Guide available - Breaking first fetter / Stream Entry / Emptiness of Self

[magicking27]

Hi Xain, I do wish to continue being guided. I was without much web access for a few days. I was in a cottage.

There has been little progress because it was a very emotional trip, seeing family. But returning to this place, there is a shift.

It is all just a story. the pain is just a story. the joy is just a story.

[magicking27]

Can you describe this 'felt sense'?

Weight pressing down
Nerves feeling sensation on body
heart beating
stuff sloshing around
thoughts coming and going

Are you expecting this 'felt sense' to disappear?

I don't know!
The sense of ownership of it I guess.

You mention 'spot' and 'centre' - Does this have a location?

sort of

Where?

Where the present experience is

[Xain]

Ok, let's get back on track.

We haven't really begun the 'meaty' section of guiding yet - I'm just trying to establish where you are at the moment.

Weight pressing down
Nerves feeling sensation on body
heart beating
stuff sloshing around

Are these things tied to the body? i.e 'You'?
For example, the body is feeling sensations - So 'I' am feeling sensations via the body which is me. How does that sound?

thoughts coming and going

Are the thoughts linked to the body?
Are the thoughts personal to 'me'? (What do you honestly believe).
Is there an expectation that thoughts will change or stop as a result of the guidance here?

Are you expecting this 'felt sense' to disappear?
I don't know!
The sense of ownership of it I guess.

Through this guidance, nothing changes, stops or disappears. All that happens is that it becomes clear (realised) what has been that case all along.
It will be realised that the felt sense is not personal, nor is it tied/linked to the body or any location (although in appearance, it still may have some-sort of centre).

You mention 'spot' and 'centre' - Does this have a location?
sort of
Where?
Where the present experience is

This is the area of the 6th fetter (material existence). When this breaks, it becomes clear that experience has no centre.
However, this is beyond the scope of my guidance.
What can be realised by my guidance is that 'experiencing' is not done by the body - It is not personal.
There is no 'I' here experiencing an outside world.

Xain ♥

[magicking27]

Are these things tied to the body? i.e 'You'?
For example, the body is feeling sensations - So 'I' am feeling sensations via the body which is me. How does that sound?

Yes that is my experience, when being honest.

Are the thoughts linked to the body?

I don't think so, but no evidence really points otherwise. I don't necessarily feel like I own them though, because they continue when I ask them to stop.

Are the thoughts personal to 'me'? (What do you honestly believe).

Honestly, no, for the most part, as I recognize that thoughts are produced by interaction and are only reactive. However, in a more personal sense, yes, they seem to revolve around my personal space.

Is there an expectation that thoughts will change or stop as a result of the guidance here?

No, just attachment to them.

Through this guidance, nothing changes, stops or disappears. All that happens is that it becomes clear (realised) what has been that case all along.
It will be realised that the felt sense is not personal, nor is it tied/linked to the body or any location (although in appearance, it still may have some-sort of centre).

This is what I am looking for...

This is the area of the 6th fetter (material existence). When this breaks, it becomes clear that experience has no centre.
However, this is beyond the scope of my guidance.

Okay, so the feeling of material existence is not what we are seeing through here? I think this confuses me a little.

[Xain]

Are these things tied to the body? i.e 'You'?
For example, the body is feeling sensations - So 'I' am feeling sensations via the body which is me. How does that sound?

Yes that is my experience, when being honest.

Good. The guidance can assist with this.
This is a clear example of 'something here that is separate from life that is doing something'.

Your comments on 'thought' also are revealing, although you are clear on many things in this area.

Okay, so the feeling of material existence is not what we are seeing through here? I think this confuses me a little.

In the guidance, it will be clear that there is no separate self experiencing an external world.
However, the external world is not examined. Nor is the experiencing of an external objective world per se.
Only the belief that there is something separate here that is responsible for experiencing.
This is only the first of the ten fetters. (What you appear to be describing is the sixth fetter which is later on).

We have been chatting a lot - Would you like to begin guidance 'proper'?
If you are confused about things, it may be that confusion is cleared up by the realisation itself.

Xain ♥

[magicking27]

Yes, let's begin the guidance. :-)

[Xain]

Ok, it may be that we can go straight ahead with some deeper examination from the start, as you've already been looking at things.

