[quote="alexnas"]Hello, Elizabeth
Just the usual mistake, Alexander, not much of a problem.
It's a habit, and language is like a rutted road, it has an I buried so deeply in narrative and story and general assumptions, that it is difficult to get the wheels out and drive off the road :-)
It's useful, though, and we continue to speak this language.
But this is why non-duality people like Tony Parsons and others refer to themselves as "this organism" or "this that used to be Jeff", in an effort to break out of that self-reflective language.
It is true-er to say that, and we could employ that language.
Let's try it for a bit.
"That which refers to itself as "Elizabeth' for the purposes of conversation, with an illusion of a self that exists only in thought, wishes to convey a concept, which cannot be mistaken for real, but is just a pointer to the real, and the real itself is questionable, due to errors in perception and processing. There is a need to establish, as well, levels of argument that require a course of study just to establish definitions of the level of argument..." OK, I'm amusing myself but you get the drift. Could go on forever, and we are not that young :-)
So, let's agree that language and concept are all only pointers to the real, and investigate them when they trip us up. Very useful really, as we live in the world of ordinary language most of the time.
You are already doing it! You experience a frisson when you say MY, that is great!
Just keep checking it for truth. Did an entity suddenly possess the muscles of your neck and snap your head around when you heard the car horn? Or would it be truer to say, that happened and immediately an explanation was applied to the happening, owning it and incorporating it into the narrative construction of an I's history?
Sounds a bit tedious at first, but it's the way that it quickly dawns on you at a visceral level, that whenever you look,
there is no one there except the character in the story. ABOUT Alexander, not an Alexander.
in the thoughts, and the self-reflective looping ot the thoughts.
And thoughts can't think.
Thoughts can't think?
Much love,
Anyone new can begin here
Re: Anyone new can begin here
Hello, Elizabeth
Events happen faster and faster. Especially internal events. This day (I wanted to say these days after last letter!) I tried to focus my perception in a new way. It was very inconvenient, as if something resisted. At the beginning the result was zero. Only many thoughts and doubts. But the something began to appear.
Two things appeared. These things were as ideas at the beginning, which I suddenly saw and decided to try.
One of them – to try percept the thought like senses, like pain, hunger or sense in the belly connected with fear.
The another one – the same experiment with the sense of I-ME-MY. I was something different, because ME is a saint caw…etc.
The result was quite interesting. I can’t and don’t want to make any final conclusion now, because I’m still in process, but right from the beginning the MY-nification began gradually to melt. I was similar like cloud on the sky – the form is changing, and the density smoothly is reducing.
Now I am still in this very interesting process of watching. But I also very appreciate your help, may be you help me to focus my attention and …. You know what :)
Namaste
Alexander
Events happen faster and faster. Especially internal events. This day (I wanted to say these days after last letter!) I tried to focus my perception in a new way. It was very inconvenient, as if something resisted. At the beginning the result was zero. Only many thoughts and doubts. But the something began to appear.
Two things appeared. These things were as ideas at the beginning, which I suddenly saw and decided to try.
One of them – to try percept the thought like senses, like pain, hunger or sense in the belly connected with fear.
The another one – the same experiment with the sense of I-ME-MY. I was something different, because ME is a saint caw…etc.
The result was quite interesting. I can’t and don’t want to make any final conclusion now, because I’m still in process, but right from the beginning the MY-nification began gradually to melt. I was similar like cloud on the sky – the form is changing, and the density smoothly is reducing.
Now I am still in this very interesting process of watching. But I also very appreciate your help, may be you help me to focus my attention and …. You know what :)
Namaste
Alexander
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Elizabeth
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Re: Anyone new can begin here
Alexander,
Hello, something is happening :-)
Are doubts thoughts ABOUT thoughts?
Is belief a thought about a thought? A supporting narrative for something that also exists only in thought?
Here is the only thing I would advise as you watch this process:
Don't lie. Don't add anything that is not there. No story attached.
Be utterly ruthless as something tries to tell you ABOUT it. And possess it, and spin an identity from the thoughts.
That is not it.
Go till there is nothing left to possess the experience.
And then, the I can come back all it likes. Good entertainment, a story. But never again the only world you see.
Much love, Elizabeth
Hello, something is happening :-)
Are doubts thoughts ABOUT thoughts?
