Self Banishing Rituals

[deesee]

Try looking for a separate self the same way you would look for your house keys if they were misplaced.
If this self exists in any form, shape, container, experience, arising, it is possible to find it. So have a go looking for it. Is it possible to find a self? To smell a self? To touch a self? To see a self? Do you find any evidences that there is a self here now? Let me know if you find something that IS a REAL self.

There is just a construct that sometimes includes various ideas and beliefs that there is a real self. "I" know this. Identification still arises, and narrative still sweeps me up like a rogue wave at the beach and carries me away with "self".

The sense-of-self is present most of the time when experience is arising, and it seems to adhere to just about any phenomena that arise, but identifies more strongly and personally with certain phenomena than others.

[Canfora]

More than one question at a time is a bit overwhelming, so I've decided to approach it bit by bit.

Yes, I agree. I'll try to keep it simple.

when the body-mind is active

When you mention the "body-mind" what do you mean? Do you think you are the body or something that is inside the body? Or that mind is more than a stream of thoughts, popping one at a time?

The self identification is experienced as identification with experiential processes such as perceptions, feelings, interpretations and behaviors. It seems to be the adhesion of the sense-of-self to these processes or objects of perception which arise within awareness.

Can you describe a specific moment when you identify with a self? Let me help you understand what I mean. Right now, if you close your eyes and listen to the sounds that surround you, would you say you are the listener of the sounds?

[Canfora]

I've forgot to say that I love your Batman & Robin image :)

[deesee]

When you mention the "body-mind" what do you mean? Do you think you are the body or something that is inside the body? Or that mind is more than a stream of thoughts, popping one at a time?

On and off a state arises where there is belief that "I" am an entity, but now you point me to look at that, it's evident that these states are just thoughts in the stream. Thank you!

[deesee]

Can you describe a specific moment when you identify with a self? Let me help you understand what I mean. Right now, if you close your eyes and listen to the sounds that surround you, would you say you are the listener of the sounds?

There is an ongoing process of identification with the stream of thoughts as they arise. Most of the thoughts seem designed to prompt identification.

Typically yes, I would imagine that I was the listener of sounds, at least as the body. Sounds display independent and conditional behaviour, relative to an apparent hearer.

Sounds mean nothing and have no weight without reference to the apparently personal map of reality, and there is personal identification with the apparent cluster of experiences that form that map.

[Canfora]

Hi Donald! Glad you're back. I'm having a very demanding day. I'll reply tomorrow morning. xx

[Canfora]

On and off a state arises where there is belief that "I" am an entity, but now you point me to look at that, it's evident that these states are just thoughts in the stream. Thank you!

You're welcome!

There is an ongoing process of identification with the stream of thoughts as they arise. Most of the thoughts seem designed to prompt identification.

Yes. Can you also see how the mind works as a labeling machine? Its purpose is to name what the senses perceive, to label feelings, and to narrate the story.

Sit for a couple of minutes with your eyes closed and notice what the mind does. A sound is heard and thoughts describe what happened. A tingling sensation comes and thoughts label it. Just pay attention to how something is experienced and then labeled immediately afterward.

Labels for actions include an action and a doer: “I type,” “You read,” “I smile,” “You think,” “I walk,” “You talk,” “We sit,” and so on. Examine the labels for actions. See if there is really an “I” that does the breathing, walking, and thinking.

Right now notice the body breathing. Is it breathing by itself, or is there a breather? The label says, “I breathe.” Is there really an “I” that does the breathing? Lift one of your hands. Either one. Move it to the right. Now move it left. Look with your eyes at what is happening. Did a “self” move the hand? Or did the hand just move?

Take care,
S

[deesee]

Yes. Can you also see how the mind works as a labeling machine? Its purpose is to name what the senses perceive, to label feelings, and to narrate the story.

Sit for a couple of minutes with your eyes closed and notice what the mind does. A sound is heard and thoughts describe what happened. A tingling sensation comes and thoughts label it. Just pay attention to how something is experienced and then labeled immediately afterward.

Labels for actions include an action and a doer: “I type,” “You read,” “I smile,” “You think,” “I walk,” “You talk,” “We sit,” and so on. Examine the labels for actions. See if there is really an “I” that does the breathing, walking, and thinking.