Ok - Some basic guidelines.

1) Please post at least once per day - If you know you have a prior engagement and can't do this, just let me know beforehand. I will try to do the same.
It is important to build a momentum in the guidance.
2) Put aside all expectations other than the one realisation (1st fetter).
3) For the moment, put aside all non-dual, spiritual, religious and scientific beliefs and answer very simply from basic understanding. The guidance questions themselves are very simple - No analysis or mental work is required at all.

Ok - Let us being with the senses - Assumptions about the senses give the impression that 'there is a separate body here doing the sensing of an external world'.

Seeing - Just for the moment focus on 'Seeing' only. We only focus on one sense at once to keep things simple.

Right now there is some-sort of visual experience. Maybe a computer screen, a keyboard, a room, a table etc
Whatever it is, I am just going to refer to it as 'What can be seen'.

Ok. Now for your questions.
1) Right now, is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'what can be seen'. This might seem simple / obvious maybe, but please check for yourself and answer only what you can find. What is clear that can be found or not in the immediate moment.
2) In 'seeing', can an activity or a process called 'seeing' be found? Or is there just 'What can be seen'?
3) In 'seeing', can what is witnessing the sight be found? Can an 'I', a body, a Jason . .. anything at all really . . . be found that is witnessing?
Or is the only thing to be found 'What can be seen'.
(You might be able to see a body, arms, legs etc, but we are focussing only on what we can establish that is doing the seeing, if anything).

Xain ♥

[magicking27]

basic guidelines.

got it.

Ok. Now for your questions.
1) Right now, is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'what can be seen'. This might seem simple / obvious maybe, but please check for yourself and answer only what you can find. What is clear that can be found or not in the immediate moment.
2) In 'seeing', can an activity or a process called 'seeing' be found? Or is there just 'What can be seen'?
3) In 'seeing', can what is witnessing the sight be found? Can an 'I', a body, a Jason . .. anything at all really . . . be found that is witnessing?
Or is the only thing to be found 'What can be seen'.
(You might be able to see a body, arms, legs etc, but we are focussing only on what we can establish that is doing the seeing, if anything).

1. No, just what is seen.
2. No, just the experience of seeing. No process.
3. Yes, but not with sight. If I am only considering sight, no. There is no Jason in the sense of sight

[Xain]

Ok. Good.
So consider the statements 'I am seeing' or 'Jason is seeing' or 'This body is seeing'.
Is this something you can find doing it (an I, or a Jason, or a Body? If not, what are the statements pointing to? What do they mean?

Xain ♥

[magicking27]

'I am seeing' or 'Jason is seeing' or 'This body is seeing'.

I can understand this logically, but "the body" does seem to be a component of the whole process. Optic nerves etc.

"I" is not doing it. It is just happening

"Jason" is not doing it.

But "the body" is harder to understand. How could there be any seeing without the eye?

[Xain]

But "the body" is harder to understand. How could there be any seeing without the eye?

This guidance isn't about trying to understand something or deducing something through logical reasoning - It is simply recognising what is going on.

Within what we are doing here, we are not suggesting that eyes and brains and bodies are not involved in some way with seeing.
What we are looking at is whether these things are inherently responsible for these activities - Or whether they are only involved in a dependent (empty) way. Specifically, are these things dependent on thought.

If the statement 'Eyes (this body) is doing the seeing' had inherent truth, then we would be able to establish this fact in the experience itself directly and immediately. Same with 'I am seeing'.

Can you find a brain or a pair of eyes or an 'I' doing 'seeing' right now?
Can you even find an activity 'seeing' taking place?
Or is there just 'what is seen' and that is all that can be established?

Xain ♥

[magicking27]

Can you find a brain or a pair of eyes or an 'I' doing 'seeing' right now?
Can you even find an activity 'seeing' taking place?
Or is there just 'what is seen' and that is all that can be established?

No. No eyes nor I are/is "doing" seeing. It just is. It does not require either to be consciously involved.

[Xain]

It does not require either to be consciously involved.

'It'?
What are you referring to that doesn't require something?

Xain ♥

[magicking27]

Seeing does not require an I or a Jason or a set of eyes as an experiece. There is nothing controlling the process. Seeing just happens.

[Xain]

Can the process of seeing / the activity be found?

Xain ♥