The Gate

Thank you for being patient with me. I am really trying.

Ok you're right: When I closed my eyes and tried to imagine me, I imagined the body.
I will call "I" the body/mind from now on.

Free will...
I really truly believe this:

Every word that I am going to choose to say next is based on my experience from the past and many other factors.
At this moment I don't know what will I write on the last line on this paragraph.
I believe that every cell of the body, nature, DNA, neighborhood, life situations, hormones etc contribute to the choice.

E.g. I switched my leg positions 2 seconds ago, but I noticed that just right now... I had no free will to decide otherwise. It just happened spontaneously.

Even if I think I have choice and consciously stand up and close the window in my room now, that is a decision of millions of inner and outer processes. If I would think that I have free will, I will be lying to myself.
If I think I have free will - that thought itself is a product of millions of inner and outer circumstances/processes.

So my current experience is:
I know I have no free will, but I still feel separate... I feel like an observer of the world.

Thank you Xain. I am very grateful that you're helping me.

Ok, so there is no 'I' here right now that has choice / free-will.

What about control?
Is there an 'I' here that is controlling the movement of the eyes scanning across the page, or the hands as they type messages?
Does the body do that? (Controls itself)

What about an 'I' experiencing the world? Seeing, hearing, feeling?
Does the body do that? (Operates the senses)

What about an 'I' imagining things, or 'thinking'?
Does the body do that? (Imagines and thinks)

Xain ♥

What about control?
Is there an 'I' here that is controlling the movement of the eyes scanning across the page, or the hands as they type messages?
Does the body do that? (Controls itself)

My direct experience:
It feels like eyes are doing that without "I"... Hands are doing that without "I"... It feels like it's impossible for "I" to have control over everything at the same time [sitting, seeing, hearing, typing, thinking next words ...].
Thought came later - "I did that", but when hands were typing there was no "I"...
Another thought came later -"Hands are part of the body, body = I, I did the typing".
Hmm... As I am typing, I realised it is impossible for "I" to have control over every finger so fast... It is just happening.

What about an 'I' experiencing the world? Seeing, hearing, feeling?
Does the body do that? (Operates the senses)

I closed my eyes... Hearing is just happening. Feeling is just happening. Seeing blackness with my eyes closed is just happening.

I opened my eyes... Now I see the body and a thought came that images, sounds or feelings are happening to the body.
But I don't know what/who is operating the senses.

What about an 'I' imagining things, or 'thinking'?
Does the body do that? (Imagines and thinks)

This one is a little trickier. I spent 20 minutes looking and realised that thinking is just happening. Thought are just coming.

But when it comes to intentionally imagining things e.g. Orange - that feels like it is doing by separate "I".

Miro

My direct experience:
It feels like eyes are doing that without "I" . . .

I going to have to drag you back to the initial question here.
I am currently asking you what you believe 'I' is, in the most simple terms possible.

Perhaps I can change tack a little here, to try to help you.
From now on, instead of just using 'I' or 'Me' or 'Miro', I shall use the term 'ANYTHING SEPARATE'.

So I am asking you if you believe there is 'Anything Seperate' responsible for things here right now.

So from what you said:
'Eyes' are doing something. They are doing the seeing.
Hands are doing something. They are doing the typing.

But when it comes to intentionally imagining things e.g. Orange - that feels like it is doing by separate "I".

Ok, so there is something separate responsible for imagining.
Do you believe there is something separate responsible for 'thinking' also?

Any others you believe?

I am not asking you to deeply examine anything at the moment, or to try to 'work it out'.
I'm simply asking you what 'separate thing' you believe is here right now that is responsible for something.

Xain ♥

I going to have to drag you back to the initial question here.
I am currently asking you what you believe 'I' is, in the most simple terms possible.

Perhaps I can change tack a little here, to try to help you.
From now on, instead of just using 'I' or 'Me' or 'Miro', I shall use the term 'ANYTHING SEPARATE'.

So I am asking you if you believe there is 'Anything Seperate' responsible for things here right now.

So from what you said:
'Eyes' are doing something. They are doing the seeing.
Hands are doing something. They are doing the typing.

Yes. I believe hands are doing the typing. Eyes are doing the seeing.

Ok, so there is something separate responsible for imagining.
Do you believe there is something separate responsible for 'thinking' also?

Any others you believe?

I am not asking you to deeply examine anything at the moment, or to try to 'work it out'.
I'm simply asking you what 'separate thing' you believe is here right now that is responsible for something.

The mind is responsible for thinking. The mind is responsible for imaging as well.

Hmm, just now I realised that I ultimately believe the mind is responsible for everything. Even for body movements & senses.
It just feels like there is something doing all that...

Thank you.

Miro.

Yes. I believe hands are doing the typing. Eyes are doing the seeing.

Ok - What about hearing? Ears?
What about feeling? (The body / The skin?)

Hmm, just now I realised that I ultimately believe the mind is responsible for everything. Even for body movements & senses.

Is the mind responsible for seeing? (The sense of sight) or the eyes?
We are drifting a bit here.

