Asking for a guide

[DanielP]

Hi Janie,

Yes I see my 'self' as the thinker, feeler, perceiver, senser but only in the sense of the 'watcher'. It is not that the 'self' is doing the thinking, feeling etc. 'It' has no influence on it by 'itself' on the thoughts, feelings, perceived and sensations. Only when more thoughts pop up and so a story is attached to the thought, feeling etc. it feels like there is identification with the 'self'. The 'self' is just aware of it all.

Good. This brings up some important questions. If the 'self' is just aware of thoughts, feelings etc. why bother with thoughts?, why the search for a different experience?, why the longing to completely see and get this? Isn't the 'self' that which is watching the longing? watching thoughts? but also watching the desire to get rid of certain thoughts?

Regards

Daniel

[Janie]

Good. This brings up some important questions. If the 'self' is just aware of thoughts, feelings etc. why bother with thoughts?, why the search for a different experience?, why the longing to completely see and get this? Isn't the 'self' that which is watching the longing? watching thoughts? but also watching the desire to get rid of certain thoughts?

Pffff good questions! I have no clue. So yes why this longing there is no reason for this these are just thoughts popping up about stuff i was reading and what i sometimes had very little glimpses of and extreem feelings off excitement of a big YES inside about kind off taking a very cool specific ride in an amusement park called human life. Or just a specific scene in 'my' movie. But why? This feels like a complete meltdown of the brain it is completly blank and also feels confusing why I can't answer these questions.

Regards

Janie

[DanielP]

Hi Janie,

Ok let’s continue. I’ll bring your attention to the fact that even though you say that your ‘self’ is the ‘watcher’ and NOT the thoughts, the sensations, the perceptions etc. There still is a feeling of identification, of doership. It feels like the ‘self’ is the ‘chooser’. Do you agree?

We’ll do a little exercise on this topic. It has to do with the sense of seeing.

All you’ll need is to sit for a few moments in a relatively calm place.

Take a few relaxed breath to let the dust settle for a while, and then:
Look on your right.
Then look on your left.
Finally, bring your head back to center, close your eyes and look in front.

Here’s the thing:
When you look on the right, the view on the right is seen (whatever that is).
When you look on the left, the view on the left is seen (whatever that is).
And then, when you look in front of you with eyes closed, the view in front is seen (I’ll describe it as a kind of black space or blank sky).
Note that even thought, when your eyes are closed, what you see is undefined, it is untrue to say that you see nothing. You are indeed seeing ‘something’ (the black space or blank sky).

Do you agree? If yes, please answer the following:

Tell me:
When the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or a blank sky if you close your eyes. No. my question is can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen?
Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?
Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the blank sky?
Can you turn off seeing?
Last question, in this whole exercise, what did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?

Regards

Daniel

[Janie]

Hi Daniel,

Ok let’s continue. I’ll bring your attention to the fact that even though you say that your ‘self’ is the ‘watcher’ and NOT the thoughts, the sensations, the perceptions etc. There still is a feeling of identification, of doership. It feels like the ‘self’ is the ‘chooser’. Do you agree?

Yes I agree.

Do you agree? If yes, please answer the following:

Tell me:
When the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or a blank sky if you close your eyes. No. my question is can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen?
Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?
Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the blank sky?
Can you turn off seeing?
Last question, in this whole exercise, what did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?

Yes I agree. No, No and No I can't turn seeing off. The 'chooser or the self' didn't choose to see. Thoughts popped up to do this excercise and seeing what is seen just happens. There is no 'chooser' choosing what is seen. Seeing is just happening.
I do sensed an 'I' wanting to do this exercise and turning my face left, right, center?

Regards,
Janie

[DanielP]

Hi Janie,

Yes I agree. No, No and No I can't turn seeing off. The 'chooser or the self' didn't choose to see. Thoughts popped up to do this excercise and seeing what is seen just happens. There is no 'chooser' choosing what is seen. Seeing is just happening. I do sensed an 'I' wanting to do this exercise and turning my face left, right, center?

Ok, so you din’t choose to see what was seen! Good. But there still seems to be a ‘sense of’ an ‘I’ wanting to do this exercise and turning your face left, right, or center. So there still is a sense of some kind of entity ‘doing’ or ‘choosing to do’ certain actions.
So, let’s explore the function of choice a little more by investigating a choice between two drinks.

