Self-Control

[Sarah7]

Hi Chris

I may be on to something here . . . .

How do you feel?

Thoughts are evil!

Humour or serious? If serious please explain.
Hugs Sarah xxx

[SwissKid]

Hi Chris

I may be on to something here . . . .

How do you feel?

Thoughts are evil!

Humour or serious? If serious please explain.
Hugs Sarah xxx

Hi Sarah,

The sequence of events over the last few days, in all seriousness:

I had been feeling sad and negative about ever finding some peace and an end to seeking and grasping for everything in life. I felt really tired and tearful.

The day before, I had read some of the other Gate crasher exchanges at LU. I followed some exercises that guides suggested—some were like . . . Is this true? Yes. Then is this true? Yes. Therefore, is this true? YES of course. So I did several similar exercises. Then I forgot about those exercises, and went back to feeling sad and depressed.

Next day/yesterday, I got your message, and started to tell you how I was feeling sad and negative. Then I read my words and started to break down and analyze my words—ALL THOUGHTS. Then I wrote another sentence, and again analyzed it for what it was. Thought after thought after thought. Then something happened—very quietly.

I suddenly sat up straight and felt very confident. I wasn’t sad. My perspective changed, words started to come easily, and I felt that I had realized a completely different way of seeing. ‘Duh!!! There is no I.” It wasn't a big change--just a small but significant change.

I wrote all that you read, and answered your questions feeling light and happy, and silly.

Then I went about my day with no desire to seek, or question, or worry about anything. My day unfolded very different from days before. I cleaned house and read a book on art. My day had no spiritual seeking content in it—no desire to jump online and check out what was happening to me. I just didn’t care to. Somehow, there seems to be less thinking going on.

Something has changed. Can we talk about it?

Chris

[Sarah7]

Hi Chris
Of course. Can we do the talking about via pm? I just want to have a little look around a few other things just in case there is anything left to look at. Hope that is ok? I like to be thorough! :)

Ok so let's have a little look at seperation and sensation.

Gaze at an object. Turn up that inner magnifying glass to observe what's happening in direct experience. In seeing, what is being experienced? What is happening when "seeing" is happening? What is doing the seeing? What is being seen? What does "seeing" consists of? Describe the actual, direct experience of seeing. Do you first perceive the object using some other sense, and then see it later? Can you find a dividing line between the object and the seeing of it? Or are the object and the seeing of it inseparable? Is there an entity called "you" experiencing the seeing? Can you find a dividing line between "you" and seeing? Is it an accurate description of direct experience? Are there really three entities there in direct experience, an "I" and seer and an object? Or is there only seeing? What do you see about the thought, "I'm seeing that object"?

Try it with various sights e.g. out of the window at a distant view. See if you can find a way to separate the object from the seeing and the seeing from the seer. Where does one start and the other end? How many senses are there here - 1 or more?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[SwissKid]

Hi Chris
Of course. Can we do the talking about via pm? I just want to have a little look around a few other things just in case there is anything left to look at. Hope that is ok? I like to be thorough! :)

Ok so let's have a little look at seperation and sensation.

Gaze at an object. Turn up that inner magnifying glass to observe what's happening in direct experience. In seeing, what is being experienced? What is happening when "seeing" is happening? What is doing the seeing? What is being seen? What does "seeing" consists of? Describe the actual, direct experience of seeing. Do you first perceive the object using some other sense, and then see it later? Can you find a dividing line between the object and the seeing of it? Or are the object and the seeing of it inseparable? Is there an entity called "you" experiencing the seeing? Can you find a dividing line between "you" and seeing? Is it an accurate description of direct experience? Are there really three entities there in direct experience, an "I" and seer and an object? Or is there only seeing? What do you see about the thought, "I'm seeing that object"?

Try it with various sights e.g. out of the window at a distant view. See if you can find a way to separate the object from the seeing and the seeing from the seer. Where does one start and the other end? How many senses are there here - 1 or more?
Hugs Sarah xxx

HI Sarah,

Here we go . . .

