and break this blur. Let us look firstly at your response to my question.

There is a gentle movement here. Now I will ask you as there is no location of your name, can you tell me where this "I" you talk about is located? Look for it.

Two things come up here, when I look for this "I". The first is a version of those sensory images, colours I talked about above, with a felt sense that memories are arising, although they're vague and I'm not focusing on them - they don't become full-fledged stories. They don't have a location, they're ideas - imagistic thoughts - not sure how to describe them but anyway it's not a "thing". The other is this living, breathing, so familiar body. That feels like a location for some sort of I. It's not an ownership feeling, it's a sense of presence from a particular place in any given moment. An experiencing perspective.

I asked you simply where is this "I" located. The word "location" means
a particular place or position.
"the property is set in a convenient location"
synonyms: position, place, situation, site, locality, locale, spot, whereabouts, point, placement; scene, setting, area, environment;
bearings, orientation;
venue, address;quote] [

What you do is go off at a tangent expressing your ideas and thoughts about the word. You are not focusing on a simple question.
Go back and answer the question not using your imagination. Tell me where "I" is located or if you can't find it tell me. If you can where do you "feel" it located.
If you are claiming that you don't have a sense of "I", this clearly runs contrary to what you write about your name as a label and your feelings on it. That "I" looked at that label. So there was clearly a sense of "I". This is the illusion of "I" trying to hide. You need to face it full on to move forward.
Have a good day
Blessings
Lawrence

[willing]

Thanks, Lawrence. Yes, there definitely seems to be something I'm not seeing here. Thanks for helping me to clarify my looking. I thought what I wrote was clearly about location, but now I read it again I see it isn't at all. Let me try again.

I asked you simply where is this "I" located. The word "location" means
a particular place or position.

There are these two sense of "I" that I relate to. There is this "I" that's something like my identity; it's tangled up with my name, my sense of my own past. That has no location. It's abstract, an idea. Then there's this bodily being sitting right here at the computer. That's also part of my sense of myself, my "I", but in a different way. "I" am typing. "I" am sitting here. This "I" is my physical, experiencing body and I experience it as being located wherever that body is.

I hope I've managed to express this more clearly now than in my last post. Maybe it's still skirting that line you mention, but I'm not finding any more to offer on this just now.

warmly,
willing

[Lawrence]

OK Willing
This is clearer and helps to break things down further

There are these two sense of "I" that I relate to. There is this "I" that's something like my identity; it's tangled up with my name, my sense of my own past. That has no location. It's abstract, an idea.

If its abstract it doesn't exist does it ? So this is just illusion.
What comes up for you when you know this is just illusion. What feelings in your body is there, not in your thoughts ? Direct Looking Please

Then there's this bodily being sitting right here at the computer. That's also part of my sense of myself, my "I", but in a different way. "I" am typing. "I" am sitting here. This "I" is my physical, experiencing body and I experience it as being located wherever that body is.

You say your "I" is typing and your "I" is sitting.
If I cut your arms off has your "I" evaporated or disapeared ?
If I remove your body has your "I" evaporated or disapeared ?
Of course not.
You have no idea where "I" is at all have you ?
It is just a thought arising. Notice that even that is just a thought about a thought.
When you say

"I" am typing. "I" am sitting here.

notice you are reading this on the screen. Did any "I" do this or control this. As you scan each word, each sentence it is just happening. You are not deciding to do this. It is just being done. You may look at these words in puzzlement. Is there any "I" involved in theis puzzlement or is it just happening. Notice as you look around the room and think about this. Thoughts are just arising. Is there any "I" controlling this? Or is it just a thought arising ? Notice this is just a thought about a thought.
Go for a walk do you say I am going to put one foot in front of another, or do you just walk. Is there any"I" involved in it or even when querying what I am saying. Isn't this "I" just a thought arising ? Where is the "I" in any of this. Perform any task. Doesn't it just happen ? Even if you say "rubbish, I am going to touch my nose with my finger" notice the seperation. The finger touches the nose, but no "I" actually controlls it. It just happens
What comes up for you with this.
Blessings
Lawrence

[Lawrence]

I forgot one sentence after these statements

You say your "I" is typing and your "I" is sitting.
If I cut your arms off has your "I" evaporated or disapeared ?
If I remove your body has your "I" evaporated or disapeared ?
Of course not.

If you say there FEELS like an "I" present.
Where does it start and where does it end ?

[willing]

Lawrence, thank you for being so patient with my blurry attempts at looking! It feels like this is a slowly unfolding process.

I've spent some time with this since yesterday, and re-reading your last post a few times to see if that helps it to sink in a bit more. Here's where I'm up to...

If its abstract it doesn't exist does it ? So this is just illusion.
What comes up for you when you know this is just illusion. What feelings in your body is there, not in your thoughts ?

