The Gate

Hello Olga,
thank you very much for your post.

may be we can reduce the amount of "sub-threads" inside the discussion.

Ok, let's do it :)

Coming back to our process, can you take a look (in Direct Experience, DE) on your brain running in circles? Please, don't ignore the thoughts that appear. What is trying to ignore what?
Is it really your brain or are those thoughts which share the common denominator, the thought of "I"?

by trying to observe it i can say that thoughts appears on its own and my reaction is a life long TRAINING on how to handle situations like this - it happens rather automatically - but there is SOMETHING in there new - my ability to observe it and distance and stop it, so again it projects some entity that is able to control this automatic process and reinforcing I illusion. (i - witness)

Great, is there a separate witness?

The thoughts that appear: " I should be able to learn new skills and find a new well paying and rewarding job and be safe again" are connected with strong sensation in the solar plexus and chest area. Do this sensations make those thoughts appear to be more real? Also, can we look exactly at what is "this thing" that wants to be safe? What is it? Where is it? Can you describe it to me?

but i intellectually feel that i am on a right path and there is no I - we really are in my understanding "androids" with all our feeling and reactions are the unique combination of what environment and society did to us from birth and it keep piling and storing memories in subconscious and creates reaction based on these experiences etc - and it formed our values and beliefs and personalities as a reaction to our experiences but i only theoretically think it and still I wrapping this thinking :( its so frustrating - everything CIRCLES back into I think I do wrap. and its going in circles like my other dialogues.

This exploration is about looking with direct experience (DE) to see through the stories about a ‘me’.

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label each experience simply colour/ image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell,
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation.
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought.

Just break down all experiences into these categories (which are all direct experience) and report back how you go.

Let's look at the resistance to letting go - What would happen if you let go of attempts to control events?

about being in control i think my main problem in letting go is belief that my actions result in outcome and it is being confirmed on a sensory level in form of practicing something.

I understand. Can I ask you for one hour don't do anything intentionally and just look and see what is happening. Is it true that nothing happens when you're not in control? Please share with me your observations.

so, let's examine the assumption of existence of someone in your "head,brain,behind your eyes". Does a subject doing things have to exist for things to happen? Does it exist in the DE? If yes, where?
...Or is there just pointing?

mental activity, nothing initiates them. on other hands thoughts are coming and going on their own, but they do spark emotions (that do come and go), and these emotions spark reactions and actions and another thoughts. and this chain has illusion like I decided to do it because i identify myself with the secondary reactions and thoughts as I reacted this way.

Yes, it might be tricky :) but you're on very good way! What claims ownership of the reaction?
What seems to be common in all "levels of abstraction" you're describing is "I want to...". So desire. Does desire have a form? To what is it attached? This attachment you are talking about, what is it?

:) It is understandable, social conditioning is very strong. I already asked you the questions about the control, safety and death. Now you might take a look at the "I", that controls. Can you find it? Examine your life and see, if you are in control. If yes, what do you have control over?

this question make me remember a very early childhood memory which somehow got imprinted in my brain where i think my I-feeling got a first real threat - learned about death and being unable to avoid it. i think i was 5-7 years old but i can't say for sure.

If I understand well, this "I" that wants to be in control is 5-7 year old girl? Is this girl real? Or is she just a memory of the experience appearing in the form of thought and emotion?


:) Let's take a look at your eyes. Where is the boundary between what is beeing seen and the perceiver?

boundary is very fuzzy and i can't really say its the outside of my eyes. because i can see with closed (to some degree) and opened eyes and i understand that eyes are not really seeing anything - they just a light frequency receivers and they send signals to the brian where they are being analyzed and categorized for "understanding" of what you see. when i think about seeing - i still think about eyes even i know brain processes it just because i know that eyes are the ones that makes the images appear to start with. now when i am thinking about seeing boundary it comes back into back of my skull feeling of comprehending.

Yes, but you are talking about processing information here, not about seeing. So, knowing that eyes are not really seeing anything - what is perceiving then?