Object: Scissors on my desk

First there is a focusing of attention and a sensation in my forehead. Then there is seeing—just seeing. There is no “I” seeing. There is no seer at all. Just seeing without caring about the scissors.Then there is a humming in my ears that gets louder, and the clock in my room ticks louder. It feels like my brain has become dull without much of a voice—no eagerness to think. But there are sentence fragments here and there in my head trying to describe the scissors to you, but they dissappear. Time seems to have really slowed down. The rest of the room outside of this view of scissors is present, and I’m aware of everything but everything else is out of focus. Thinking tries to creep in, like “That blade has a shine to it. The shape of the light on it is kind of nice” but I can’t get worked up about talking about the scissors. The thoughts disappear. I am clear that these are scissors—no doubt. The seeing and the scissors do feel sort of connected to each other, like they are related. I’m not sure I can understand dividedness, and when I try to I start to feel confused. There is not a “me” entity participating in the seeing. There is only seeing and the experience of seeing the scissors. There is not a me saying, “I’m seeing the scissors.” There is nothing saying anything, and there is a quietness in the whole experience.

Object: A bare cherry tree in my front yard

It’s chilly outside here in Virginia. I’m trying to focus on the tree. It’s hard to separate the tree from the rest of the landscape and difficult to focus on the tree. My eyes dash back and forth, here and there, and really don’t want to focus on the tree. My mind is trying to get going and say something, but nothing gets said, nothing comes up—it’s like my mind has been vacuumed. There is no dividing line between seeing and the tree or the landscape, only a lot of distraction and agitation—a whole lot of distraction, like an opposite poles magnet is pulling my gaze everywhere but the tree. The whole landscape is just rapidly being taken in, observed, inventoried. I feel like my mind is trying to say something, but there’s absolutely no thought, nothing there. I’m waiting and waiting, and nothing, no thought. Okay, I’m forcing myself to look at the tree. Looking, looking, looking. My mind has no comments about the tree or anything else. It feels so good not to have a thought—really really nice.

Well, anyway. I can tell you that there is no “I” involved in the looking—only looking and the experience I’ve described. There does seem to be a connection and no divide between seeing and the landscape. I cannot separate the object(s) from the seeing. It’s like it is one experience, one thing happening. I can not separate the seer from the seeing, although I’m aware that my eyeballs may somehow be involved, and really it’s more like “nobody” is seeing rather than a seer is seeing. Although other senses are involved, like hearing and feeling cold, those senses are there but out of focus. Time has slowed down also.

Thanks Sarah,

Chris

[Sarah7]

Hey Chris
Have a look again at the eyeball thing. Is it sensation with thought saying it's an eye? Or are you actually experiencing an eye?

Now quite a long one on hearing:

Notice the sounds you’re hearing, like the chirping of the birds. Notice the habitual thought, "Those are birds." Notice the habitual thought, "I hear that." Now just pay attention to how hearing happens. Take your time with it. Can you find a dividing line between the sound and the hearing of the sound? Are you doing the hearing? Or is it truer to say that hearing is just happening? Then look to see whether there's a dividing line between the hearing of it and a separate entity, a "you," doing the hearing. In other words, what does it mean when you say, "I'm hearing that sound"? Are there really three entities there in direct experience, an "I" and hearing and a sound? Or is there just one experience of hearing, with no one as a hearer. Look closely. Try it with various sounds. See if you can find a way to separate the sound from the hearing and the hearing from the hearer. Where does one start and the other end? So what do you see about the thought, "I'm hearing that sound"? Is it an accurate description of direct experience?
What is a noise? Is that a label also? Is the sound there? Can you really know?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[SwissKid]

Hey Chris
Have a look again at the eyeball thing. Is it sensation with thought saying it's an eye? Or are you actually experiencing an eye?