It doesn’t exist in itself, no. I already knew this at some level, but now it feels like I’m seeing it more clearly. What feelings come up – not much actually. It seems quite obvious. Mundane, even. No big rush of freedom! I find that quite strange.

You say your "I" is typing and your "I" is sitting.
If I cut your arms off has your "I" evaporated or disapeared ?

No.

If I remove your body has your "I" evaporated or disapeared ?

Yes? It feels like that would get rid of this bodily, experiencing “I”.

I've seen something more about this, though. Yesterday eating lunch, I tried out the thought “I am eating lunch” to see what came up. Realised there’s only the contact of my hand, lips, then mouth with the food – the whole body isn’t involved in eating lunch. Then swallowing – feeling it in the throat – and by the time the food got to my stomach the sensation of individual mouthfuls was already gone. The feeling there was more diffuse. So, while in a sense “I” was eating, in terms of experience, my whole body wasn’t that “I”. My feet weren’t part of it, for instance. I saw that self-as-body is imprecise. It’s a description of a situation but even that is an abstraction, it’s not actually the experience. Thank you. I don’t know if I’d have seen that without your persistent prodding.

You have no idea where "I" is at all have you ?

No, I don’t. I feel quite clear about what I’ve noticed in experience, but that leaves a very mild feeling of being bereft of something. Not much, just a vague sense of “what now?”

I haven’t got to your questions about the feeling of control yet, but I will try this out when I walk to work shortly and check in with you later.

So much gratitude,
willing

[willing]

PS..

You are not deciding to do this. It is just being done.

For now, I'm finding it hard to get my head around this. On one hand it feels like I genuinely am becoming untethered from a lot of “I”-stuff, but this shows me there are also still threads of attachment to this idea of “I”. "Just being done." Immediately a thought comes in – what about making decisions? Can I never make a decision again? How is that possible? Just sitting with that for a while. Right here and now, it’s easy to notice sensations and thought arising unbidden, but what about life decisions? Are they undirected too? I can accept that when choices emerge they are a function of the configuration of the being that is “deciding”, but this is all thinking and strictly banned. I’ll spend some time with the exercises you’ve given me. Have an important meeting today that’ll involve some choices that feel significant, so maybe that’ll be a chance to see what’s actually going on.

until soon, dear Lawrence,

willing

[Lawrence]

Godd morning Willing

Your doing great work

It is lovely to see that the word-fog is evaporating and there is much greater clarity in what you are saying.

If I remove your body has your "I" evaporated or disapeared ?

Yes? It feels like that would get rid of this bodily, experiencing “I”.

I was not clear here. The question was not supposed to be so esoteric. Much simpler. If I remove your lower half where you are siting has your "I" evaporated.
You seem to have answered this slightly but I need you to look closer, so I ask this n a more precise way. To the above the answer would be "no", of course ( though not pleasant !).
So at what actual point do you stop or start being "I" in your body. What part of your body is "I" ?

You have no idea where "I" is at all have you ?

No, I don’t. I feel quite clear about what I’ve noticed in experience, but that leaves a very mild feeling of being bereft of something.

This is the first indication that the illusion of "I" is unnerved. It has been seen to not exist. It will fight its corner to convince you it is actually there. It will try to rationalize everything. By Looking Directly you will find that all it is is a "feeling" because there was nothing there to lose in the first place.

You are not deciding to do this. It is just being done.

For now, I'm finding it hard to get my head around this. On one hand it feels like I genuinely am becoming untethered from a lot of “I”-stuff, but this shows me there are also still threads of attachment to this idea of “I”. "Just being done." Immediately a thought comes in – what about making decisions? Can I never make a decision again? How is that possible? Just sitting with that for a while. Right here and now, it’s easy to notice sensations and thought arising unbidden, but what about life decisions? Are they undirected too? I can accept that when choices emerge they are a function of the configuration of the being that is “deciding”, but this is all thinking and strictly banned. I’ll spend some time with the exercises you’ve given me. Have an important meeting today that’ll involve some choices that feel significant, so maybe that’ll be a chance to see what’s actually going on.

Is there any "I" doing any of this ? Aren't they just thoughts arising. Can you tell any difference between an "I" doing anything or is it just thoughts coming and going. Most of the body you know works without the "I" being involved, like the internal organs, the movement of blood etc. Breathing is a part example. Breathing for the most part just happens, though there is a feeling of limited control. Even then "You" are not breathing. It is just happening. You sometimes believe you can hold your breath , However with "thoughts" you cannot even have this. If you think there is an "I" or controller of your thoughts, tell me what your next thought is going to be. You can't. Why can't you just "think" yourself happy and then just be happy, if there was an "I" in control. Or even if I say "stop thinking of a red car," you can't", you can't even do that. Thoughts are "coming in" and "going out". When you look and try to examine this ...simply notice these are thoughts about thoughts.

