The Gate

Hi Wesley

I will bookmark the thread and back aswell more often.

Okay great, so then I would like you to read the following statement and please write anything and everything that comes up, thoughts, feelings, sensations, etc.

There is no "I," there never has been and never will be. No one controlling this piece of life, no manager. No center of experience.

The illusion of self seems be seen through already.

Reading the statement nothing is coming up, no resistance ir anything. Just a quiet space of awareness.

Recently things kind of stopped all of a sudden. Even the amount of thoughts has diminished leaving just this open space from where watching is happening.

Seems like the manager doesnt exist but can feel that the center of this experience is here with this body/mind as it is the experience being lived.

Jay

Hi Jay,

I will get back to you tomorrow

Wesley

Hi Jay,

The illusion of self seems be seen through already.

Wonderful. Did you experience a shift in this guiding? And is there any seeking?

If it's okay with you, my suggestion would be to proceed with this inquiry anyways. If you agree, then let's start looking everywhere in your experience just to make sure there is no I. We'll start with thinking.

Can you find the one thinking the thoughts?

Is there an I that the thoughts are happening to you?

Is a thought real? Are what thoughts say real?

Looking forward for the answers

Wesley

Hi Wesley

The shift may have already taken place but was overlooking the simplicity.

Any seeking, only if a thought arises about seeking but the thought is seen as just another thought. I might still get caught up in it but that must just be how it works?

I cannot find anyone thinking any thoughts, just thoughts arising. The thoughts that arise seem to be based on a lot of conditioning.

Thoughts are real but what they say has no effect on "what's happening" so they are just a conditioned response to the given moment.

I'm happy to continue the inquiry if your happy too. I have a question for you.

The seeing and realization there is no "I" isn't something that changes life all that much as it must only be the start. Does this deepen as the "I" now can be seen for what it is?

Hi Jay,

Any seeking, only if a thought arises about seeking but the thought is seen as just another thought. I might still get caught up in it but that must just be how it works?

Yes it's very usual to still get caught up in thoughts.

I cannot find anyone thinking any thoughts, just thoughts arising. The thoughts that arise seem to be based on a lot of conditioning.

Great! Good looking. Yes, they could be.

I'm happy to continue the inquiry if your happy too

Wonderful!

I have a question for you.

The seeing and realization there is no "I" isn't something that changes life all that much as it must only be the start. Does this deepen as the "I" now can be seen for what it is?

I'm not sure I understand the question precisely, can you rephrase it?

Okay great, if you're sure there isn't an I to be found in thoughts let's keep looking. If you at any point think an I may be in thoughts we can go back and have a look. I have an exercise for you:

Please grab an object nearby - don't tell me what it is.

Describe to me the shape, size, and color. If it has a smell, taste, or sound you can add that too.

Hugs

Hi Wesley

Better just leave my question maybe i will ask again later. Instead I did the exercise :)

The object is about 6 feet tall. It is green and has an overall triangular shape. It is covered in red green and gold balls around 5cm in diameter. In random spots all over are very bright objects. These are tiny but very different in appearance to the rest of the object.

Hope that was ik

Jay

Hi Jay,

Better just leave my question maybe i will ask again later. Instead I did the exercise :)

Okay :)

The object is about 6 feet tall. It is green and has an overall triangular shape. It is covered in red green and gold balls around 5cm in diameter. In random spots all over are very bright objects. These are tiny but very different in appearance to the rest of the object.

Hope that was ik

That's great! A christmas tree I presume?

Okay now do the same with "I"

Any shapes? Colors? Size?

Tell me what you find

Wesley

Hi Wesley

Yes a Christmas tree.

Now to describe the "I" lol. I like what you did here.

The "I" has no objective qualities. No size, no shape, taste, colour or anything else. It's like a ghost.

The "I" has nothing solid that can be grabbed or shown, it just arises in thought which gives it an apparent reality. When thought does not arise then the "I" does not arise, what's there is nothing, but this nothing is a quiet space prior to anything else. It's just a seeing without any thought.


Jay

Hi Jay,

Now to describe the "I" lol. I like what you did here.

;)

It's like a ghost.

It's like a ghost, yes. Let's take it a step further - what if it just doesn't exist? Could that be? Is there any reason you can find in your experience that it should or does exist?

The "I" has nothing solid that can be grabbed or shown, it just arises in thought which gives it an apparent reality. When thought does not arise then the "I" does not arise, what's there is nothing, but this nothing is a quiet space prior to anything else. It's just a seeing without any thought.

Exactly.

It's just a seeing without any thought.

Just seeing, right. Is there anyone seeing? Is there someone looking? Try this: take a moment to locate where you are in the body, where I is. I assume the answer is somewhere behind the eyes? Point to I, tell me what you find. Any I, or self, or me to be found?

Hugs!

Wesley

Hi Wesley

It's like a ghost, yes. Let's take it a step further - what if it just doesn't exist? Could that be? Is there any reason you can find in your experience that it should or does exist?

Right now im about to have a meeting about my son at his school. There is some anxiety and nervousness.

Those feelings are here and real but i cannot find an actual "I" that owns them. But there still is a sense its my anxiety and nervousness. But without thought or labeling its just a feeling/sensation.

Just seeing, right. Is there anyone seeing? Is there someone looking? Try this: take a moment to locate where you are in the body, where I is. I assume the answer is somewhere behind the eyes? Point to I, tell me what you find. Any I, or self, or me to be found?

It is just seeing. No labeling or disecting of anything. It seems like i am looking but its not true as its "on" all the time. I cannot stop seeing.
Behind the eyes is what i would have limy said. But its not there or anywhere else. Cannot find an actual "I" just thoughts and feelings that claim to be owned by an I which cannot be located.

