Hi, anyone newcomer looking for some help?

[neeeel]

So I am getting clearer and can see that senses are happening spontaneously but somehow thoughts seem to have someone or something directing them.. or at least choosing them.. I am now seeming to choose to answer this rather than do jobs..

Ok, so take a look at thoughts. Watch them as they arise and fall away. Are you thinking them? Can you predict what the next thought will be? Thoughts link together yes, a thought triggers another thought, possibly linked to the previous thought, but is there a you that is actively thinking them, producing them? Can you stop thoughts from occuring? As you go about your day, watch for links between what you see and hear, and what thoughts appear. For example, you may see a photo of someone, and immediately a thought or memory about them appears. Did you think that thought?

Can you find the person who chose to answer this rather than do a job? How do you know that a choice was made? Did you detect a self making the choice, or was there thoughts of choice? Are you your thoughts? Can a thought choose?

In the experience I first spoke of it was clear there was no one .. but now there feels like a person ..a contraction... Any question that bugs me is that the sense of presence, of being alive
is that a soul? Does this teaching negate such notions?

This is not a teaching, that you follow blindly. it is taking a look at reality. I am only asking you to accept what you find in your reality, not follow a pre-laid-out teaching.

So, there is a sense of presence, yes. Is it you ? What control do you have over it? For example, can you stop sounds from arising? I take it by presence you mean the sense of space where everything, sights , sounds, thoughts etc arise? Is this space separate from the experience, or is it part of the experience? Who is it that is detecting that presence? And who is it who is detecting the Who that is detecting the presence? How many layers of selfs are there?


neil

[pamelaholt]

last sentence should read ¬a question that bugs me is understanding what the sense of presence , of being alive is...Does this teaching allow for a soul?

[pamelaholt]

Neil wrote," Who is it that is detecting that presence? And who is it who is detecting the Who that is detecting the presence? How many layers of selfs are there?"
I find it impossible to answer that.. so how would one answer the question... save to say... presence or being alived is noticed ... that sense seems to be consistent ... all thoughts , sensations and emotions come and go.

[neeeel]

last sentence should read ¬a question that bugs me is understanding what the sense of presence , of being alive is...Does this teaching allow for a soul?

And again, its not a "teaching". I am simply pointing to reality, and asking you to look. I am not asking you to believe, or handing out the answers that will lead you to eternal bliss.
To try and answer your question, soul is a belief. I am asking you to look at your beliefs, and see if they are true. Maybe you should include your belief in a soul in your looking. Why do you want there to be a soul? This is not the place for that though, we are focused on looking only at the self, so it will be simpler if you concentrate on looking at what I pointed at in my last post

I find it impossible to answer that.. so how would one answer the question... save to say... presence or being alived is noticed ... that sense seems to be consistent ... all thoughts , sensations and emotions come and go.

What I was trying to point out is that if you are this presence, then who is it that is noticing the presence. "you" cant be the presence and the thing which notices the presence.
All thoughts, sensations and emotions come and go yes, is there an experiencer experiencing all this? Or is the actual experience the only thing. when a sound arises, is there a separation between the sound and the hearer, or is there only hearing? Can you stop sounds from appearing? Look and see if you can find the experiencer.

Did you take a look at thought, as suggested in my last post?

[pamelaholt]

I dont believe in a soul, I was merely wondering whether it was negated by this exploration...
So I concede no see er, no hear-er , no experiencer etc but there only the actual experience ..

But whenI looked at the post about thoughts although I have to agree that one cant predict the next one... I am uneasy that in seeing that thoughts just arise, then there seems to be no responsibility for thoughts that may well be harmful to others unless they are checked.. It seems to be necessary to have a moral code , which although only beliefs; one can choose to follow or just engage in action that only profits the oneself or have thoughts for the other.. I accept that all thoughts seem to arise but following through is another matter...
Thanks
Pamela

[neeeel]

I dont believe in a soul, I was merely wondering whether it was negated by this exploration...
So I concede no see er, no hear-er , no experiencer etc but there only the actual experience ..