This casts new light on the "labeling" practice of the Mahasi Sayadaw vipassana schools. It's possible that it's intended to "verbify" what is observed, and show them as processes. Interesting!

While the hearer, reader, thinker, talker etc, are indeed imputed, it is difficult to accept that there is no hearer, reader, talker from the perspective of the body. Close the ears and the hearing is stopped, implying that the body is the hearer. It's easier to accept that thoughts have no thinker, as there appears to be no conscious way to turn the thinking process off.

Right now notice the body breathing. Is it breathing by itself, or is there a breather? The label says, “I breathe.” Is there really an “I” that does the breathing? Lift one of your hands. Either one. Move it to the right. Now move it left. Look with your eyes at what is happening. Did a “self” move the hand? Or did the hand just move?

Muscle memory patterns and tendencies acting themselves out. There is also an awareness that is making sense of things and responding, such as to this question.

[Canfora]

Hi Donald!

Let's do a checkpoint:

There is no self. Period.

Is it true?

How do you know?

Take your time and write what feels true.

Take care,
S

[deesee]

There are thoughts that believe they are "self" and that try to masquerade as "self". Clearly they can't be. None of these processes are lasting or substantial, meaningful in themselves, or a definitive and true personal identity.

Could the apparent thread of continuity of consciousness or experience be said to be the self? The one who is always present; presence itself. The screen and it's objects or processes. Emptiness and form.

Some might say that.

I see that what adveita calls the Self is the same thing that Buddhism means by no-self. To me, there is no contradiction. One is just a positive framing, and one a negating framing of the same experiential reality.

There is no self. I know, because I do not experience one.

I am the Self. I know, because there is nothing i experience that is not myself.

[Canfora]

Thank you for your answers Donald.

There is no self. I know, because I do not experience one.

Can you give me some examples of "not experiencing a self"? How is this noticed right now?

In other words - how do you know - by looking at what is going on here now - that a separate self is as imaginary as Santa?

[deesee]

What is taken to be a self is just a morphing construct that periodically includes the idea that it is a self. Most thought-forms are self-shaped and are identified with blindly until it is realised that thoughts are playing a trick, are never true, and can never be true. When identification with ideas lessens. it is easier to see that the mind is not self.

[Canfora]

By reading your short answer I have the impression that you are getting frustrated or losing the pull to do this inquiry. And that you are focusing mainly in thoughts and trying to give the right answers instead of looking and describing your immediate experience. Since my guiding antennas can be misleading can you please tell me what is going on on your side?

Also, if you want to continue, can you have a fresh look to what isn't thought content and describe how it is seen there isn't a separate self here now?

Let me know if you have doubts about what I mean by *looking* and *describing* and why I suggest that you look and describe instead of thinking and reaching logical conclusions about these matters.

[deesee]

We are just operating from different primary submodalities. I am very much describing my immediate experience.

I hope you don't take this the wrong way, because "normal" people usually do, but noone's impressions have anything to do with a reality outside the direct arising experience, except in an abstract way. You'll be glad to know that none of the above remotely apply.

By "isn't thought content" do you mean perceptions? My eyes see only light. Sensations arise and pass away.

There are temporary psychological selves, that step into existence one into the shoes of the last.

Oh wait. Yes. Could you please explain your preferences regarding looking and describing?

[Canfora]

Could you please explain your preferences regarding looking and describing?

The direct way to check if a separate self is an illusion is by looking/noticing what is here now as it is - instead of relying in the content of thoughts - the story that thoughts are "playing".

And the only way I can differentiate if you are answering by looking at your immediate experience or by thinking, is to ask you to describe what is here now as it is, what can be perceived with the senses.

If a separate self is real, it has to be something that the senses perceive - like a cup, a cat, a finger. If a separate self is an illusion, it has to be something that only exists in thoughts - like Santa Claus, the Equator, a pink elephant.

So, look to what surrounds you and see if you find any evidences that what you are writing here matches what is being experienced:

There are temporary psychological selves, that step into existence one into the shoes of the last.

Do these thoughts point to something that can be perceived - or are these thoughts only thoughts?

Maybe this will be useful, it's from other guide:

How do you find out whether something exists or not when inquiring?

Can you see it? Hear it? Touch it /sense it in the body? Smell it or taste it?

If yes - it exists.

If not - what you are looking for doesn't exist. It is a fiction.