Is belief a thought about a thought? A supporting narrative for something that also exists only in thought?
Here is the only thing I would advise as you watch this process:
Don't lie. Don't add anything that is not there. No story attached.
Be utterly ruthless as something tries to tell you ABOUT it. And possess it, and spin an identity from the thoughts.
That is not it.
Go till there is nothing left to possess the experience.
And then, the I can come back all it likes. Good entertainment, a story. But never again the only world you see.
Much love, Elizabeth
Re: Anyone new can begin here
Hello, Elizabeth
Something prolongs to happen :)
These hours I try to watch. Some interesting observations appeared.
I found that thoughts and IAM-sense are different things (of course I see the same manner right now, and it would change in a minute :).
First of all - the thoughts are the senses. They are not the senses in the body, may be they have another nature, but their location somehow tied with some part of the body. And they locate at the head, inside the head, at the same place where the head locates.
Another foundation is about the IAM-sense. It is located somewhere in the area of the breast. The feeling is differ from the sense of thoughts.
Then I watch one sense and another (thought-sense and IAM-sense) many times.
I found that I can “see” thoughts. I don’t see the text, but some sense or feeling concerned the thoughts appears and later disappears. I only watch.
Then I found, that all thoughts I watched this manner concerned I-ME-MY, not many – ALL OF THEM. And then while I watched this process I became to be watered down. And later I didn’t find who watched. It was. It occurred. Fantastic!
Another observation was about IAM-sense. It is also observed sense. Somehow of this sense has its own “taste” and doesn’t concerned I-ME-MY-thoughts. But if initially I could clearly distinguish some subtle connection between IAM-sense and MY-nification of the perception and as a result MY-nification of the doing, after a watching of the IAM-sense this connection became weaker and weaker.
After last session of this watching (we was at the sunset, beautiful place to watch) I found myself walking by the street, and forgotten where I live and where I am going, etc. There was no any panic, only interest. I prolonged to watch. And the MY-ness this moment was quite negligible. WOW!
All what I’ve described you here was not result of thought at all. And it was very new for me.
And another feeling. Several minutes before I “lost myself” in the street there was some strange feeling of flying or soaring. It was like some beautiful feeling of lightness in the area of breast.
Namaste
Alexander
Something prolongs to happen :)
These hours I try to watch. Some interesting observations appeared.
I found that thoughts and IAM-sense are different things (of course I see the same manner right now, and it would change in a minute :).
First of all - the thoughts are the senses. They are not the senses in the body, may be they have another nature, but their location somehow tied with some part of the body. And they locate at the head, inside the head, at the same place where the head locates.
Another foundation is about the IAM-sense. It is located somewhere in the area of the breast. The feeling is differ from the sense of thoughts.
Then I watch one sense and another (thought-sense and IAM-sense) many times.
I found that I can “see” thoughts. I don’t see the text, but some sense or feeling concerned the thoughts appears and later disappears. I only watch.
Then I found, that all thoughts I watched this manner concerned I-ME-MY, not many – ALL OF THEM. And then while I watched this process I became to be watered down. And later I didn’t find who watched. It was. It occurred. Fantastic!
Another observation was about IAM-sense. It is also observed sense. Somehow of this sense has its own “taste” and doesn’t concerned I-ME-MY-thoughts. But if initially I could clearly distinguish some subtle connection between IAM-sense and MY-nification of the perception and as a result MY-nification of the doing, after a watching of the IAM-sense this connection became weaker and weaker.
After last session of this watching (we was at the sunset, beautiful place to watch) I found myself walking by the street, and forgotten where I live and where I am going, etc. There was no any panic, only interest. I prolonged to watch. And the MY-ness this moment was quite negligible. WOW!
All what I’ve described you here was not result of thought at all. And it was very new for me.
And another feeling. Several minutes before I “lost myself” in the street there was some strange feeling of flying or soaring. It was like some beautiful feeling of lightness in the area of breast.
Namaste
Alexander
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Elizabeth
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Re: Anyone new can begin here
Ah, cool.
Life is life-ing without an I, all the while the I is imposing it's view ABOUT life. You are getting a real taste of direct experience. In the moment you are present to, the I is not there. In other words, without a thought, I is not found. At all.
That seems the same from here. But we have some more work to do.