The aim of this exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in direct experience. 'The choice' is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

Here's what’s needed - A chair, a table and two different drinks. Any two drinks you like are ok for this : coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc.

Preparation - Place the two drinks side by side on the table in front of you, sit comfortably on the chair and mentally label them as drink 1 and drink 2.

Experiment - Finding the function of choice

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breath and let the dust settle. When you feel ready :

1- Look at each one, drink 1 and drink 2. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare, weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
2- Count to 5.
3- Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions :
Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1, when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or these, kind of appeared by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or they poped up by themselves?

In step 2, when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front one, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give place to the count? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3, where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?
Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a feeling : ‘It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

Ok so, take your time with this one, you can also replace the two drinks with the view on the right, on the left and in center…and see if you can find such a ‘thing’ doing the choosing, for instance 'choosing' to turn your head to the left.

Talk to you later

Daniel

[Janie]

Hi Daniel,

Great experiment!

In step 1, when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or these, kind of appeared by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or they poped up by themselves?

The qualities and preferences just popped up by themselves.

In step 2, when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front one, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give place to the count? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

No, No, No and No.There was no mental function or faculty doing the 'choosing'

In step 3, where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?
Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a feeling : ‘It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

Here the answers are also No. Between the numbers 4 and 5 the word water (drink number 2) just popped up and the hand went to drink number 2 to pick it up. It is when the word I is connected to the thought that it feels like there is a entity attached to it. And a feeling can't 'choose' it is just the word I that does the trick ????? Jeeezz is it this simple??????

Regards,
Janie

[DanielP]

Hi Janie,

The qualities and preferences just popped up by themselves.

Yes and where do these preferences come from? If you were born and raised in a Jewish, Islamic or Taoist culture/family, would 'your preferences' be different? Would 'your thinking' be different?

No, No, No and No.There was no mental function or faculty doing the 'choosing'

Special isn't? We put so much effort in protecting a 'chooser' which can't be found in our direct experience!

Here the answers are also No. Between the numbers 4 and 5 the word water (drink number 2) just popped up and the hand went to drink number 2 to pick it up. It is when the word I is connected to the thought that it feels like there is a entity attached to it. And a feeling can't 'choose' it is just the word I that does the trick ????? Jeeezz is it this simple??????

Yes Janie, it is that simple. It's something that has always been the case but which somehow we've neglected or overlooked. Nonetheless we must say that the idea that there's an 'I' in charge is predominant in our culture.

Let's continue :)

So far you've describe your 'self' as the 'watcher'. You've seen that this 'watcher' cannot be defined. You've also seen that no 'chooser' can be found. Great work!

Now let's explore this whole question differently. For the sake of clarity, I'll replace 'watcher' by 'awareness'.

Read the following and tell me if you agree and please answer the questions.

In any experience, there is the experience itself (the thought, feeling, sensation or perception) and there is the awareness of it. Agree?
Can you have an experience without the awareness of this experience? For instance, can you have a thought without knowing you're having a thought, without being aware of the thought? If you feel the answers yes, how could you know?

Talk to you later

Daniel

[Janie]

Hi Daniel,

Yes and where do these preferences come from? If you were born and raised in a Jewish, Islamic or Taoist culture/family, would 'your preferences' be different? Would 'your thinking' be different?

Preferences are learned from direct experiences, family/friends, culture etc. So yes the preferences can be different.

In any experience, there is the experience itself (the thought, feeling, sensation or perception) and there is the awareness of it. Agree?
Can you have an experience without the awareness of this experience? For instance, can you have a thought without knowing you're having a thought, without being aware of the thought? If you feel the answers yes, how could you know?

Yes I agree there is the experience and there is the awareness of it.
No you can't have an experience without the awareness. It is not possible to have a thought without knowing you're having a thought. To me it looks like there has to be awareness of the thought otherwise it wouldn't pop up at the 'tv screen' and can't be experienced/'seen'

Regards,

Janie

[DanielP]

Hi Janie,

Yes I agree there is the experience and there is the awareness of it.
No you can't have an experience without the awareness. It is not possible to have a thought without knowing you're having a thought. To me it looks like there has to be awareness of the thought otherwise it wouldn't pop up at the 'tv screen' and can't be experienced/'seen'

Yep…

Now let’s now see if the ‘watcher’ or ‘awareness’ is separate in any way from ‘what is seen’. We’ll do a little experiment on hearing for this.