Love,
Pau

Great, is there a separate witness?

yes, it feels like it is situated inside my head and is very close to a "processing brain" but it feels like they are separate due to how they feel and act Witness is watching everything that happens with me and around me. awareness of all sensory data, actions, emotions, thoughts. I remember another childhood experience where i was very upset and crying (totally alone - not next to anybody), but at the same time i had a clear presence of myself watching "another myself" crying and kind of judging if i cry hard enough for the situation and it felt weird as like i PLAY my upset emotions(and i really WAS upset - didn't play it).
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Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label each experience simply colour/ image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

i think i need more time. i kept forgetting intention of doing this exercise after few seconds of starting doing it. When i started it seems to not be a difficult one, but in a few seconds it was forgotten and not retried for hours. And it is being blocked out really silently (no visible resistance but just being dropped almost immediately). Which points to a BIG resistance since i am blocking these attempts SO GOOD and SO FAST.

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I understand. Can I ask you for one hour don't do anything intentionally and just look and see what is happening. Is it true that nothing happens when you're not in control? Please share with me your observations.

i tried. Started similar to a previous task - i didn't last long but it is also extra tricky as I am TRYING not to do anything with INTENTION to not do anything: endless loop of intention-less intention. But these attempts made me much more aware of how i am functioning through the day. I have noticed that i lived through the day mostly on an "autopilot". Morning routine on cat feeding was especially complex and automatic at the same time and i had awareness of how i performed it (i have 4 cats and i do same things in the morning every day for years. i just noticed that i don't even THINK about what i do and its a lot of actions as they have different foods, medications, change water, clean litter box, restocking,sweeping litter crumbles from the floor, etc. i was just totally doing it like breathing - seamlessly. it was flowing as a learned dance and i am almost not participating in it besides body performing these actions. At one moment i caught myself bending to pick up something from the floor and realized i DID NOT command myself to do it. my body just performed it without my intention (or it was very deep that i did not see it) i watched few other sections of the day. when i move around the house for some food or item i need, I always see some item laying around and I take it and go place where it has to be stored, see something that sparks need to do anything about this item now and it creates series of actions about it, hungry thought created a multiple choices (impulses to do something about it) and how to do it - go out buy something or find something in refrigerator, last one won as i had something else i wanted to do and didn't want to waste time etc but it was kind of autopilot feeling as well as i wasn't too involved emotionally. driving a car - a lot of times i am not really thinking what i do - all noticing, seeing, reacting happens automatically when i drive. It shows from one point that i dont really do it, from another - how small awareness i have about what i do (despite my efforts to live more mindfully in general)
body and grain learn some sequence of things you have to do and keep repeating it in a most efficient way so you dont have to pay much attention as you know how it goes. It seems like i "low the awareness volume" for all routine non important actions to not spend my mental activity on them as they can go on their own safely (even driving to some degree which is scary :)
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What claims ownership of the reaction?
What seems to be common in all "levels of abstraction" you're describing is "I want to...". So desire. Does desire have a form? To what is it attached? This attachment you are talking about, what is it?

Desire. Desire is a reaction to stimulus - thinking about how it feels in a body - i would say its some form of cloud formation sitting in solar plexus and low chest and partially connected into the head, May be it is a process or recognizing something you will feel good to own or experience (item, process, emotion?) - and it is sparking command to action - to obtain/keep/experience/not experience something in order for body/mind feel good and get some chemical feel good response. And it serve the survival (getting food and avoiding dangers or physical harm) and procreation (sex) mechanisms by creating a stimulus to act certain way to keep it rolling :)
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If I understand well, this "I" that wants to be in control is 5-7 year old girl? Is this girl real? Or is she just a memory of the experience appearing in the form of thought and emotion?

This girl felt real when it all happened. Now it is definitely a phantom, a distant memory which got reinforced by a strong emotion (burned into memory bank and bookmark for quick access was created) , and most likely not a totally correct memory (memory of memory of memory as they attach to the last time you remember something and take is as true - assumptions again:).

after thinking about all we talked so far i think i can sense where i stuck the most. (on my level of understanding of course) identifying with secondary reactions even i do understand they are pretty bubbled up as previous learned experience proven by their good results (what i have to do in this situation) and also identifying with desires as mine instead of them mostly serving my body needs? Actions where i put more attention/energy in what i am doing feels MINE, even all i did is add awareness, concentration and keep focus on what i do MORE than i usually do to other less desirable /important things. only because i am regulating on how much attention or energy to put into it and can change it on a fly - it feels like i am dialing the controls buttons :) but thinking about it - my basic desires are probably creating certain neuron and chemical responses in order to focus body on performing certain functions? i just thought about it really - so its raw :) playing with the idea.
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So, knowing that eyes are not really seeing anything - what is perceiving then

in my understanding brain is perceiving together with this sense of awareness/witness which is behind everything.
brain processes and categorizes it in addition to awareness JUST NOTICING it all. but since they both point to same experience it seems like they compliment each other.