You seem to be observing a sense of self. This is an actual interior mapping mechanism. It allows for the integration of things like balance and a visual horizon, and a location for a sense of touch (this is well-explained in the work of Antonio Damasio, among others). It is orienting. Is it a separate entity or another case of MY-nification? Like a visual perception is taken to be a Watcher, a sense of orientation is taken to be an actual entity.
And I am not sure it has, in reality, a location. Please check that.
A thought sense, please check out what you mean by that, a little more deeply. Not sure I understand it.
We are going for absolute clarity here, so that any fuzzy places are not left for the I to grow back into, later.
If you cannot see and explain it clearly to anyone, including a child, there is more work to do.
Your English and reasoning are excellent, I trust that this is possible for you.
Really enjoying this conversation, and love to you.
Life is life-ing without an I, all the while the I is imposing it's view ABOUT life. You are getting a real taste of direct experience. In the moment you are present to, the I is not there. In other words, without a thought, I is not found. At all.
That seems the same from here. But we have some more work to do.
You seem to be observing a sense of self. This is an actual interior mapping mechanism. It allows for the integration of things like balance and a visual horizon, and a location for a sense of touch (this is well-explained in the work of Antonio Damasio, among others). It is orienting. Is it a separate entity or another case of MY-nification? Like a visual perception is taken to be a Watcher, a sense of orientation is taken to be an actual entity.
And I am not sure it has, in reality, a location. Please check that.
A thought sense, please check out what you mean by that, a little more deeply. Not sure I understand it.
We are going for absolute clarity here, so that any fuzzy places are not left for the I to grow back into, later.
If you cannot see and explain it clearly to anyone, including a child, there is more work to do.
Your English and reasoning are excellent, I trust that this is possible for you.
Really enjoying this conversation, and love to you.
Re: Anyone new can begin here
Hello, Elizabeth
I think my summary is very raw yet, and I’m still in the process of investigation now. But I decided to write anyway to make you to know something about my current stage. Thus you can promptly correct my focus and help me more effectively.
Thank you for your help. The process develops unevenly. After your last letter my mind began to look for answers on your questions intensively. And it was mistake. It was old habit to seek for the answer in mind. As a result I’ve forgotten the initial state. And when I found myself in the desert of thoughts without a swallow of the peace, I understood my mistake. And I’ve begun from to search after another approach to …I don’t know how to name this.
Today I’ve found first show of the peace. I tried to discover how thought appear and disappear, how self behave under the light of the watching, etc.
Unfortunately I can’t say you today nothing more about what I named thought-sense. Shortly it is a sense, which I feel when I register upcoming thought. Somehow this sense reflects the thought, and I can focus my attention on it much easier.
The sense of self - I found that it has not constant location. Later I found this sense at the area of a throat. I think it doesn’t matter for me now. I watch the process. In this case the process can be the sense of self. And moreover the watching of the self sense help me softly unhook attention from objects and from appropriation of something in my mind. The process isn’t finished but there are obvious shifts.
Another thing was found today. The witness appeared, when I watched the sense of self. I’ve seen that I see at the “self”, at the shadow of self, specifically at the sense of self. And this looking “somebody I” looked, I would say I “felt it by my back” figuratively of course, but… haven’t find anybody. I can say that this looking I was nobody, or that was only I watching (at this moment it was the same).
Appreciate your help and wait your comments
Alexander
I think my summary is very raw yet, and I’m still in the process of investigation now. But I decided to write anyway to make you to know something about my current stage. Thus you can promptly correct my focus and help me more effectively.
Thank you for your help. The process develops unevenly. After your last letter my mind began to look for answers on your questions intensively. And it was mistake. It was old habit to seek for the answer in mind. As a result I’ve forgotten the initial state. And when I found myself in the desert of thoughts without a swallow of the peace, I understood my mistake. And I’ve begun from to search after another approach to …I don’t know how to name this.
Today I’ve found first show of the peace. I tried to discover how thought appear and disappear, how self behave under the light of the watching, etc.
Unfortunately I can’t say you today nothing more about what I named thought-sense. Shortly it is a sense, which I feel when I register upcoming thought. Somehow this sense reflects the thought, and I can focus my attention on it much easier.