Now quite a long one on hearing:

Notice the sounds you’re hearing, like the chirping of the birds. Notice the habitual thought, "Those are birds." Notice the habitual thought, "I hear that." Now just pay attention to how hearing happens. Take your time with it. Can you find a dividing line between the sound and the hearing of the sound? Are you doing the hearing? Or is it truer to say that hearing is just happening? Then look to see whether there's a dividing line between the hearing of it and a separate entity, a "you," doing the hearing. In other words, what does it mean when you say, "I'm hearing that sound"? Are there really three entities there in direct experience, an "I" and hearing and a sound? Or is there just one experience of hearing, with no one as a hearer. Look closely. Try it with various sounds. See if you can find a way to separate the sound from the hearing and the hearing from the hearer. Where does one start and the other end? So what do you see about the thought, "I'm hearing that sound"? Is it an accurate description of direct experience?
What is a noise? Is that a label also? Is the sound there? Can you really know?
Hugs Sarah xxx

Hi Sarah,

Have a look again at the eyeball thing. Is it sensation with thought saying it's an eye? Yes.

Sounds seem to “arrive” from somewhere and become part of the whole experience, like they are being absorbed into everything else. The humming in my ears gets louder when a new sound arrives. There isn’t a “thought” of pulling apart and identifying of each sound—the sounds are just heard and accepted as they are. There is no “I” questioning the sound. There is not really a hearing of sound—there is just sound—no “I” hearing, no anybody or anything hearing, just sounds appearing, so no separation between a hearer and a sound—only sound—only one thing. Direct experience says there is just sounds. Full stop.

This might sound odd, but sounds have a spookier feel to them than seeing does—kinda like an otherworldly visitor, powerful and assertive. It feels like energy or something alive, moving, encircling me—front, back, sides. Is the sound there? Yes. Can I really know? No.

Chris

[Sarah7]

Morning Chris

Sounds seem to “arrive” from somewhere and become part of the whole experience,

Does seeing and hearing happen even when attention is elsewhere?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[SwissKid]

Morning Chris

Sounds seem to “arrive” from somewhere and become part of the whole experience,

Does seeing and hearing happen even when attention is elsewhere?
Hugs Sarah xxx

Interesting question. Assuming the operative word is ATTENTION, in my direct experience, the answer would be NO.

This is my experience . . .

If my eyes are open and I just LOOK straight ahead with an INTENTION of taking a PANORAMIC VIEW, I can still visually take in the presence of the scissors (off to the side), but they are out of focus and it feels uncomfortable to try to look in that panoramic way and try to focus everything at once. Alternatively, If I put my ATTENTION on looking straight ahead, the scissors disappear and it is easier to do that kind of looking.

Hearing seems to act similarly. If I'm sitting quietly, eyes closed and INTENDING to listen only to, let's say, the clock ticking, I will hear the clock and then when another noise comes in to my awareness, like the dripping faucet, I hear both, but oddly, my ATTENTION feels like it is jumping back and forth between the two noises, so seemingly only hearing one noise at a time. There is a feeling of confusion when trying to hear each noise equally and at the same time. It feels more natural to hear one thing at a time.

Thanks Sarah,

Chris

[Sarah7]

Hey Chris
Actually I meant does seeing and hearing happen even when thoughts are doing their thing or that kind of thing. So if you are walking and thoughts are somewhere is seeing and hearing still happening? But you kind of answered anyway! Lol.

So onto touch.

Touch the table (or any object) with your eyes shut (or open). Pretend like it’s the first time you have ever touched a table. Go straight to the raw sensation/perception. What is your direct experience of this ‘table’? List your direct experience. Is it senses again? Is it thoughts again? Look very closely. Which comes first the senses or the thoughts?
Does the sensation of touching come with a shape, density, weight, size, colour, age or function? Does this sensation come with a ‘not me’ label or ‘other’ label? Is it one sensation/perception or two?
Look at how thoughts try and take over, try and explain, try and prove. Notice your memories or references with which you compare the experience.
Sit with these sensations. Look at them. Look at the labelling e.g. table, hand. Look at the thoughts or story that attach at the end of this list if any. What is your direct experience of these words? Do they exist outside of thought? Are they sensations again? Are they just thoughts again? Look very closely. Which comes first the sensation or the thoughts? Don’t pay attention to the thoughts just look at what they do, when they come in.
Hugs Sarah xxx

[SwissKid]

Hey Chris
Actually I meant does seeing and hearing happen even when thoughts are doing their thing or that kind of thing. So if you are walking and thoughts are somewhere is seeing and hearing still happening? But you kind of answered anyway! Lol.