Thanks, Pau
i discovered that i am stuck into me-illusion much deeper than i thought before.
thank you for your time and attempts to help.
Love and Peace,
Olga

ps - i didnt mean i want to close the thread, just in case.
hope you have a good holidays!
love and peace
Olga

ps - i didnt mean i want to close the thread, just in case.
hope you have a good holidays!
love and peace
Olga

Hey Olga!
I apologize for the delay -Christmas time :) I will answer you today.
Hugs
Pau

Wysłane z mojego SM-G925F przy użyciu Tapatalka

i painted few things lately, last week and a half
one new painting - meditation in gold
and 2 improvements on old ones
my deep search caused me to express myself more freely. i wasn't able to restart painting for years.
now it goes with great enjoyment. easier.

Hi Olga,

i painted few things lately, last week and a half
one new painting - meditation in gold
and 2 improvements on old ones
my deep search caused me to express myself more freely. i wasn't able to restart painting for years.
now it goes with great enjoyment. easier.

WOW, amazing paintings! Thank you for sharing them!

Also, thank you very much for your answers, they are very thoughtful! Let's roll with our process :)

Great, is there a separate witness?

yes, it feels like it is situated inside my head and is very close to a "processing brain" but it feels like they are separate due to how they feel and act Witness is watching everything that happens with me and around me. awareness of all sensory data, actions, emotions, thoughts. I remember another childhood experience where i was very upset and crying (totally alone - not next to anybody), but at the same time i had a clear presence of myself watching "another myself" crying and kind of judging if i cry hard enough for the situation and it felt weird as like i PLAY my upset emotions(and i really WAS upset - didn't play it). 

So, what keeps the identification on, is memories of strong emotions in childhood. It is very interesting, the experience you had as a child. Does it give you a perspective now on what is real? Does the intensity of the emotion make it more real? What is aware of the emotion?
Secondly, you just have identified a sensation in the head as „you”. Is it real? What is aware of the sensation in head?
------------

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label each experience simply colour/ image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

i think i need more time. i kept forgetting intention of doing this exercise after few seconds of starting doing it. When i started it seems to not be a difficult one, but in a few seconds it was forgotten and not retried for hours. And it is being blocked out really silently (no visible resistance but just being dropped almost immediately). Which points to a BIG resistance since i am blocking these attempts SO GOOD and SO FAST.

You had some time last few days, how is the excercise going? :)

-----------------

I understand. Can I ask you for one hour don't do anything intentionally and just look and see what is happening. Is it true that nothing happens when you're not in control? Please share with me your observations.

i tried. Started similar to a previous task - i didn't last long but it is also extra tricky as I am TRYING not to do anything with INTENTION to not do anything: endless loop of intention-less intention. But these attempts made me much more aware of how i am functioning through the day. I have noticed that i lived through the day mostly on an "autopilot". Morning routine on cat feeding was especially complex and automatic at the same time and i had awareness of how i performed it (…) a lot of times i am not really thinking what i do - all noticing, seeing, reacting happens automatically when i drive. It shows from one point that i dont really do it, from another - how small awareness i have about what i do (despite my efforts to live more mindfully in general) 
body and grain learn some sequence of things you have to do and keep repeating it in a most efficient way so you dont have to pay much attention as you know how it goes. It seems like i "low the awareness volume" for all routine non important actions to not spend my mental activity on them as they can go on their own safely (even driving to some degree which is scary :)

First of all, cats <3
let's focus on the part where you are not the one doing it. What is doing it then?
----------------------

So desire. Does desire have a form? To what is it attached? This attachment you are talking about, what is it?