The sense of self - I found that it has not constant location. Later I found this sense at the area of a throat. I think it doesn’t matter for me now. I watch the process. In this case the process can be the sense of self. And moreover the watching of the self sense help me softly unhook attention from objects and from appropriation of something in my mind. The process isn’t finished but there are obvious shifts.
Another thing was found today. The witness appeared, when I watched the sense of self. I’ve seen that I see at the “self”, at the shadow of self, specifically at the sense of self. And this looking “somebody I” looked, I would say I “felt it by my back” figuratively of course, but… haven’t find anybody. I can say that this looking I was nobody, or that was only I watching (at this moment it was the same).
Appreciate your help and wait your comments
Alexander
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Elizabeth
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Re: Anyone new can begin here
"The great way is simple"
Don't add anything that is not there. No story attached.
Because the I is a story, a character. Is the world still there when you close the book, or walk out of the movie, leaving the character behind? The character exists in thoughts for the duration of the story. Outside the thoughts, everything is carrying on without a story.
Be utterly ruthless as something tries to tell you ABOUT itself.
What we are is not an I. In point of fact, there is no I.
The illusion of a separate self is constantly recreating itself. In thoughts. Spinning stories.
It's a habit to think something is there. If you can't find, it is not there.
The witness, the observer, are way stations, a little down the road from total belief in the character.
Keep going beyond them.
Finding the I construct is not the point.
Not finding the I at all is the point :-) So we talk until it is seen that no I needs to own This.
Mistaken notion.
There is only This.
Is This enough?
Much love.
Don't add anything that is not there. No story attached.
Because the I is a story, a character. Is the world still there when you close the book, or walk out of the movie, leaving the character behind? The character exists in thoughts for the duration of the story. Outside the thoughts, everything is carrying on without a story.
Be utterly ruthless as something tries to tell you ABOUT itself.
What we are is not an I. In point of fact, there is no I.
The illusion of a separate self is constantly recreating itself. In thoughts. Spinning stories.
It's a habit to think something is there. If you can't find, it is not there.
The witness, the observer, are way stations, a little down the road from total belief in the character.
Keep going beyond them.
Finding the I construct is not the point.
Not finding the I at all is the point :-) So we talk until it is seen that no I needs to own This.
Mistaken notion.
There is only This.
Is This enough?
Much love.
Re: Anyone new can begin here
Hello, Elizabeth
Thank you very much for patience in this dialog with me. I feel myself very stupid. May be my sophisticated mind is my problem. But I’ve lost the thread of your reasoning…
Let we begin from scratch.
I KNOW in my mind all things you say. I can repeat you all your words by your words, or in be other words. But I tried to experience them. I KNOW that I is fiction. But right now I feel this stupid MYness. I can’t be not honest. I am interested only in going through the gates. I don’t need a praise of anybody, but I believe you and this forum can help this ME who doesn’t exist to find to discover ITS illusiveness.
Also I prolong to read the threads of another seekers at this forum.
Where is my mistake?
Thank you once more
Alexander
Thank you very much for patience in this dialog with me. I feel myself very stupid. May be my sophisticated mind is my problem. But I’ve lost the thread of your reasoning…
Let we begin from scratch.
I KNOW in my mind all things you say. I can repeat you all your words by your words, or in be other words. But I tried to experience them. I KNOW that I is fiction. But right now I feel this stupid MYness. I can’t be not honest. I am interested only in going through the gates. I don’t need a praise of anybody, but I believe you and this forum can help this ME who doesn’t exist to find to discover ITS illusiveness.
Also I prolong to read the threads of another seekers at this forum.
Where is my mistake?
Thank you once more
Alexander
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Elizabeth
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Re: Anyone new can begin here
You make no mistake, Alexander.
I don't find you at all stupid. Or slow.
We are obviously trying something different.
What I find with people is that the hardest thing to do is the simple thing.
It's a good sign that there is frustration coming up.
This usually means you've tried all the ways and means that you know, and are ready to try some desperate stuff :-)
The intellectual has taken you a long way.
Now I ask you to use all the energy and focus and watch/FEEL for what is moving the body, in reality.
You don't need to have a single thought about it. You don't need to stop thoughts about it.
Simple observation.
If a thought is not running life, except as another thought, can you see/feel life flowing through the movements of your body?
When the hand raises, and you move it to the left, to the right, is a self moving it?
Can you honestly say a self is doing that?