I hope your day goes well
Love and Blessings
Lawrence

[willing]

Dear Lawrence, I am so sorry but my internet connection's playing up, so I'll have to offer a fairly basic response from my phone. Don't think i can use the quote function, but there are two main things you asked that i wanted to respond to tonight

Where in the body does the "I" begjn and end?

Ha! Good question! It isn't there, i see it isn't part or all of the body. That was an idea not an experience, jusf found it harder to spot thsn the identity stuff. I haven't found an "I" in my experience yet. Which leads me to..

Thoughts are just arising. Is there any "I"controlling this?

I looked today, after that meeting at what happened. I looked when i was walking, and at the precise order i ate my lunch in. I looked when i was working, distracted, remembering that i needed to drop into my neighbour on the way home from work even though it was late and i was hungry. I only saw thoughts. I didn't see a controller. There was sometimes a sense that i had made a choice, but that was a thought too. I don't think it was really control, as such. A couple of times i've felt the briefest of flickers of alarm - slightly adrift - is there really no anchor?? But mostly it feels ok, like something i can trust. I don't know if i've really seen this or am just thinking it at the moment. Will stay attentive.

Thanking you for your kind guidance,

willing

[Lawrence]

Good Evening Willing

Thanks for using your smartphone to get your info across.
Note these

There was sometimes a sense that i had made a choice, but that was a thought too. I don't think it was really control, as such. A couple of times i've felt the briefest of flickers of alarm - slightly adrift - is there really no anchor?

Can I never make a decision again? How is that possible? Just sitting with that for a while. Right here and now, it’s easy to notice sensations and thought arising unbidden, but what about life decisions?

Notice that

a decision/ sense that I made a choce/Idont think it was really control/a couple od times I felt the briefest of alarm/is there really no anchor ?

all have one commonality. They are just thoughts arising or thoughts about thoughts. There is no actual "I"

A couple of times i've felt the briefest of flickers of alarm - slightly adrift - is there really no anchor

This again is the illusion of "I" being grappled with -it is struggling .What is there to be frightened of ? Are you frightened of losing something you never had ? Look directly at that fear. Watch it where is it felt.

But mostly it feels ok, like something i can trust. I don't know if i've really seen this or am just thinking it at the moment

Where is this "something I can trust" felt. Follow this. Look deeply relax into it. Tell me where you go and what you feel. This could be your key.

Blessings
Lawrence

[willing]

It's always such a delight to see a new message from you has arrived! Thank you for this Lawrence.

I'm noticing that what I’m seeing about this sense of “I” being a kind of thought feels real but fragile. It has quite a wispy, vague quality, as though it’s not quite in view. I’m trying to stay with it to investigate the apprehension and the trust, but couldn’t quite hold it for long enough to look very closely. Here's what I can say at the moment...

This again is the illusion of "I" being grappled with -it is struggling .What is there to be frightened of ? Are you frightened of losing something you never had ? Look directly at that fear. Watch where it is felt.

There was a faint lurching sensation from my belly up towards my chest. Not a strong feeling, and very brief. After that, no further sensations I could discern. Nothing I’d call fear. That impression of my body somehow equating to me keeps re-surfacing, even though I find no “I” there. It’s a bit confusing. It’s easier to get past that with my eyes closed. Somehow the visual impression of the world through my eyes seems to reinforce the sense of selfness. Suspect I’m conflating the “I” with the simple fact of having a body with particular sensory apparatus, but I'm finding it hard to get thoroughly past that in the experiencing.

[quote"]Where is this "something I can trust" felt. Follow this. Look deeply relax into it. Tell me where you go and what you feel. [/quote]
This doesn’t appear to have a location. It is the sense of obviousness that has been coming up with seeing the “I” as thought-stuff. It’s subtle. Very faint. It feels like something almost restful? Something settled? It feels like a kind of solidity, or perhaps better, something reliable. Not in a fixed way, more in the sense of truth. If I had to describe it experientially, the best I could probably do is that it's a feeling of “of course”.

This is all quite ineffable at the moment, it feels like I’m tiptoeing around it a bit. Am I holding back do you think, Lawrence? Is there anything I could try to get a little closer?

Warmly,
willing

[Lawrence]

Hello Willing
It is always a kick to have your responses. I try to visualize your image and what you see.