Hearing experiment

Here's what’s needed - A place to sit quietly and some sounds. Any sound will do, music, birds singing, traffic, rain etc.

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breath and let the dust settle. Close your eyes and listen to the sound. And from the direct experience of hearing, answer these questions:

Do you experience a separate or independent perceiver?
But going by the sounds themselves and not by thought, inference or imagination, do you actually experience a separate hearer or perceiver?
What would the hearer sound like?
Do you experience the birds (assuming you are listening to birds singing), to be independent of sound?
Don’t go by what you think must be true in order to explain perception. Instead, go by your direct experience.
But do you also experience a bird making the sound? In other words, do you experience a bird in addition to the sound?
You would be experiencing a bird existing outside your experience. But do you?
Going by hearing alone, is there anything directly experienced about the bird other than a bird-sound?
Do you experience a sound to be independent of hearing?
Do you experience a sound waiting to be heard, a sound outside the scope of your hearing ?
Do you directly experience a sound already present which you then proceed to hear?
Do you experience the sound as separate from you?
Do you experience it to be at any distance from you?
Do you experience hearing to be independent of the ‘watcher’ or awareness?
Do you experience hearing itself as something existing outside of the ‘watcher’?
Do you hear hearing?

Now think about the other senses for a moment.
Do you see hearing?
Do you taste or smell hearing?
Do you directly experience a moment when awareness is absent ?

Lots of questions but a very good experiment. I also think now's a good time to summarize your findings.

Regards

Daniel

[Janie]

Hi Daniel,

Yesterday I didn't had the time to do the experiment. For now just a quick note. What I found while driving and listening g to the radio. There is no perceiver of hearing. Hearing is just happening and there is no distance to the sound. It is just what we learned. Tonight I will look some more and answer your questions.

Before going to bed I realised that if there is no I then there is also no I in other people! That is so amazing and funny LOL!

Regards,
Janie

[DanielP]

Hahaha, yes funny indeed. I'll wait for your full answer.

Talk to you later

Daniel

[Janie]

Hi Daniel,

Here are my answers. I did the experiment with listening bird sounds on Spotify :-)

Do you experience a separate or independent perceiver? But going by the sounds themselves and not by thought, inference or imagination, do you actually experience a separate hearer or perceiver?

No there is no perceiver or hearer; sounds/hearing is just happening.

What would the hearer sound like?

I don't understand this question.

Do you experience the birds (assuming you are listening to birds singing), to be independent of sound?
Don’t go by what you think must be true in order to explain perception. Instead, go by your direct experience.
But do you also experience a bird making the sound? In other words, do you experience a bird in addition to the sound?
You would be experiencing a bird existing outside your experience. But do you?
Going by hearing alone, is there anything directly experienced about the bird other than a bird-sound?

If it was during the day and I was listening to birds in my garden I would see a bird and I would hear bird sounds. I learned that if there are birds sounds then there has to be a bird and a bird makes bird sounds. It is just seeing the bird and hearing bird sounds. The 'I' / mind connects them together. It is also possible to hear bird sounds and not see the bird. So the seeing is not needed to hearing the sounds. With seeing we have learned that what we see it has to be outside us and the same with hearing. But when "looking" at hearing then sounds are just there and it is not experienced outside myself.

Do you experience a sound to be independent of hearing?

No hearing a sound is only happening if there is a sound.

Do you experience a sound waiting to be heard, a sound outside the scope of your hearing ?

A sound is not waiting to be heard. There is no sound outside the scope of my hearing. This is just a thought/what we learned so I think it is true but it is not what I directly experience.

Do you directly experience a sound already present which you then proceed to hear?

No hearing sounds are just happening at that moment, there is no need to proceed to hear.

Do you experience the sound as separate from you?
Do you experience it to be at any distance from you?

I experience the sound NOT separate or at a distance from me. This is what we've been told.

Do you experience hearing to be independent of the ‘watcher’ or awareness?
Do you experience hearing itself as something existing outside of the ‘watcher’? Do you hear hearing?

No, no and no

Do you see hearing?
Do you taste or smell hearing?
Do you directly experience a moment when awareness is absent ?

I don't see, taste or smell hearing. I can't experience anything if awareness is absent, like sleeping at night and I'm not dreaming I don't experience anything.

I also think now's a good time to summarize your findings.

