Looking for the last parts/confirmation

[Mikeforfree]

Oops accidentaly double posted it.
Can you delete the last post? Cant find the delete button.

[Xain]

But its not always easy to see. Because the thoughts i am choosing to do this/that can be quite convincing.

I understand.
This is simply conditioning. We are so used to not examining what is going on, and not examining our own thoughts that we automatically 'go with what we've always assumed was right'.

Is there actually someone (an 'I') that is 'being convinced by thoughts'?
I mean, sure, we can talk about what is going on as an appearance. But is there an inherent self - A real 'I' here being convinced?

As I mentioned, let's look at thoughts now.
Both thought and imagination can be examined in the same way.

Think a thought, or imagine an object. Anything will do.
Now inquire:

1) Can what created or 'made' that thought or imagined object be found?
2) Can what is witnessing the thought or imagined object be found?
3) What control is there to create thoughts, or to stop thoughts from appearing.
If there was REAL control, could thoughts be completely stopped for one day?
There may APPEAR to be control . . . the content of thoughts themselves may suggest that there is control . . .(through thinking about what is happening), but what do you FIND in control?

Xain ♥

[Mikeforfree]

I understand.
This is simply conditioning. We are so used to not examining what is going on, and not examining our own thoughts that we automatically 'go with what we've always assumed was right

Makes sense. And the conditioning doesnt just dissapear overnight. In case of any doubt popping up in day to day life, i just look again and check if there is anybody to be found?

But is there an inherent self - A real 'I' here being convinced?

It seems that thoughts that go together with a heavy/negative emotion are the most convincing.
Or thoughts that come up with an image of a past event.
Convincing to who? I dont know. There just seems to be truth in them in the moment when they are experienced.
But they are not so reliable since thoughts and emotions change so fast.

1) Can what created or 'made' that thought or imagined object be found?
2) Can what is witnessing the thought or imagined object be found?
3) What control is there to create thoughts, or to stop thoughts from appearing.
If there was REAL control, could thoughts be completely stopped for one day?

Did this multiple times with different thoughts and imagined objects.
1. No the most random thoughts/ images come up but no idea why/ how that thought came up! Nothing is found what created the thought. This feels good to see.
2. The thought is witnessed, thats the only way the tought can be known. Cant find what is witnessing the thought tho. There is just witnessing.
3. If i had the knowledge to stop certain thoughts from appearing i would have certainly done that. Any attempt to block certain thoughts then they just become stronger and repeat more often.
Yes is there was real control it would have been possible to stop thoughts for a certain period of time, or choose happy thoughts, thats ofcourse not possible and ridiculous haha! I can see that what some people are saying "always think positive" just creates more frustration. As if there is somebody that chooses to think positive thoughts.
Same for spiritual teachings. They can be easily misunderstood when somebody says "try to ignore the thoughts".

[Xain]

Makes sense. And the conditioning doesnt just dissapear overnight. In case of any doubt popping up in day to day life, i just look again and check if there is anybody to be found?

Yes. I hope you understand that I am just describing an appearance and the reasons why that appearance would continuously occur. I am not suggesting that there is an inherent self here that is conditioned.

The thought is witnessed, thats the only way the thought can be known.

Well this would be the general assumption from knowledge and intellect.
But do you actually find two things? A thought and the witnessing of it?
Can you find something witnessing? Or only an idea that there must be something?

Is there any control over thoughts AT ALL?
What can you find in control over them?
Is 'control over thoughts' anything other than an idea / a belief?

Xain ♥

[Mikeforfree]

Yes. I hope you understand that I am just describing an appearance and the reasons why that appearance would continuously occur. I am not suggesting that there is an inherent self here that is conditioned.

Yes i understand. Thanks for clarifying.

Well this would be the general assumption from knowledge and intellect.
But do you actually find two things? A thought and the witnessing of it?
Can you find something witnessing? Or only an idea that there must be something?

Is there any control over thoughts AT ALL?
What can you find in control over them?
Is 'control over thoughts' anything other than an idea / a belief?

Checked again and focused on the witnessing.
No i cant find two things. Just the thought but not somebody or something thats witnessing.

I was not able to find anything before a thought thats making it possible to control the content of the thought.
But it feels like the control part is not 100% seen through because the belief is such a habit.

If you would tell me think about your favorite sport that you like to do.
Then there would be thoughts of gymnastics. Thats the sport i like the most.
I dont know what the thoughts will be, but they will be about gymnastics.
It seems to be possible to choose a subject?