I dont want you to concede it. Did you check it out? What did you find?

But whenI looked at the post about thoughts although I have to agree that one cant predict the next one... I am uneasy that in seeing that thoughts just arise, then there seems to be no responsibility for thoughts that may well be harmful to others unless they are checked.. It seems to be necessary to have a moral code , which although only beliefs; one can choose to follow or just engage in action that only profits the oneself or have thoughts for the other.. I accept that all thoughts seem to arise but following through is another matter...
Thanks
Pamela[/quote]

none of this is relevant. All we are interested in is, is it true there is no self. If its true, its true, it doesnt matter what conclusions this truth seems to have. So, is it true?

Explore your uneasyness. Is this uneasyness created by you? Is it you? Is it created by thoughts? Are these thoughts you?

When I say, There is no self, in any way, shape or form, what comes up for you? What do you feel?

neil

[neeeel]

Sorry, messed up the quoting in last post.

To try and ease your mind a bit, if you are not doing these thoughts, then there is no need to believe in the content of the thoughts. They are just thoughts So if thought arises "I hate this person, I am going to punch them" then there is recognition that no one is thinking this thought, so there is no identification, no buying into the content. Its just a thought, passing through.

But you need to look and see for yourself. Who is responsible for the thoughts?

[pamelaholt]

Yes that is clearer.... There is still a persistent need to have a :somebody: I want to spend some time re reading the posts and really examining what you suggest about examining thoughts...
Pamela

[pamelaholt]

Neil wrote; All we are interested in is, is it true there is no self. If its true, its true, it doesnt matter what conclusions this truth seems to have. So, is it true.

Neil wrote;
When I say, There is no self, in any way, shape or form, what comes up for you? What do you feel?

I have spent some time looking at all the above statements. The last one evoked some sadness and and annoyance because I notice thoughts vehemently trying to come up with answers to scream YES there is a self but unfortunately I couldnt say say where or what it was... but then I couldnt really say what love is but it is experienced...

I am well and truly stuck...

Pamela

[neeeel]

Hi, sorry for the delay in responding.

I have spent some time looking at all the above statements. The last one evoked some sadness and and annoyance because I notice thoughts vehemently trying to come up with answers to scream YES there is a self but unfortunately I couldnt say say where or what it was... but then I couldnt really say what love is but it is experienced...

I am well and truly stuck...

Pamela

You cant say where or what the self is? when you responded to the following

How about, you are the person in control of your life, the one who makes decisions about what to do, the one who is liked by friends, or disliked by some people. You are the one who is good at some things, not so good at others. You are the one thinking your thoughts, feeling your emotions, the one living your life, the owner of the body.

with "Yes to all of that", it wasnt true that thats what you thought the self was? Dont worry about giving "correct" answers, just answer truthfully and honestly from your experience. so, if you feel that there is a self, then its ok to say so.

Have you started looking at your thoughts? Examining where they come from? You said in an earlier post

"But whenI looked at the post about thoughts although I have to agree that one cant predict the next one... I am uneasy that in seeing that thoughts just arise

So you see that thoughts just arise? Do you see that you arent actively thinking them? It can be confusing at times, as you get caught up in chains of thought. But whenever you remember to look, then take a look at your thoughts and how they are arising. See if you can connect sights, sounds, whatever, with what thought arises. For example, someone says something, which prompts a mental image, or a response. this will help you to see how much thoughts are spontaneous.


If you like, Re-read the whole thread, and ask me any questions that come up, any thoughts about anything that has been said, any doubts, anything that has become more clear, whatever. Dont worry, doubts and feeling stuck are natural. You can also look at your feelings of stuckness and try and find the one who is feeling them. Notice the thoughts arising when you read back over the thread, and look and see if you are "doing" these thoughts.