I will get back to you later, but just to show rambling goes on here to. Some ramblings I wrote a month ago

The purpose of existence

So this fell freely into my head as I walked along the seafront before sangha this morning with Ananta.
I half-stroked the beard which is growing. I said to my -self ( talking mind-very bad for Looking) when my brother comes next week he will may “Oh are you growing a beard?” I will say “No. It is growing itself”. Smart Alec. Yes, I know, so perhaps I wont now. But there you have it in a nutshell. Who or what controls anything. Can you control the ageing of your skin or the pain and anguish that you feel. Your thoughts -can you control one thought from coming through ? Go on try it. Just for a moment and then you see it is a thought about a thought. OK some of you know this and some of you never thought about it. Another unintentional joke. So if you cannot control your thoughts how is there personal responsibility for anything. Some say there is no-one to have that responsibility others say that is not true...and if there is no personal responsibility , why not just sit down and do nothing or kill anybody you do not like ...or just do what you FEEL like doing. Well have you ever done anything you did not feel like doing...or did you just do it because it was your job...if you did not really Feel like doing it...you would not do it. You can say..I only did it because (blaming something/someone else) but you did it and it just happened because you did it. So all this stuff is happening. Can you control your past ? It is just a memory of something you believed happened. Of, course you can't. You may think you can change how you perceive it-but it is just memory. So how can you control the future any more than you can control the past. That is, assuming there is such as thing as “future”. Where is future? Let's leave that there and go with what we think we know. You cant change your body ageing or the thoughts that come in. It just happens. How can you control the things that you think you are going to do? The future never comes so how can existence have a purpose. What has this to do with the purpose of existence or my beard , you may ask? It requires future orientation to answer to discuss that. Well my beard is growing-and I believe I am growing it because I think it is a good idea at the moment. Tomorrow I may shave it off. So, my conclusion is the purpose of existence is that it seems like a good idea at the moment and tomorrow...MU

[Lawrence]

Good afternoon Willing

Let's see how we can move this...

This is all quite ineffable at the moment, it feels like I’m tiptoeing around it a bit. Am I holding back do you think, Lawrence? Is there anything I could try to get a little closer?

Just close you eyes. Look, don't think, through those closed eyes. Concentrate on looking. Forget all thoughts. Just look. Notice what is happening in your experience through those closed eyes. Relax into it. When you do this you will see just darkness, maybe there will flashes of lights dotted here and there. You will notice sounds passing through, you will notice where your body is in contact with the earth or chair. When you relax just notice there are just sensations. Forget aboy your preconceptions. When you do this all you notice is sensation. Not abody sitting on a chair...just sensation. Grip you right hand into a fist. Notice it is just a hand disconnected. It could be equally "out there" as much as part of you. Notice breathing. Listen to sounds. Notice , without memory and in just the present moment all there are are sounds. Coming going..or just silence. With eyes closed notice there really is no seperation it is all one experience. There are now boundaries or seperation to anything. Read this several times untill you understand the process. Don't think, just follow. The deeper you look, you will notice there is no end to that which you are looking and feeling. It is just sensation. You are simply awreness having a sensation.
Do this for as long as you can. Then
Open your eyes and this time just look through open eyes. Wherever you are notice that there are shapes and colours. Everything you see "mind" wants to label , because that is what "mind" has been told to do. like your name. It is just "thinging". It is shape form and colour. Sometimes it moves; sometimes not. It is just an experience happening. Everything you look and hear and smell is just happening. Only mind, using memory, labels it. Notice your breath, a label too. What is the distance between your breath and the wall opposite you. Memory gives you the label of distance but all you actually experience is colour shape form. Without memory it is just experience. Yet memory is just thoughts arissing. You are not seperate from any of this. They are all aspects of you. You query this ? Look at the trees. They make the oxygen that you breath. Are you seperate from the tree. Surely not. You would die without the tree as you would not die without your arm or lower body...and where does the tree sit...on the ground and needs to be nirtured by the soil. So you are not seperate from the soil, the tree and anything else at all. Everything is reliant on everything else, so there is no individual "I" that does anything. Watch your thoughts are they different to the tree. Your own anxieties and worries and desires. Are they any different to your breath, the tree, the sky , the Earth the Solor System . Just watch it all . There is just Awareness having an Experience. Now, tell me IN YOUR EXPERIENCE...what is watching and observing this and has always watched and observed it all ?

Blessings
Lawrence

[Lawrence]

There are now boundaries or seperation to anything.
supposed to read NO boundaries or speration to anything !!!!!!!!!!!

[willing]

Thank you for sharing your "ramblings" Lawrence, I loved reading them. And for this wonderfully detailed and direct pointer. I have been trying it this evening but am having trouble staying with it to be honest. It's been a rough day and I'm feeling sad and tired. Hopefully it'll soak in a little deeper overnight, I will try again in the morning. I'm sure these pointers will help - I've had this boundarylessness experience in meditation before so have some sense of what you are describing.

Back soon!

love
willing