The Gate

Hi Steve,

When you are eating, there are a lot of complex actions but not much thought. Can actions happen that are not caused by thoughts?

Definitely like breathing, like swallowing.

What causes thoughts? Close your eyes and look carefully. Is there a "place" in experience where thoughts come from? Look in that place. Can you see what causes them?

Thoughts are created by actions/reactions to what we see /we feel or memories. we have been programmed to think, think think, since our 'birth". We heard since our birth:We need to think before we answer, we need to think of a good explanations for what we have done, we need to think to pass exams.... to name some.

Close your eyes and look carefully. Is there a "place" in experience where thoughts come from?

This is a hard one for me to explain. I guess it's a choice. We can choose not to think ( and that takes practice) but thoughts will normally come up from the experience by triggering a want, a desire, a lack, a memory.
When being in the experience and just "being" its like being in a state of mind. I guess that is what is being defined as "being present in the moment" It is a nowhere place where the experience just "is"
When not "present" in the experience, we let the thoughts comes up and take over the experience itself.
So to answer your question, "is there a place in the experience where thought comes from" would be for me that precise moment where we lose the present moment, where we let the thoughts form like a volcano erupting.
Nat

Hi Nat,

Thanks!

When not "present" in the experience, we let the thoughts comes up and take over the experience itself.

Can you decide whether to think something or not think it?
Can you think no thoughts at all for an hour? (You don't need to actually do this!)
Can you think only pleasant thoughts for a day?
Can you predict your next thought before you think it? (Try it.)
Can you stop a thought half way through? (Try it.)
Can you stop yourself thinking of a pink rabbit now that I've said it?

Is there a "you" that controls thoughts? Can you see it functioning?


Steve

Hi Steve,

Can you decide whether to think something or not think it?

I believe so

Can you think no thoughts at all for an hour? (You don't need to actually do this!)

Thank god. I think it would be possible.

Can you think only pleasant thoughts for a day?

I would be surprised. We can wish it, but when the though comes up.

Can you predict your next thought before you think it? (Try it.)

I don't believe so.I tried and nothing came up-lol

Can you stop a thought half way through? (Try it.)

Yes

Can you stop yourself thinking of a pink rabbit now that I've said it?

Yes I can but the thought came up fist and stop when I read the rest of the phrase.

Is there a "you" that controls thoughts? Can you see it functioning?

I believe there is. I can see how we can stop thoughts in awareness of it.
Nat

Hi Nat,

Can you decide whether to think something or not think it?
I believe so

I will help you to find this out for sure.

Are thoughts real? That is, do they exist?
Is the content of thought real? For example, if you think of a glass of water, can you drink it?


Steve

Hi Steve,

Is the content of thought real? For example, if you think of a glass of water, can you drink it?

No it is not. No matter what we are thinking about it does not make it real :-)

Are thoughts real? That is, do they exist?

Thought are not real just like their content. So they do not exists.

Nat

Hi Nat,

Thanks for your answers.

Is the content of thought real? For example, if you think of a glass of water, can you drink it?

No it is not. No matter what we are thinking about it does not make it real :-)

Yes! They can be a story about reality but they can't be reality.

Are thoughts real? That is, do they exist?

Thought are not real just like their content. So they do not exists.

How do you decide what's real and what's not? What's your definition?
Santa isn't real. So he can only be 'there' if you pretend. Are thoughts like Santa? Do they not appear if you don't pretend them into existence?

Philip K. Dick defined reality as, "that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
Do you agree with that? If so, are thoughts real by that definition?


Steve

Hi Steve,
Ok. According to this Philip, thoughts are real I can see that.
Nat


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Hi Nat,

Philip K. Dick is an author.

Can you decide whether to think something or not think it?

I believe so

This exercise will be a bit tricky, and will take some effort, but there's something you have to see. Please read this carefully.

We want some situation where you interrupt a thought. Either make it happen - which should be easy if you control thoughts, right? - or wait for a situation where you think something but you don't like it so you try to stop thinking it.

Now, when this happens, there is a thought saying something like "I don't like this - think of something else!" Note that thoughts can have emotions along with it. There might be a "yuck!" feeling.

As a suggestion, you could try thinking of something horrible that you know is happening somewhere in the world. News can be useful for this.

BUT - in a thought like this, self is only the CONTENT of the thought. That self is not real. If you look at a cup, there is the image of a cup on the table, and in your mind there is a thought "cup". The first is real, the second is not. Where is the real part in this thought?

So, look carefully and find out: The "think of something else" thought is a thought. Can you find any real "self" - that is - anything that is not thought content - actually causing the "think of something else" thought to occur? Or can you only find thoughts about a "you" that is stopping the thought you don't like?

Is there any evidence that "I don't like this - stop thinking about it!" is not just another thought in a stream of thoughts? Can you see anything special about it that distinguishes it from earlier and later thoughts?


Steve

Hi Steve,

We want some situation where you interrupt a thought.

Done this multiple times in my life.... as some ideas not coming from love pop up in my mind from time to time i do stop them and redirect my thinking....

That self is not real. If you look at a cup, there is the image of a cup on the table, and in your mind there is a thought "cup".

I actually get this....

Can you find any real "self" - that is - anything that is not thought content - actually causing the "think of something else" thought to occur? Or can you only find thoughts about a "you" that is stopping the thought you don't like?

Yes i totally can see this.

Can you see anything special about it that distinguishes it from earlier and later thoughts?

yes I can see the real self separated completely from the thought process. It is totally just a another thought....
Nat

Hi Nat,

yes I can see the real self separated completely from the thought process. It is totally just a another thought....

Great. Was it a real self or a thought about a self (i.e. not real)?

Or, to put it another way:
Is there a self that can be experienced as real that is causing the thought to be interrupted, or are there only thoughts about a self causing the thought to be interrupted? Or, is it still unclear?


Steve

Hi Steve,

Is there a self that can be experienced as real that is causing the thought to be interrupted, or are there only thoughts about a self causing the thought to be interrupted?

From what we discussed prior to this, there is only thoughts about a self causing the thought to be interrupted.

Hi Nat,

OK, great. So no actual experience of being a self interrupting thoughts outside of thoughts saying this is occurring.

There are thoughts arising and they have (fictional) content.
Outside of that, do you experience a 'you' that initiates or controls thoughts in any way?
If you're not sure, then just say so.


Steve

Hi Steve,

Outside of that, do you experience a 'you' that initiates or controls thoughts in any way?

Well, let's say, when I am doing a project for example, there is a perception I have, that my "mind" is controlling thought in trying to realise the project. So my mind perceived as being part of self would have controlled thoughts yes in that way.
.............................................
Those thoughts would arise as I am perceiving myself as doing something, soooooooo.... I guess my last answer is no. Those thoughts come up because of the action happening no being controlled by a self....
Nat

Hi Nat,

Well, let's say, when I am doing a project for example, there is a perception I have, that my "mind" is controlling thought in trying to realise the project.

What is the direct experience of mind? Is there anything in experience outside of thoughts arising? Does it have a location? Do you experience it functioning?

Those thoughts come up because of the action happening no being controlled by a self....

I'm a bit confused by this. Is there an experience of you controlling thoughts, or are you unsure about this?


Steve

Hi Steve,

What is the direct experience of mind?

Well not sure how to explain it.

Is there anything in experience outside of thoughts arising?

No I can say there is nothing outside of though arising. When we think our mind is controlling thinking-it is only another thought. there is no Self controlling any thoughts or mind.

Is there an experience of you controlling thoughts

No I don't believe there is a Me controlling thoughts....
Nat