Who am I?

[blackh]

Patrick,

Quite right. The feeling of an 'I' that needs to get ready for work is an idea based on an assumption that there exists an 'I' entity that controls the body.

A decision is just another thought.

That's not quite the whole story. Next time you are eating, notice that there are hundreds of small decisions being made about how the body should move. How are those decisions made? How much thought is involved? (You can also look at this question while driving.)

Wouldn't a self have to be intimately central to experience? The actions that result from the decisions are experienced, but what about the decision-making process? How is that experienced?

It doesn't feel that way, but what other answer could there be?

Yes, it definitely feels like "I am doing this." Why?

Place an object in front of you, then pick it up. Notice the sensations: proprioception (the feeling of the arm moving), touch (as the hand comes in contact), temperature, and weight.

Do it again and this time, notice the feeling 'I am doing this.' You said that the sense of self comes in many forms. This is one of them.

How is this feeling produced? What's the mechanism?


Steve

[blackh]

Patrick,

...further to previous:

I guess it just happens.

Nice answer! I missed this earlier, which is why I asked you again how decisions are made. So, don't worry too much about this question.


Steve

[Gilford]

Hi Steve,

That's not quite the whole story. Next time you are eating, notice that there are hundreds of small decisions being made about how the body should move.

Yes ok, i was getting hung up on the word 'decision' which suggests thinking. I can definitely see that there are many things that happen throughout the day that do not require consciously thinking. When i walk to work, for example, i don't have to think about putting one foot in front of the other. I don't even have to think about what direction i am going. It all just happens, seemingly without any input from 'me'.

Wouldn't a self have to be intimately central to experience? The actions that result from the decisions are experienced, but what about the decision-making process? How is that experienced?

There doesn't appear to be a process. Some actions seem to happen automatically. Some seem to require thinking. When thinking is involved, it feels like there is a self making the decision. Why do only some actions require thinking and not others? I could suggest that it has something to do with the familiarity of the task or that the self has labelled it as 'not important'.

How is this feeling produced? What's the mechanism?

If i decide to pick up the pen in front of me, i reach down and pick up the pen. If there was a thought involved, it was very subtle. I barely noticed. But the pen was picked up. So there's no surprise that i feel that there is an i in control here. So there must have been a thought first?

[blackh]

Patrick,

Nice work.

If i decide to pick up the pen in front of me, i reach down and pick up the pen. If there was a thought involved, it was very subtle. I barely noticed. But the pen was picked up. So there's no surprise that i feel that there is an i in control here. So there must have been a thought first?

We won't worry too much about how the action was caused at the moment - we'll look at that more later.

So when you pick up the pen, there is a feeling that "I am in control". We know that much. This is knowledge about the meaning of the experience, and knowledge is a kind of thought. It often occurs when the body moves.

The question you need to resolve is, why do thoughts say this? Is it because there is evidence of a real self that can be found, or is there some other reason why it happens?

Do this experiment:

Get into a relaxed frame of mind, and then stand and look at something for a little while, perhaps the view out the window. Does it feel like looking is happening, or does it feel like "I am looking"?

Is there an "I am looking" feeling similar to the one you had when picking up the pen? Or is there none, or somewhere in between?


Steve

[Gilford]

Hi Steve,

Is there an "I am looking" feeling similar to the one you had when picking up the pen? Or is there none, or somewhere in between?

I tried this experiment a number of times throughout the day and when i look, without thought, there is just looking. There is no sense of a me doing the looking. It is even like this when i'm walking and paying attention to looking. It's doesn't last too long before a thought pops up and makes me feel like 'i am looking'. Even when it does feel like this, when i look for the self that is supposed to be looking, there's no sign of it.

The question you need to resolve is, why do thoughts say this? Is it because there is evidence of a real self that can be found, or is there some other reason why it happens?

Why does thought make it feel like there is a self that is in control? There is no self but i do not know why thought leads to the sense of control.

[blackh]

Patrick,

Why does thought make it feel like there is a self that is in control? There is no self but i do not know why thought leads to the sense of control.

When you look, the thought "I am looking" only pops up occasionally, but when you pick up a pen, thought instantly says "I am in control". The question we want to answer is, How does it know this?

When you see a cup, thought also knows exactly what it is. How does it know?

What might be different about looking that makes these thoughts less prominent than with body actions?


Steve

[Gilford]

When you see a cup, thought also knows exactly what it is. How does it know?

From past experience. From memories. Through learning.

What might be different about looking that makes these thoughts less prominent than with body actions?

Looking is just using one sense. Actions use more than one sense, including touch. When i pick up the pen, i can feel its texture and can feel the weight of the pen. It feels more intimate than just looking.

When you look, the thought "I am looking" only pops up occasionally, but when you pick up a pen, thought instantly says "I am in control". The question we want to answer is, How does it know this?

Again, i would say that it's the combination of looking and sensations. This is a more intimate sense of self than looking alone.