Desire. Desire is a reaction to stimulus - thinking about how it feels in a body - i would say its some form of cloud formation sitting in solar plexus and low chest and partially connected into the head, May be it is a process or recognizing something you will feel good to own or experience (item, process, emotion?) - and it is sparking command to action - to obtain/keep/experience/not experience something in order for body/mind feel good and get some chemical feel good response. And it serve the survival (getting food and avoiding dangers or physical harm) and procreation (sex) mechanisms by creating a stimulus to act certain way to keep it rolling :) 

ok, perfect. So what is this sensation in the solar plexus and low chest connected to? Is this the place, where the thought of „I” resides? Is it real?
------------------------

If I understand well, this "I" that wants to be in control is 5-7 year old girl? Is this girl real? Or is she just a memory of the experience appearing in the form of thought and emotion?

This girl felt real when it all happened. Now it is definitely a phantom, a distant memory which got reinforced by a strong emotion (burned into memory bank and bookmark for quick access was created) , and most likely not a totally correct memory (memory of memory of memory as they attach to the last time you remember something and take is as true - assumptions again:). 

So, let's examine the memory. What is memory in DE?

after thinking about all we talked so far i think i can sense where i stuck the most. (on my level of understanding of course) identifying with secondary reactions even i do understand they are pretty bubbled up as previous learned experience proven by their good results (what i have to do in this situation) and also identifying with desires as mine instead of them mostly serving my body needs? Actions where i put more attention/energy in what i am doing feels MINE, even all i did is add awareness, concentration and keep focus on what i do MORE than i usually do to other less desirable /important things. only because i am regulating on how much attention or energy to put into it and can change it on a fly - it feels like i am dialing the controls buttons :) but thinking about it - my basic desires are probably creating certain neuron and chemical responses in order to focus body on performing certain functions? i just thought about it really - so its raw :) playing with the idea.

Great! Playing with the idea might give you the necessary distance :)
Ok, now let's look at „the good results” you have described. It doesn't matter which level we are touching now – thoughts or body – we are still talking about conditioning. I want you to look at conditioning in DE. What is it based on? What is trained to react in a certain way? What is aware of this conditioning? Are you what you have been conditioned to do/think?

-----------------------------------

in my understanding brain is perceiving together with this sense of awareness/witness which is behind everything.

Can you find a brain as a source of perception in DE? Or is it just a concept based on what you have been taught?

brain processes and categorizes it in addition to awareness JUST NOTICING it all. but since they both point to same experience it seems like they compliment each other.

Ok, perfect, we're touching awareness :)
so, you said that awareness is noticing it all. Where „all of it” is happening? Is there a boundary between awareness noticing it all and awareness, in which „all of it” is happening?

Thanks, Pau
i discovered that i am stuck into me-illusion much deeper than i thought before. 
thank you for your time and attempts to help.
Love and Peace,
Olga

Dear Olga,
please give yourself some compassion – being stuck is just a judgemental thought, which isn't real :)
Sending you love and peace
Pau

So, what keeps the identification on, is memories of strong emotions in childhood. It is very interesting, the experience you had as a child.Does the intensity of the emotion make it more real?

it looks like intensity "has to be" equivalent to whatever event happened. has to be synced due to some assumption on how it suppose to be :) and yes, more emotions makes it more "substantial and real" and longer to remember

Does it give you a perspective now on what is real?

it gives me the idea that its still the memory with has emotions attached to it that made it more significant. but memory does't become fake or false for me even knowing about it. i feel like i am missing something but can't get where to turn :)

What is aware of the emotion? Secondly, you just have identified a sensation in the head as „you”. Is it real? What is aware of the sensation in head?

what i call witness is aware of everything. events, emotions, thoughts, sensations - some witness is watching from somewhere inside the head. if you concentrate and meditate you can watch the thoughts appearing out of nowhere and in this case not associate with them. if you dont pay attention they look like you already think them (you miss the split second when you attached to them and find yourself already immersed in their flow and adding energy by following and making them yours :)

You had some time last few days, how is the excercise going? :)

not good.... it is being blocked like noting before.
every time i remember (few times a day)
i start with - images, sound, taste, pressure, thoughts .... and in a less than minute i am OFF to something else and completely forgot about it. very challenging for some reason to keep it. i do breath counting meditation and my brain was very resistant just to start it - but i did and it is better than before. really better. but whatever it is - is REALLY good at blocking non intellectual activities. i think its my brain control center.