So onto touch.

Touch the table (or any object) with your eyes shut (or open). Pretend like it’s the first time you have ever touched a table. Go straight to the raw sensation/perception. What is your direct experience of this ‘table’? List your direct experience. Is it senses again? Is it thoughts again? Look very closely. Which comes first the senses or the thoughts?
Does the sensation of touching come with a shape, density, weight, size, colour, age or function? Does this sensation come with a ‘not me’ label or ‘other’ label? Is it one sensation/perception or two?
Look at how thoughts try and take over, try and explain, try and prove. Notice your memories or references with which you compare the experience.
Sit with these sensations. Look at them. Look at the labelling e.g. table, hand. Look at the thoughts or story that attach at the end of this list if any. What is your direct experience of these words? Do they exist outside of thought? Are they sensations again? Are they just thoughts again? Look very closely. Which comes first the sensation or the thoughts? Don’t pay attention to the thoughts just look at what they do, when they come in.
Hugs Sarah xxx

Hi Sarah,

(Eyes closed, I touched a knit cap, a table, and a paper towel)
Definitely sense of touch comes first, then a big ol’ fat BLANK brain, as if I had no interest in that thing I just touched—no thoughts to know more about the thing, and at the same time the clock tick-tock got louder, plus louder humming in my ears. No labels like, shape, density, weight, etc. No 1, 2, or 3 entities—JUST TOUCHING. It is only one sensation/perception—touching. My thoughts did not try to take over, explain, or prove. There was no me. No memories. No story. No words. No thoughts came in at all, unless I really forced thoughts to appear and to say words like size, shape, soft, etc. I could do that when I tried but doing that was annoying and unpleasant. It hurt my head and the thoughts pulled apart and disappeared.

Thanks Sarah,

Chris

[Sarah7]

Hey Chris
Ok so moving on slightly.....
Sit on a chair with your eyes closed. Feel the Direct Experience of sitting there. Notice thoughts thinking, labelling and explaining. Notice memory too. Notice sensations experiencing. Notice the sensation of bottom on chair – what is that – a thought? Notice the ‘me’ ‘mine labels e.g. this is my bottom – but look closely at that sensation labelling – is it yours, or just coming and going along with thoughts, ever changing. Is it the thought that wants to own? How many sensations do you notice? 2? One bottom sensation, and one chair sensation? How is that possible? Where does one sensation end and another begin? Locate that line. Can you feel that line? Or is that thought? Can you sense that line – or is that thought explaining the sensation?

Eyes closed. Turn your attention to your skin. Do you have Direct Experience of it being outside?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[SwissKid]

Hey Chris
Ok so moving on slightly.....
Sit on a chair with your eyes closed. Feel the Direct Experience of sitting there. Notice thoughts thinking, labelling and explaining. Notice memory too. Notice sensations experiencing. Notice the sensation of bottom on chair – what is that – a thought? Notice the ‘me’ ‘mine labels e.g. this is my bottom – but look closely at that sensation labelling – is it yours, or just coming and going along with thoughts, ever changing. Is it the thought that wants to own? How many sensations do you notice? 2? One bottom sensation, and one chair sensation? How is that possible? Where does one sensation end and another begin? Locate that line. Can you feel that line? Or is that thought? Can you sense that line – or is that thought explaining the sensation?

Eyes closed. Turn your attention to your skin. Do you have Direct Experience of it being outside?
Hugs Sarah xxx

Okay, this is a tougher one.

Eyes closed.

There is explaining to Sarah. EXPLAINING: There is a body. Body exists. Body belongs to body, belongs to itself. “I” don’t own it.

Initially, there is some in-mind’s-eye visualizing going on. That is, a picture in my mind of the chair and my bottom and that relationship—that kind of mental picture coming and going.