If you close and open your eyes, what is responsible for that? What is in control of that?
You are suggesting the mind is responsible for that (body movements) - Is that right?

Xain ♥

Is the mind responsible for seeing? (The sense of sight) or the eyes?

It feels like all the senses must appear "somewhere". It's like a mind is a screen in which senses, emotions, sounds, images are appearing. The mind operates through eyes, ears... Sending signals, receiving signals.

If you close and open your eyes, what is responsible for that? What is in control of that?

The mind is responsible for that... giving signals to eyes.

You are suggesting the mind is responsible for that (body movements) - Is that right?

Strange that I can't see the mind in my direct experience. But something tells me that the mind is responsible for everything - even for body movements. Mind [brain] is giving signals to muscles...

Ok - What about hearing? Ears?
What about feeling? (The body / The skin?)

The mind... The screen of "everything".

Miro

The list I would give you are the senses (seeing, hearing, smell, taste and touch), control over the body, and choice / decisions / free-will, thinking and imagining.
Is the mind responsible for all of those?

Is there anything that the mind is not responsible for?

Mind [brain] is giving signals to muscles...

Ok - This is 'control over the body'

How are the Mind and Brain linked, as you have suggested here?
Is 'mind' another word for 'brain' - Or are they different?

Xain ♥

The list I would give you are the senses (seeing, hearing, smell, taste and touch), control over the body, and choice / decisions / free-will, thinking and imagining.
Is the mind responsible for all of those?

Mind is responsible for everything on the list except free will. Mind doesn't have a free will. Everything inside the mind is just happening with no free will. Not only all the internal stuff has no free will, but everything in external world have NO FREE WILL as well.

Mind feels like an experiencer of everything on the list, as well as creator of everything on the list.

Is there anything that the mind is not responsible for?

Mind is not responsible for the external stuff [weather etc...]

How are the Mind and Brain linked, as you have suggested here?
Is 'mind' another word for 'brain' - Or are they different?

Brain is container for the mind. Yes they are basically the same.

I don't even know what the mind is... It just feels that everything on the list you have written, must be appearing in something... It's like some kind of a 3D screen where everything is possible...

It feels like The Mind contains everything from your list AND everything in it has no free will... Everything in it is self-controlling itself by cause and effect...

Thank you.

Miro

Ok.

Well, we know what a brain is - An organ inside the head.
Science tells us that it is responsible for many things / processes.

What about 'mind' - What is that in your descriptions?

Everything inside the mind is just happening with no free will.

You said 'inside the mind' - Where exactly is this location?

How exactly is it known that the mind has no free-will?
Is the mind 'owned'? Could you say 'My mind'?
Is the mind linked to the body in some way?

I am still assuming that you are referring to what you currently believe in simple terms, as was originally requested.
You truly believe there is a mind that is responsible for the things mentioned, and you truly believe the mind has no free-will.

Xain ♥

Ok.

Well, we know what a brain is - An organ inside the head.
Science tells us that it is responsible for many things / processes.

What about 'mind' - What is that in your descriptions?

I give you an example: The Mind is like The School

The School is a label for books, students, walls...
"The School" itself only exists as a label.

The Mind is a label for thinking, experiencing, emotions, memories etc...
"The Mind" itself only exists as a label.

You said 'inside the mind' - Where exactly is this location?

If I chop off arms, legs, and remove some of my organs, the mind is still there.
It seems like the mind is in the head - in the brain. e.g. when I am thinking too much, head [brain] starts to hurt etc...
In my direct experience, there is the mind located only in the thought. All I can know about the mind is from the thought.

How exactly is it known that the mind has no free-will?

The mind is programmed form the birth...
e.g. When the mind is choosing something AT THIS MOMENT, it takes into account its whole memory, whole past, possible future plans, emotions, DNA, childhood, neighborhood, weather, money situation etc... And then makes decision.

The mind even created this "anything separate". The mind had no free will when was creating separate self.... I believe that the biggest causes were environment, parents, language...

Is the mind 'owned'? Could you say 'My mind'?
Is the mind linked to the body in some way?

Yes, it feels "MY" because I can feel only my emotions/senses/thoughts, not emotions/senses/thoughts of others...
It feels somehow linked to this body.

E.g. The mind can experience a pain only in this one body, not in other body.
or: The mind has control over movement of this body only, not the body of other people.

Thank you Xain.

I really appreciate what you're doing.

Miro

"The Mind" itself only exists as a label

But you said that the mind is responsible for all those things you told me about.
Once again, I am asking you for your honest beliefs.
Do you believe something that only exists as a label does things?
How is such a thing possible?

If I chop off arms, legs, and remove some of my organs, the mind is still there.

With respect, you will only ever know this to be true if you cut them off / remove them.
Until then, it is only an assumption.

When the mind is choosing something AT THIS MOMENT . . .

How can the mind choose when it has no free-will (as you previously told me)?

The mind can experience a pain only in this one body, not in other body.

Let me be clear then . . . if I stab you in your arm, the mind will experience the pain . . . the pain won't be felt in your arm?
Is that right?