What are the implications? Go to the core of this observation. Life without the labels.
Feel /look into the movement as relentlessly as you can.
Go till it's clear.
Much love, Alexander.
I don't find you at all stupid. Or slow.
We are obviously trying something different.
What I find with people is that the hardest thing to do is the simple thing.
It's a good sign that there is frustration coming up.
This usually means you've tried all the ways and means that you know, and are ready to try some desperate stuff :-)
The intellectual has taken you a long way.
Now I ask you to use all the energy and focus and watch/FEEL for what is moving the body, in reality.
You don't need to have a single thought about it. You don't need to stop thoughts about it.
Simple observation.
If a thought is not running life, except as another thought, can you see/feel life flowing through the movements of your body?
When the hand raises, and you move it to the left, to the right, is a self moving it?
Can you honestly say a self is doing that?
What are the implications? Go to the core of this observation. Life without the labels.
Feel /look into the movement as relentlessly as you can.
Go till it's clear.
Much love, Alexander.
Re: Anyone new can begin here
Hello, Elizabeth :~)
Thank you very much for your support.
The frustration I experience last days doesn’t seem constructive for me. But I choose to trust you.
I returned to simple observation and try not to dive into the mental speculations.
So below I honestly fix my observations:
The body is self-sufficient and doesn’t need anything else to behave in a perfect manner. It is definitely now.
BUT!
Now it’s obvious after special observation that the mind can influence effectively on a behavior of the body. As a result of this influence the behavior of the body most likely would be not so optimal or may even harmful. But the possibility of such mind-body interaction is evident.
Suddenly I found that thoughts and mind are not the same. I would say that the thoughts are similar to the output commands and data at the outputs of computer (outputs = display, data output, memory, command output for the actuating device etc). And mind is similar to program complex of computer. In fact it is software algorithm which processes input data and forms output commands and data.
NEXT:
I honestly can say that I …
WOW!
Now some experience I wrote your earlier have emerged. It was when I experienced “myself” watching my life in the dream and in the awakened state, and this I was the same. I was. I didn’t see at myself, I only was. I am. And I am alone. Nobody else at all. Nowhere. And thus there is no any sense to say about I. There are no labels at all. Only AM.
It is unexpected result. Isn’t it?
There is AM. Nothing else.
BUT!
Now this AM is not connected with the experienced everything. It is like AM experience everything else… Can it be so?
Appreciate you help :)
Alexander
Thank you very much for your support.
The frustration I experience last days doesn’t seem constructive for me. But I choose to trust you.
I returned to simple observation and try not to dive into the mental speculations.
So below I honestly fix my observations:
The body is self-sufficient and doesn’t need anything else to behave in a perfect manner. It is definitely now.
BUT!
Now it’s obvious after special observation that the mind can influence effectively on a behavior of the body. As a result of this influence the behavior of the body most likely would be not so optimal or may even harmful. But the possibility of such mind-body interaction is evident.
Suddenly I found that thoughts and mind are not the same. I would say that the thoughts are similar to the output commands and data at the outputs of computer (outputs = display, data output, memory, command output for the actuating device etc). And mind is similar to program complex of computer. In fact it is software algorithm which processes input data and forms output commands and data.
NEXT:
I honestly can say that I …
WOW!
Now some experience I wrote your earlier have emerged. It was when I experienced “myself” watching my life in the dream and in the awakened state, and this I was the same. I was. I didn’t see at myself, I only was. I am. And I am alone. Nobody else at all. Nowhere. And thus there is no any sense to say about I. There are no labels at all. Only AM.
It is unexpected result. Isn’t it?
There is AM. Nothing else.
BUT!
Now this AM is not connected with the experienced everything. It is like AM experience everything else… Can it be so?
Appreciate you help :)
Alexander
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Elizabeth
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Re: Anyone new can begin here
Dear Alexander, It seems it can! :-)
That simple.
Perhaps take a day to live with this, and AS this.
See if it has more to reveal. Please keep expanding into it, leaning into it.
And then we see if we clarify it if needed.
Much love.
That simple.
Perhaps take a day to live with this, and AS this.
See if it has more to reveal. Please keep expanding into it, leaning into it.
And then we see if we clarify it if needed.
Much love.
Re: Anyone new can begin here
Hello, Elizabeth :^)
Thank you for support .