So, let's examine the memory. What is memory in DE?

memory in direct experience is something like a flash of semi-visual information attached to emotion with some non verbal data in a first moment which turns into verbal when you trying to talk about it. I just get some blurry "feeling" that i can access this data if needed without all details on this first "flash". and then i can pull it out from somewhere in my head., detail by detail whatever i remember

ok, perfect. So what is this sensation in the solar plexus and low chest connected to? Is this the place, where the thought of „I” resides? Is it real?

this sensation is not connected to anything else really. it just contains in that part of the body when you want something abdomen almost like initiate this feeling and it is spreading up to chest and head. can't find anything else in there except i just usually (not always) have an idea what i want after it happens :))))))

Can you find a brain as a source of perception in DE? Or is it just a concept based on what you have been taught?

the only reason i point to brain as i physically feel tension and sensations in there when i think or try to do anything intellectually. and i been taught about it of course too. but i do feel tension there when i use it.

please give yourself some compassion – being stuck is just a judgemental thought, which isn't real :)
Sending you love and peace

Thank you, Pau
i am hard on myself - it takes a lot of learning to be easier and give myself compassion. even when i understand what i do.
childhood conditioning. thank you for love.

[quote I want you to look at conditioning in DE. What is it based on? What is trained to react in a certain way? What is aware of this conditioning? Are you what you have been conditioned to do/think?[/quote]
Conditioning is based on reflexes i guess. past pleasant or negative experiences which you stored in the memory to avoid bad ones and go after good ones (recognition of pros and cons on any subject you ever interacted with. and yes - some are neutral you dont have to waste your energy on.) IN direct experience - it has a feeling similar to desire - as i think it based on it - you have a cloud "gut first and then chest-head" feeling about is it good or bad. and then if you want it or not.

so, you said that awareness is noticing it all. Where „all of it” is happening? Is there a boundary between awareness noticing it all and awareness, in which „all of it” is happening?

if i could answer this question i think i can be lama already :) lol
at my current level - it is all happening inside my head as i have awareness on how i process it.

Also this one brings me into a memory of the koan process - what was your face before your parents were born. i dont know the answer (yet).

speaking about it - this is a very funny video about it - very very short.... i think you might enjoy it.
its about zen in the army :) it is right on a subject
https://www.facebook.com/thephilosphyof ... 795897553/
you dont need to have fb account to watch it (i checked)

2 additional observations
1st - when i am trying to find where awareness is during meditation, i fill an expanding feeling in the back top of my head and also kind of bubbly feelings at the side-back of the head, both sides of the scull.
2nd i had another memory worth mentioning. i used to play online game world of warcraft. for a while. when i would play too much i remember feeling down and almost depressed as i would get increased understanding that my real life feels to have same nature as the online one where i "drive" my virtual hero on the screen and also as meaningless as online one. there werent really thoughts, it was a non verbal insight-recognition type of experience first.
ps not playing for years already.

Hello Olga,

It seems that your guide has stopped responding. I will find another guide for you as soon as possible. You will receive an email notification when another guide has been found and is responding to your thread.

Happy New Year & kind regards
Kay

Hello Olga,

It seems that your guide has stopped responding. I will find another guide for you as soon as possible. You will receive an email notification when another guide has been found and is responding to your thread.

Happy New Year & kind regards
Kay

Hi Kay!
I think its holidays, Pau was away for Christmas and now its right around New Year celebration, i think people are travelling.
but i appreciate your caring very much!
happy new year!
love and peace
Olga

Pau is unable to continue with guiding you, so would you like another guide or would you like to stop?

Kay
xx

Pau is unable to continue with guiding you, so would you like another guide or would you like to stop?

Kay
xx

i would like another guide if possible. unless she can't continue because i am hopeless :)

Okay Olga...I am looking to find you another guide. Hopefully it won't take too long :)

Kay
xx

Hi Olga

My name is Xain, and I am happy to continue with you.
Happy New Year.

I will read your guiding thread through, and respond when I have time.

Xain ♥