Thanks
Jay

Hi Jay,

Right now im about to have a meeting about my son at his school. There is some anxiety and nervousness.

Those feelings are here and real but i cannot find an actual "I" that owns them. But there still is a sense its my anxiety and nervousness. But without thought or labeling its just a feeling/sensation.

This is great noticing! You have already started looking in the right direction here - What is anxiety? Can you find anything that calls itself "anxiety"? Or just a sensation + a thought - "I am anxious/I feel anxious"? Is anxiety happening to you?

Try this out, read both of these examples below and tell me which best describes your experience when looking to direct experience:

"I am anxious."

Sensation in belly, thought "I am/feel anxious."

It is just seeing. No labeling or disecting of anything. It seems like i am looking but its not true as its "on" all the time.

Can you see seeing? When you say "It seems like I am looking," what is the direct experience of "it seems like I am looking"? Could it be just whatever you're looking at (a cup let's say) + a thought "it seems like I'm looking" + sensation (perhaps behind the eyes or in the head)?

Cannot find an actual "I" just thoughts and feelings that claim to be owned by an I which cannot be located.

Can a feeling actually claim something?
Can a thought actually claim something?
If so, how does it work?
Do sensations know anything about thoughts?
Do thoughts know anything about sensations?

It's not uncommon to experience confusion when answering these questions, if I'm throwing too many at you let me know.

Hugs!

Wesley

Hi Wesley

Im fine with all the questions, Im enjoying the looking. Keep em coming :)

JayJ wrote:
Right now im about to have a meeting about my son at his school. There is some anxiety and nervousness.

Those feelings are here and real but i cannot find an actual "I" that owns them. But there still is a sense its my anxiety and nervousness. But without thought or labeling its just a feeling/sensation.


This is great noticing! You have already started looking in the right direction here - What is anxiety? Can you find anything that calls itself "anxiety"? Or just a sensation + a thought - "I am anxious/I feel anxious"? Is anxiety happening to you?

Try this out, read both of these examples below and tell me which best describes your experience when looking to direct experience:

"I am anxious."

Sensation in belly, thought "I am/feel anxious."

Reading "I am anxious" this isnt true in direct experience. There is a feeling in the belly or chest and thoughts saying "I am anxious" but in reality its is just a sensation and that is all. The thoughts added to this sensation are giving the false impression the anxiety is happening to a somebody.

Sensation in belly, thought "I am/feel anxious." This is exactly how it really is just a sensation + thought and all of a sudden this apparent anxiety is owned by a "me"

JayJ wrote:
It is just seeing. No labeling or disecting of anything. It seems like i am looking but its not true as its "on" all the time.


Can you see seeing? When you say "It seems like I am looking," what is the direct experience of "it seems like I am looking"? Could it be just whatever you're looking at (a cup let's say) + a thought "it seems like I'm looking" + sensation (perhaps behind the eyes or in the head)?

Seeing cannot be seen, whats going on here is just seeing. I may look at a cup and a thought might say this is "my cup" but in direct experience there is just seeing a cup. The rest is in thought and yes likely a sensation to go with it like behind the eyes or in the head.

JayJ wrote:
Cannot find an actual "I" just thoughts and feelings that claim to be owned by an I which cannot be located.


Can a feeling actually claim something?
Can a thought actually claim something?
If so, how does it work?
Do sensations know anything about thoughts?
Do thoughts know anything about sensations?

Can a feeling actually claim something?

A feeling is just a sensation in the body, it has no power to claim anything. The feeling is likely due to conditioning and has many labels attached to it. It feels like some kind of defence mechanism.

Can a thought actually claim something?

Thought will try to claim everything and anything but in reality it is just a conditioned/automatic response to stimulus. It is just a version or interpretation of the truth but can NEVER be the actual truth.

If so, how does it work?

It doesn't work :)

Do sensations know anything about thoughts?

No sensations are arising in the body and thought labels these sensations as good or bad, positive or negative. It is quite strange looking at things in this way. If I sit with "anxiety" without labelling it or adding thoughts it is just a sensation and quickly leaves. Adding thought to it is like the snowball effect, I can see how people can have panic attacks as they are buying into the thoughts over the bare sensation.

Do thoughts know anything about sensations?

Same as above, thoughts are trying to label sensations but really have no idea whatsoever.


Thank you for helping me to keep looking

Jay

Hi Jay,

Thanks for your answers.

Im fine with all the questions, Im enjoying the looking. Keep em coming :)

Very well!

Thank you for helping me to keep looking

My pleasure, you're doing a great job here.

Okay, let's look at hearing next. I have an exercise for you.

Sit quietly somewhere, doesn't need to be long maybe 5-10 minutes or longer if you'd like. Listen to the sounds happening and notice any labeling by thoughts such as "car, rain, dog, people, etc."

-What is sound in direct experience, beyond these labels?
-Where is the sound? Inside? Outside?
-Where's the border between inside and outside?
-In direct experience, is there a hearer and the heard? Or just hearing?
-Is there an I that's hearing, anywhere?

Wesley

Hi Jay,

It seems you're maybe losing interest, and I think you have seen there isn't an I. So if would like, let me just ask a few more questions.

Are you 100% certain there is no separate I?

Do you have any remaining doubts?

Wesley

Hi Wesley

Things have been mad over here with xmas and stuff. I will reply fully in an hour or 2.

Still 100% interested. I will complete the hearing exercise and we can take it from there.

Sorry about taking so long to reply

Jay