Strange state…Yesterday lightness has almost disappeared.
My brain has boiled this morning.
Nothing changed. And doubts returned. I don’t feel AM the most part of a daytime. I can remember the feeling, which I can interpret as this AM… Remember, memory, mind, thoughts – familiar well learnt intellectual procedure which fixes the authority of mind and returns identification with Alexander.
I read some threads on the forum. And try to find what is going wrong…
Alexander
Thank you for support .
Strange state…Yesterday lightness has almost disappeared.
My brain has boiled this morning.
Nothing changed. And doubts returned. I don’t feel AM the most part of a daytime. I can remember the feeling, which I can interpret as this AM… Remember, memory, mind, thoughts – familiar well learnt intellectual procedure which fixes the authority of mind and returns identification with Alexander.
I read some threads on the forum. And try to find what is going wrong…
Alexander
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Elizabeth
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Re: Anyone new can begin here
Alexander,
Let's bypass the well-trained mind for a bit and sink into experience.
You already see the mechanism, now it's the visceral apprehension.
SERIOUSLY.
Move the hand. LOOK. Take a walk, LOOK. Reach for tea and LOOK. FEEL.
What is really, in reality, happening? You don't know!
It's beyond thinking ABOUT.
it's simply opening to what is not all about an I.
With all the senses that care to join in.
Touch, balance, hearing sounds...what is real? Let life be real.
Without thoughts owning life, how does it feel?
Much love, Alexander, back to the zen wall :-)
Let's bypass the well-trained mind for a bit and sink into experience.
You already see the mechanism, now it's the visceral apprehension.
SERIOUSLY.
Move the hand. LOOK. Take a walk, LOOK. Reach for tea and LOOK. FEEL.
What is really, in reality, happening? You don't know!
It's beyond thinking ABOUT.
it's simply opening to what is not all about an I.
With all the senses that care to join in.
Touch, balance, hearing sounds...what is real? Let life be real.
Without thoughts owning life, how does it feel?
Much love, Alexander, back to the zen wall :-)
Re: Anyone new can begin here
Dear Elizabeth,
Thank you for refocusing!
I have repeated honestly the experiments with a body and objects.
When I watch without thinking about, without any doubt I can’t say anything about how the hand moves. I only watch my body, the tree, people on the street. And YES, no ME. There is watching. I don’t know and don’t understand how this watching works. It is. Right now.
“I” watch my mood as yo-yo. Sometimes a heart sink, feeling closeness of the door. Sometimes as it was in the morning the mind begin to sing old song.
All is OK, when the focus stays only on the body behavior.
What do you recommend to weaken a grasp of the mind?
Alexander
Thank you for refocusing!
I have repeated honestly the experiments with a body and objects.
When I watch without thinking about, without any doubt I can’t say anything about how the hand moves. I only watch my body, the tree, people on the street. And YES, no ME. There is watching. I don’t know and don’t understand how this watching works. It is. Right now.
“I” watch my mood as yo-yo. Sometimes a heart sink, feeling closeness of the door. Sometimes as it was in the morning the mind begin to sing old song.
All is OK, when the focus stays only on the body behavior.
What do you recommend to weaken a grasp of the mind?
Alexander
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Elizabeth
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Re: Anyone new can begin here
Exactly what you are doing.Dear Elizabeth,
Thank you for refocusing!
I have repeated honestly the experiments with a body and objects.
When I watch without thinking about, without any doubt I can’t say anything about how the hand moves. I only watch my body, the tree, people on the street. And YES, no ME. There is watching. I don’t know and don’t understand how this watching works. It is. Right now.
“I” watch my mood as yo-yo. Sometimes a heart sink, feeling closeness of the door. Sometimes as it was in the morning the mind begin to sing old song.
All is OK, when the focus stays only on the body behavior.
What do you recommend to weaken a grasp of the mind?
Alexander
The nature of reality is different from how we have thought about it. Without the character owning it, as if the character ever could!
Bringing what is real to the foreground and allowing thoughts to carry on as usual in the background.
No need to change thoughts or thinking.
Just shift to the real. What is directly sensed. The hand IS life as it moves.
The tree is life-ing.
The children running are life-ing.
Life without an I.
How wonderful. And it's already everywhere .
Love, Elizabeth
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