[blackh]

Patrick,

From past experience. From memories. Through learning.

Could the mind be labelling the sensations based on an assumption "I'm in control" that you haven't questioned? Maybe that's not what the sensations mean at all!

---

I'm not sure if you've done this, but would you like to do some exercises to see if a doer can be found? If so, here's one that looks at quick decisions made without any thought:

Take two similar objects such as a salt and pepper shaker on a table in front of you. Reach for one. Look really closely for the decision point: The exact point in time when the decision was made of which of the two to grab. Can you see the mechanism of the self making the decision?

Do the same thing throughout the day whenever you have to choose between several similar things. Always look for the exact decision point, because we need to find out what your involvement was in that decision.


Steve

[Gilford]

Hi Steve,

I've taken a look back at our conversations over the past couple of days because there are some things i'm just not getting. I think that maybe if i write about it a little bit it might become clearer. I've experimented with looking and can see that often there is a sense of just seeing rather that an 'i' that is 'doing seeing'.

When i examine a task that i'm doing where an action is involved, there is a stronger sense of 'i am doing'. To help me understand, i like to break things down. So, there are 2 parts to this: 1) there is a decision to do something, and 2) that action takes place. In both cases it feels like there is a 'me' deciding and doing. I've seen that, under close examination, that there is very little thought involved in the decision. It happens so quickly. But there is still a sense of 'me' making the decision. There is a sense of 'me' doing the action.

Is there a me in control? No, there is no self doing these things. Is this just an assumption because it's been taking for granted and never examined before? This is likely. So instead of an action happening, the mind is labeling the experience as 'i am doing the action'. Are there any more mechanisms by the mind at play here? I haven't been able to detect anything else yet.

[blackh]

Patrick,

So, there are 2 parts to this: 1) there is a decision to do something, and 2) that action takes place. In both cases it feels like there is a 'me' deciding and doing.

This is a good way to break it down. Sometimes they're close together in time but the assumption "I am an entity inside the body acting" is built on top of each one in a different way, and they reinforce each other.

I've seen that, under close examination, that there is very little thought involved in the decision. It happens so quickly.

The salt and pepper shaker exercise is for demonstrating this, so do it if you're not clear on this point.

The body acts from decisions made through a complex process based on the senses + thought + conditioning. It is possible to eat without thinking at all. This is a complex physical action. This demonstrates that the senses influence decisions directly. The effect of thought on actions works in a similar way as the effect of the senses does. (It doesn't directly cause actions.)

The senses influence thought, and through them, actions influence thought as we've been discussing.

But there is still a sense of 'me' making the decision. There is a sense of 'me' doing the action.

In non-duality circles this is often referred to as 'claiming'. Everything thought says is nothing but a claim, a story, a narrative. Sometimes accurate enough to be useful but 100% fiction.

Is there a me in control? No, there is no self doing these things. Is this just an assumption because it's been taking for granted and never examined before? This is likely.

The objective here is for you to decide this question with certainty.

So instead of an action happening, the mind is labeling the experience as 'i am doing the action'.

Exactly - claiming.

Are there any more mechanisms by the mind at play here? I haven't been able to detect anything else yet.

My answer is no, but you shouldn't take my word for it, so we'll revisit this from a different angle later.

I have one more exercise on 'the doer' that I'll give you soon to help cement this understanding. I also need to ask you about expectations, because this is really important. In your intro, you wrote...

To be done with seeking. To finally recognize who I really am, whom I have always been and always will be. To wake up from the illusion of self permanently, instead of just seeing glimpses here and there.

Questions:
Is it possible that there is no "who I really am" at all?
What will waking up be like?
What will life be like without an illusion of self?


Steve

[Gilford]

The salt and pepper shaker exercise is for demonstrating this, so do it if you're not clear on this point.

Yes i have tried it a few times and will continue to do so. So far i've found it perplexing.

The body acts from decisions made through a complex process based on the senses + thought + conditioning. It is possible to eat without thinking at all. This is a complex physical action. This demonstrates that the senses influence decisions directly. The effect of thought on actions works in a similar way as the effect of the senses does. (It doesn't directly cause actions.)

Interesting. I will look at this further.

What will waking up be like?

I imagine it will be like i forgot something important and just remembered it.

What will life be like without an illusion of self?

I don't expect things to change too much. I used to have different expectations but i don't anymore. I don't know where the desire is coming from but i know i can't stop it. I imagine that there will be a greater feeling of everything just happening rather that 'i am doing'. A lot less pressure on me because there is no me. Also, no more seeking.

Is it possible that there is no "who I really am" at all?

Yes. Not too long ago i was trying to sense who i really am because i was told that i am really just awareness. But i realized i had just swapped out the 'self' with 'awareness'. Instead of thinking that a 'self' was looking i was trying to get a sense of 'awareness' looking. But i am learning that no one is looking. There is just looking

[blackh]

Patrick,

Yes i have tried it a few times and will continue to do so. So far i've found it perplexing.