From young age I learned there was an I/me who was the doer, controlling life and choosing. Now I experienced that I am not the doer, chooser or controller of life. The I feeling only comes up when there is a thought were an I connects to it. For example a sad feeling is experienced and a thought comes up that's saying I am feeling sad. All that it experienced is thoughts, feelings, perceptions and sensations they just happen and there is no perceiver who is perceiving that or something that has control over those. I am aware of these experiences but there is no one that is aware and awareness is not separate from the experiences. When the feeling of choosing comes up it is just a thought that comes up and the brain connects an I with it saying I choose that. So in short it is just when the word I gets connected to a thought it feels like there is an entity attached to it that I called I or Me. Experiences are just experienced and life is just happening. And there is also no I in other people. This all is such an amazing trick that we learned at young age and so weird that we didn't see this before becaus it all is right under our nose when we just look!!!! I have no clue how I will live my life when I just surrender and let live happen by itself. It feels very relaxing and funny but there are also thoughts about worry, about will I be able to f.e. quit smoking, clean my house if I am not the doer, chooser and controller? Because normally I thought I needed to discipline myself but now life is just happening and it is just enjoying the ride. Pffffffff this is amazing stuff!!!!!

Kind regards,

Janie

[DanielP]

Hi Janie,

What would the hearer sound like?

I don't understand this question.

Another way of phrasing this question would be : Can you hear the ‘hearer’? But don’ worry you’ve answered that one already :)

And for your other answers : yes, yes, yes, yes and yes…

From young age I learned there was an I/me who was the doer, controlling life and choosing. Now I experienced that I am not the doer, chooser or controller of life. The I feeling only comes up when there is a thought were an I connects to it. For example a sad feeling is experienced and a thought comes up that's saying I am feeling sad. All that it experienced is thoughts, feelings, perceptions and sensations they just happen and there is no perceiver who is perceiving that or something that has control over those. I am aware of these experiences but there is no one that is aware and awareness is not separate from the experiences. When the feeling of choosing comes up it is just a thought that comes up and the brain connects an I with it saying I choose that. So in short it is just when the word I gets connected to a thought it feels like there is an entity attached to it that I called I or Me. Experiences are just experienced and life is just happening. And there is also no I in other people. This all is such an amazing trick that we learned at young age and so weird that we didn't see this before becaus it all is right under our nose when we just look!!!! I have no clue how I will live my life when I just surrender and let live happen by itself. It feels very relaxing and funny but there are also thoughts about worry, about will I be able to f.e. quit smoking, clean my house if I am not the doer, chooser and controller? Because normally I thought I needed to discipline myself but now life is just happening and it is just enjoying the ride. Pffffffff this is amazing stuff!!!!!

Beautiful! Sounds clear to me.

Let me say a few things :
Mind will continue to think (this is it’s job)
Heart will continue to feel
Senses will continue to see, hear, taste etc.
And sensations will continue to be felt. So nothing changes… Really?

Of course not. What changes is your relationship to experience. If there is no 'separate I' doing, choosing, or trying to control life, and if ‘life is living its life on it’s own terms’ (which it does) then there is no conflict. Whatever is the experience of the moment is. THIS is it.

Now tell me, do you have any specific areas you would like us to explore. Things like the feeling of being the doer, or bodily sensations etc. Or maybe you’re already clear.

Do you feel you’ve seen through the illusion of a separe self?

Regards

Daniel

[Janie]

Hmmmm yes I feel that I see through the illusion of a separate self. But it feels that it went so quick and easy that it can't be possible that this is it. A little fireworks would have been nice just to make sure that this is it. Good that you warned me upfront that this isn't gonna happen ;-). For now I don't have any questions and when I have I know how to find you.

Thank you so much for your support and gently guiding me with your questions and experiments. I enjoyed it to take this ride with you.

Kind regards,

Janie

[DanielP]

Hi Janie,

Glad to hear that!

When, in this process, someone tells us they have seen, it is normal procedure here at LU to ask others guides to read and comment our exchange.

This is done so that ‘I’ am not the only one ‘deciding’ whether or not you have seen. The outcome of this procedure is either a confirmation, meaning that they like myself feel that you are clear, or an interrogation if some things are still unclear.

So here is a question raised by one of my fellow guide. Also, please note that this question is not asked with the aim of you ‘defending your point’ but rather in a sense of ‘how do you know’.

Here’s the question :
In the summary of your findings, you said ‘and there is no I in other people’, the question is how do you know?

Regards

Daniel