Im probably looking wrong here. But im just trying to see this real clear because i think this part is important.

[Xain]

I was not able to find anything before a thought thats making it possible to control the content of the thought.

Ok, so would 'I control thoughts' be anything other than a belief or an idea?

But it feels like the control part is not 100% seen through because the belief is such a habit.

I understand.
But consider what you just said.
There is the subtle assumption that there is an inherent person here with a habit - And could have that habit changed.
Is there?
Can you find such an inherent self? Or just ideas about one?

If you would tell me think about your favorite sport that you like to do.
Then there would be thoughts of gymnastics. Thats the sport i like the most.

Do you know this FOR CERTAIN?
Why not thoughts about 'why are you asking me this question' appearing instead?
Or thoughts about something very important that was recently brought to your attention?

What is the 'I' that likes sports?
Can that one be found?
Or only the idea of a person?

What is the 'I' that would, or would not think about Gymnastics?
Can that one be found?
Or just 'thoughts of Gymnastics' and . . . thoughts about someone who likes it . . .and thoughts about someone who is thinking about it . . . and thoughts about someone who was asked a question . . . (If this seems true, can you see where this is leading?)

Xain ♥

[Mikeforfree]

Ok, so would 'I control thoughts' be anything other than a belief or an idea?

Yes indeed, no controller of thoughts to be found.

Can you find such an inherent self? Or just ideas about one?

Hah, just ideas about habits indeed. No person there thats making a habit or changing it.

Do you know this FOR CERTAIN?
Why not thoughts about 'why are you asking me this question' appearing instead?
Or thoughts about something very important that was recently brought to your attention?

What is the 'I' that likes sports?
Can that one be found?
Or only the idea of a person?

No, definetly dont know this for certain. I see that now that it is never possible to know which thoughts will come.

No, cant find an "i" that likes sports.
Just thoughts/ thought images about past experiences with the sport.

What is the 'I' that would, or would not think about Gymnastics?
Can that one be found?
Or just 'thoughts of Gymnastics' and . . . thoughts about someone who likes it . . .and thoughts about someone who is thinking about it . . . and thoughts about someone who was asked a question . . . (If this seems true, can you see where this is leading?)

There can be thoughts about it, or not. But nobody is choosing to have thoughts about it or not.

Yes its all thoughts about it. Some thoughts starting with an "I" but then "I" does not point to to a self. Its part of the thought. So a thought never points to a self.

Thoughts starting with an "I" can be quite strong when they appear. For example the thought "i am not confident enough" there is still the sense of a believer of thoughts especially when there are emotions at the same time.

But im starting to see that thoughts dont point to a person so they dont have to be taken so seriously! (This seems like a paradox because now im suggesting a person thats taking thoughts serious or not?)

[Xain]

But im starting to see that thoughts dont point to a person so they dont have to be taken so seriously! (This seems like a paradox because now im suggesting a person thats taking thoughts serious or not?)

A paradox - Yes, indeed!
Kind-of like saying 'I will realise there is no self, and at the same time realise that no 'I' ever realised no self'

But is there someone . . . a real self that you are describing that is taking the thoughts seriously?
Or just a belief that there is one?

I have spend quite some time looking for this "I" and never found it.

Yes. Do you now know why that is?

Did a real self ever choose to come here for guidance?
Did a real self ever reply to any of my questions?
Did a real self ever do anything?
Is there a real self at all?

Its about seeing that there is nobody behind the thought storys and emotions and that life is just experience and flow.

Indeed.
So? :-)

Xain ♥

[Mikeforfree]

But is there someone . . . a real self that you are describing that is taking the thoughts seriously?
Or just a belief that there is one?

No its just a belief but nobody found.

Yes. Do you now know why that is?

Did a real self ever choose to come here for guidance?
Did a real self ever reply to any of my questions?
Did a real self ever do anything?
Is there a real self at all?

There where thoughts about guidance and actions to come here but nobody behind it.

The replying now is also not done by a self. There is the fingers typing ,waiting, thoughts ,more typing. But no director.

Right now i can not give you any example of what a self has done. It seems was never a self indeed, but im saying this with some doubts.

There are some fears about there being no accomplisments anymore in life, no progress.
Fear of losing this passion for strength training.
Was there never any choice? It cant be all just a game where everything is already being determined before it started?

But then again there is also some relief of finally being able to relax.

Thanks Xain.