There is bodily sensations happening—sensations of comfort, sensations of discomfort. The sensation is of a ONE, Chair and body are one, because there are no body boundaries. It’s a little confusing, but I can not feel a line between bottom and chair.

My mind is thinking about a separation between bottom and chair because you posed the question of separation. If, on my own, I sit down, there is no separation and no thought of it. It’s just sitting. However, there is a NEXT sensation of discomfort, which seems to be another unrelated new sensation—only discomfort—not sitting. There is a thought about where discomfort is and what it is. Please note: I have a history of bodily pain in/around back and lower extremities. There is worry about pain, so that must include some memories. The thoughts pass if I put my attention elsewhere, but they come back and then go quickly.

SKIN:
It’s cold in my room, and where the skin on my arms is cold I can find the AREAS (but not the skin as boundary) where it feels cold, and I can feel sweater on my arms in areas (but not the skin as boundary). The areas are GENERAL not specific. In areas of skin that are not cold, there are no boundaries.

With bottom on chair where skin is NOT cold or uncomfortable, I find no boundaries. But if cold or uncomfortable, thoughts arise about those areas, but that does not separate those parts from the ONE thing (chair and bottom). It’s more a thought about PAIN and the body area—less about separation between chair and bottom.

Sorry if this is confusing.

Thanks Sarah,

Chris

[Sarah7]

Hey Chris
Does the pain have thought spinning stories too as well as memory attached?

Ok so have a go at taste and smell. The questions pretty much are as you have done in the three previous, you are looking for a separation between a you and the experience. I like this one, it's a good excuse to endulge! :)
Have fun!
Hugs Sarah xxx

[SwissKid]

Hey Chris
Does the pain have thought spinning stories too as well as memory attached?

Ok so have a go at taste and smell. The questions pretty much are as you have done in the three previous, you are looking for a separation between a you and the experience. I like this one, it's a good excuse to endulge! :)
Have fun!
Hugs Sarah xxx

Hi Sarah,

Pain . . . There is an experience of pain, then a thought, “It hurts. How bad will the pain get? Will it subside? How long before “I” will be unable to walk? (Look there! An “I” thought.)

I know there is no I who will be unable to walk. I know a thought can not DO anything. I know this is story, and story is just thought and not real. Unfortunately, the pain FEELS real and is a direct experience. Maybe because for me the body is real. So tell me, IS BODY REAL or is it just created by thought? If it’s not real, can you please help me dispose of it?

My mention of MEMORY in my last answer was one of assumption. i.e. If there is pain felt, there must have been pain in the past in order to recognize it (an assumption).

Tasting and smelling . . . It’s all just tasting happening and smelling happening. No taster. Nobody smelling. No doer.

Thanks Sarah,

Chris

[Sarah7]

Morning Chris

can you help me dispose of it?

Is that in response to the pain? I cannot tell you anything and wouldn't anyway. But we can look.

Are you in the body looking out, of the body as a whole or in certain part of the body?
What is our direct experience of the body? Is it the same as the idea we have about it? Do you see the whole or fragments that are collected together from memory to make a whole? And does that thought give us the impression of solidity, permanence and reality?
Are the fragments ever seen without an aspect of the world – e.g. I am writing this and I see my hands. As with the seeing exercise the total visual field – one seamless whole, made only of seeing. Is it thought that artificially divides? Is it as the TV screen, one seamless whole? From the point of view of the object – all items are separate, but what about from the point of view of the screen? Is anything separate or independent or is there just the screen?
Close your eyes and relax for a minute.
Then examine the body from inside.
Can you know, without memory and concepts, how big this body is? How far away the head is from toes? Is there a line, that separates inside from outside? Here from there?
Scan the body for tensions and look at them closer, what is happening? What are these sensations? What are these sensations happening to? Is there awareness of hand if focus goes on a foot?
Play with this and write what you notice.
Notice this, where focus goes, labelling, narrating story follows. Mind is describing what is being experienced after it has been experienced.
Now do the same exercise with eyes open. What is different? Is there a line between inside and outside? What is that separates here from there? Is there an edge to experience?
Hugs Sarah xxx