Thanks
neil

[neeeel]

Sorry, perhaps I misunderstood what you meant by

"I couldnt say say where or what it[the self] was."
Perhaps the reason you cant say where or what it is, is because you cant find it anywhere?

You also say "I couldnt really say what love is but it is experienced...". Yes, love is experienced, there are thoughts and feelings that you associate with love. Is the self experienced? What sort of experiences do you associate with the self?

[pamelaholt]

Neil,
Thank you so much for your reply. I feel very touched that you are taking the time to answer with patience and kindness. Your last post was so full things I want to respond to that it's hard to know where to start.
So I am going right back to the beginning.
Way back you asked what came up if you said there was no self. The most honest answer I can give is that I truly knew that once when thought stopped completely for a short time. Now the mental world chatters on and on coming up with a million commentaries on self versus no self and there is no peace about the subject. So let's start there, I want that assurance back that there is no self. But if you ask me to find the self ,all I come up with is transient thoughts, feelings and sensations and I am identified again with them...
I have read too much of the non duality stuff and now have more concepts than ever.

I like that science can't find a self. So it's not that I have a belief that I want to hang on to. I don't even now what I believe any more. ,other than there seems to be a body/mind existing here, but I am told that even that's an illusion.

I will reread the thread as you suggest and stop rambling on and get back to you.

Pamela

[neeeel]

Way back you asked what came up if you said there was no self. The most honest answer I can give is that I truly knew that once when thought stopped completely for a short time. Now the mental world chatters on and on coming up with a million commentaries on self versus no self and there is no peace about the subject.
Pamela

You can see that the mental world is chatter, now you need to find out where that chatter is coming from. Are you doing it all? If so, can you stop it?

I think part of your stuckness may be that you are expecting to get back to the experience of no thoughts, where you knew for certain that there was no self. I am guessing that that isnt going to happen, seeing no self isnt about getting into an altered mind state, or trying to reach a specific experience, its simply recognition that what you thought was true, isnt in fact true. So maybe you need to stop looking for that experience, and instead really look at what is happening now, in your reality. Look closely at thoughts and feelings as they come up, as much as you can throughout the day, and see if you can see where they are coming from

neil

[pamelaholt]

Neil,

I spent yesterday doing what you suggested and tried to find out where the chatter was coming from and it was obvious that it is just arising .

I can also see that to attempt to get back to a state of "no thinking" is not possible...

I keep going back to the one and only assertion that is being made ie Is there an "I" ?

There was a bit of a light bulb moment when I realised that I have spent the last several years up the cul de sac of asking " who am I" a la NON duality , which for me has not been helpful because it means I assumed there was an "I" which could be found ... be it everso nebulous eg Awareness, Consciousness etc ... It made the "I" something.
I am not knocking that for other people but It has not been helpful for me...

So I am not "solid" yet so I would like to plod on and as you suggest really look at what is happening now. in my reality.

I feel less frenetic and am willing to take this alot slower, when questions arise I am seeing them as thoughts and letting them arise and fall, same with emotions... Does this seem like the right track?

Thanks

Pamela

[neeeel]

Neil,

I spent yesterday doing what you suggested and tried to find out where the chatter was coming from and it was obvious that it is just arising .

Cool. So you are clear that you are not thinking these thoughts, that it just arises spontaneously? What is it that is noticing the chatter? Is that you?

I feel less frenetic and am willing to take this alot slower, when questions arise I am seeing them as thoughts and letting them arise and fall, same with emotions... Does this seem like the right track?

This will help in easing suffering yes, if you are not doing them, then they arent good or bad, they just are.

that is not really the purpose of what we are doing here though. You need to see through the illusion of believing that a self exists. To do that you need to look and see if there is a you that is doing any of the things that you thought you were.

It might help if you reconsider the following question, and answer as honestly as possible

Is there a self?

So if you still feel that there is self, say so, and try and describe where and what it is.

thanks
neil