Stick with it for a bit longer. Look for that decision point. These 'doer' exercises are the hardest ones, but they're also the most valuable.

Interesting. I will look at this further.

I have a second exercise that is good for seeing this, but it's even harder and more valuable than the salt shaker one. So we'll come to that.

I imagine it will be like i forgot something important and just remembered it.

The thing is, you can't know what it will be like, and I can't even know what it will be like for you, because it's different for everyone, but there are certain signs. I can say that for me it wasn't really like you describe. The important thing is to keep an open mind so you don't miss anything important. Also be aware of subconscious expectations - they can be problematic too.

I don't expect things to change too much. I used to have different expectations but i don't anymore. I don't know where the desire is coming from but i know i can't stop it. I imagine that there will be a greater feeling of everything just happening rather that 'i am doing'. A lot less pressure on me because there is no me. Also, no more seeking.

These are quite reasonable expectations. The "no more seeking" thing is a hallmark of this shift, but it doesn't necessarily stop dead. There can be a lot of inertia so it can take a little while to wind down.

But i am learning that no one is looking. There is just looking

Great. Just keep an open mind. We'll look at this some more.

----

Expectations are REALLY important, so thanks for that. I'll leave you with that salt shaker exercise. Give it a bit of perseverance and tell me what you find, even if it's frustration.


Steve

[Gilford]

I'll leave you with that salt shaker exercise. Give it a bit of perseverance and tell me what you find, even if it's frustration.

Before i grab the shakers, i don't notice any thought or any decision being made. I can feel my hand move toward one of them and as soon as it begins to move, there's a thought / feeling that i have chosen the object. After doing it a few times, it seems there is movement first, thought later. But it's almost instantaneous. I'm not sure if this is correct, but it is how it seems now. I would have guessed previously that it would be the other way round.

[blackh]

Patrick,

Excuse the delay. I managed to miss the notification that you had posted.

You're doing really well with it. Of course, you can think beforehand which one to pick, and that is the one that will be grabbed, but you've understood that this exercise is about what happens when you start trying to grab one without thinking first. It's probably worthwhile for you to try this a few more times and really look for the exact point of the decision. Can you see it being made? You have to watch really carefully.

You can also look at this in daily life, whenever you have a choice of two things.

But I don't want to make this boring, so maybe I'll leave you to work on that and we can look at some other things.

At the beginning you said this:

How do you find something that doesn't exist?! You don't, obviously. So why do i look for something that doesn't exist? In the hope that one of these times the penny drops?

You already know how to search for something that exists, like your keys. What we are doing is basically the same method, except it's more like searching for a unicorn in your house. The method has to be modified slightly: We know exactly what keys are like, but this is not true of unicorns. One approach that avoids this issue is to look at what makes you think there is a unicorn, and then investigate whether the unicorn you expect is really there. Perhaps there are small deposits of rainbow stuff appearing randomly behind the furniture. We need to find out when they appear and why.

We do know a few things about selves. One thing is that they are meant to turn up when actions are performed or decisions are made. So we set a trap, called the "shaker exercise". So keep going with this until you get a clear view of what is really there, and what is a thought about what is really there.

Right at the beginning you also talked about feeling like a self when you were in a quandary about whether you had enough time to reply to me before meeting your friend. So there's another one. Do you now think that was a self, or just thoughts about a self, or are you not sure?

So, take a survey of your daily life and see if you can tell me another place where the self shows up, and we can investigate.


Steve

[Gilford]

Excuse the delay. I managed to miss the notification that you had posted.

No problem, i understand. I really appreciate how generous you have been with your time. Thank you.

So, take a survey of your daily life and see if you can tell me another place where the self shows up, and we can investigate.

Here are some that come to mind:

• - Desires: When i'm not happy about something and i want to change it - This suggests that there can be a self that is unhappy and a self that has control.
  - When i am speaking with people.
  - When i am in work need to focus on something.
  - If someone challenges me and i get defensive. Sometimes there is a need to explain why i did something.
  - If someone praises me in some way.
  - When emotions arise and they go unnoticed.
  - A frequent one lately, is imagining situations where i am explaining spriritual ideas to a friend or someone else. Sometimes i think that i would like to 'help' other people figure out the truth but i know this is just the ego wanting to appear knowledgeable in the eyes of other people.
  - When i am making plans.
  - When i experience fear (stress, anxiety, worry).
  - When i work on self improvement.

I noticed that i often see my self through other peoples eyes. This has died down a lot in the last couple of years. But, i used to be so concerned about how other people see me and this still exists. I want to be seen as; a nice guy, a funny guy, a smart guy, a good employee, a caring friend, an interesting person, a good son / brother / uncle.....

It's so exhausting being this or that. It must be so nice to just be.