I am not being flippant, but you seem to be jumbled/confused with a lot of what you are telling me here.
I cannot begin guiding you until I have a strong basis of what you understand the word 'I' to points to.

This isn't about things you've been taught by non-dual teachers or what you have read in books.
This could be the reason why things appear confused.

In the phrase, 'I am going out to the shops, and I am going to buy a bottle of milk' could you translate that directly to 'Mind is going to the shops, and mind is going to buy a bottle of milk'?

Xain ♥

But you said that the mind is responsible for all those things you told me about.
Once again, I am asking you for your honest beliefs.
Do you believe something that only exists as a label does things?
How is such a thing possible?

That is something I don't know. Mind can't be directly experienced. Everything I know about a mind are some learned concepts.

With respect, you will only ever know this to be true if you cut them off / remove them.
Until then, it is only an assumption.

Yes. Many of your questions can be answered only as assumptions. Many of them are not observable in direct experience.

When the mind is choosing something AT THIS MOMENT . . .

How can the mind choose when it has no free-will (as you previously told me)?

Choosing is happening with no free will. It's the same as a wind blowing with no free will.

Let me be clear then . . . if I stab you in your arm, the mind will experience the pain . . . the pain won't be felt in your arm?
Is that right?

Maybe I am just stuck on some scientific knowledge... Scientists tell us the brain sends some pain signals to body parts...

I am not being flippant, but you seem to be jumbled/confused with a lot of what you are telling me here.
I cannot begin guiding you until I have a strong basis of what you understand the word 'I' to points to.

This isn't about things you've been taught by non-dual teachers or what you have read in books.
This could be the reason why things appear confused.

In the phrase, 'I am going out to the shops, and I am going to buy a bottle of milk' could you translate that directly to 'Mind is going to the shops, and mind is going to buy a bottle of milk'?

"I am going out to the shops" sounds better than Mind... It's just the language...

"I" is in every thought:
I have a past. I have some personality. I have some future plans. I have identity. I am sitting on a chair. I sometimes experience a fear, joy, excitement. I am 29 years old. I am tall and handsome. I am hungry.

All that are just thoughts.

There is no "I" controlling anything... The body controls itself. There is no need for some "I" to control anything.

When is something happening, there is no "I".

"Eating is happening" feels more true than "I am eating".
I am not typing. Typing is happening.
I don't know how the body processes work, hands are just typing... Better say the fingers are just in the right place at the right time and key-presses are happening... No one is doing anything. Life is just doing its thing. I don't know how but it is happening.
Thought comes that the brain is sending some signals to fingers. That is just a thought. That's just a memory from 10 years ago when I was watching some documentary about the brain.

I am really trying and I can't find the "I"... It's just a word in a language..

I truly believe that there's no free will.
And I know that "I" is just a label. Label can't control anything.

I spent many many hours imagining life situations where "I" is felt, but I can't find any! There is no "I" doing anything. There may be brain doing something, but I don't know if that is true.

Yes. Many of your questions can be answered only as assumptions. Many of them are not observable in direct experience.

Ok, that is fair.
So what is not an assumption at the moment for you?
What is the 'sticking point' where the 'real' I is? Please be honest.
It seems one of the things you want to examine is 'Mind'. Yes?

Choosing is happening with no free will. It's the same as a wind blowing with no free will.

I wouldn't argue with you - But if you are certain of this, how do you know this is true?

I truly believe that there's no free will.
And I know that "I" is just a label. Label can't control anything

Ok. I understand you.
So can you explain exactly where the problem is?
Where do you feel you are stuck in your understanding at the moment?

Xain ♥

I cannot begin guiding you until I have a strong basis of what you understand the word 'I' to points to.

Xain is it possible that the shift has already happened?
How can I find something that only exists in thoughts? "I" only exists in thoughts. It's not possible to find it elsewhere.
And if there was some "I", how could it control anything when there's no free will?

Better say, how could anything control something? When everything is happening by cause and effect, there is no thing doing other thing.... Reaction is just happening.

I am little puzzled right now...

Ok, that is fair.
So what is not an assumption at the moment for you?
What is the 'sticking point' where the 'real' I is? Please be honest.
It seems one of the things you want to examine is 'Mind'. Yes?

Everything I experience in my direct experience is not an assumption.
Xian I am being really honest now... "I" exists only in thoughts. The "I" is real only as a label...
All I can know is that the mind is a concept. It is not real. What is the point of examining something that is not real?
I re-read some of my previous posts and I can't believe how I have presumed the mind is real... It doesn't make a sense anymore.. It's just a concept...

Choosing is happening with no free will. It's the same as a wind blowing with no free will.

I wouldn't argue with you - But if you are certain of this, how do you know this is true?

From my direct experience. Observing my actions, thoughts, patterns... Or when I realised that all my past experiences or decisions were based on experiences that had happened before them. Everything happens by cause and effect. There were millions of causes that led me to discover Liberation Unleashed.

I truly believe that there's no free will.
And I know that "I" is just a label. Label can't control anything

Ok. I understand you.
So can you explain exactly where the problem is?
Where do you feel you are stuck in your understanding at the moment?

I think I get it all. What do you think?