[Xain]

Let's address your fears directly - You are subtly suggesting that something is going to change, disappear or stop.

There are some fears about there being no accomplisments anymore in life, no progress.

What real self made accomplishments, and will do so in the future?

Fear of losing this passion for strength training.

What real self does strength training?
What real self could lose a passion for something?

Was there never any choice?

A choice for whom?

If any of these questions are tricky, simply look RIGHT NOW for the self that is going to do these things / that the question relates to.
Can it be found? Or only a belief / idea / thought about one?

Xain ♥

[Mikeforfree]

What real self made accomplishments, and will do so in the future?

Accomplishments are just ideas about past experiences.
There is no self that can accomplish something in the future.

What real self does strength training?
What real self could lose a passion for something?

There a thoughts and idea s about strength training and the body doing the strength training. But indeed not a self.
Hmm, no self that can lose or gain a passion.
Passion is not even a real thing? Just a belief made by frequent positive thoughts + activitied?

A choice for whom?

Choices are made but there is no real self behind it.

Life is getting more clearer the last days. Hard to describe but there is less searching and more attention to details. Also quite intense sometimes, have been tired and laying in bed a lot.

Thanks Xain, great pointers.

[Xain]

Ok. So . . . what next?

Is there a real self to be found?

Xain ♥

[Mikeforfree]

Xain! There is no seperate self found at all.

This is great. Indeed nothing changed but also so much!
There are still some thoughts about missing something or wanting to explore more, but no self behind it.

There is some hesitation but most of all excitement!

People around me dont really know about my searching, in some way i want to let them know what happened. But dont really know how to explain it.

Haha now it all sounds so simple, i wish i would have done this guiding 10 years ago when i started the "enlightment" search. Crazy i remember that i was on this site some years ago! Been reading a bit but for some reason i dismissed it then.

Thank you so much Xain.

[Xain]

Thank you so much Xain.

You are very welcome - But from what you were saying initially after reading 'gatecrashers', I could sense you were getting there - That things were becoming clear for you - All that you needed was a little pointing and a push.

Indeed it IS simple - But the very nature of the thinking process itself makes it out to be the most difficult thing imaginable.
There are a further six question I can ask as part of this guidance - I'll ask them next.

There are still some thoughts about missing something or wanting to explore more, but no self behind it.

This could potentially be the first of a whole series of realisations. Most people consider it to be 'the most important one'.
There is much more to look at after 'the gate'.

You have the tools to look for yourself now. If an 'I' is referenced, simply make the distinction between what you can FIND and what thoughts are suggesting.

For now, is there any areas you are unsure of. Anything 'missing'? Anything you want to mention or ask?
I want things to be 100% clear for you.

Xain ♥

[Mikeforfree]

You are very welcome - But from what you were saying initially after reading 'gatecrashers', I could sense you were getting there - That things were becoming clear for you - All that you needed was a little pointing and a push.

Indeed seeing was starting to happen but it took quite some time before it became clear. Im glad that I came to the forums to be guided in the right direction.

Indeed it IS simple - But the very nature of the thinking process itself makes it out to be the most difficult thing imaginable.
There are a further six question I can ask as part of this guidance - I'll ask them next.

Yes i see, a few old fixed beliefs can make it very difficult to see. Also the minds wants to understand it.

Sure you can ask the questions. I would like to take 2 or 3 days to let things settle before I answer them.

This could potentially be the first of a whole series of realisations. Most people consider it to be 'the most important one'.
There is much more to look at after 'the gate'.

Yes a lot of beliefs and structures are still set in place, im curious to look some more.
Do you still have realizations? I know this is different for everybody but is there sort of a timeframe for when things get settled?

You have the tools to look for yourself now. If an 'I' is referenced, simply make the distinction between what you can FIND and what thoughts are suggesting.

Yes, this is the same with emotions right? Last night some unpleasant emotions came up, but then i checked and there was no self making them and no self to change them. So when thoughts/emotions get chaotic just check if there is something/someone behind them?

For now, is there any areas you are unsure of. Anything 'missing'? Anything you want to mention or ask?
I want things to be 100% clear for you.

Umm well not really actually. No big questions, i guess thats good?

There is some fear of falling in some kind of void or becoming apathic, but yeah thats just thoughts.

Im curious to look at 3D space and the body in relation to "outside experience". And how this relates to other humans in the field of experience. But this is not really related to this guiding right?

Let me know if you think im missing something after this message.

Thanks a lot again!

Greetings Michael