Hi :) Can somebody scratch me

[Sarah7]

Hey Mac
Yes the site sometimes logs you out before you have finished! Its best to save what you are going to say somewhere and copy/paste it across.

decisions are either thought or automatic.

Do you mean thoughts make decisions? Do you experience thoughts thinking?
Look forward to the rest! :)
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Mac2]

Hi Sarah

Previous post continued..

What is doing the seeing? What is being seen? What does "seeing" consists of?

Just the light from an object hitting the eye, and being interpreted by the brain. Then the " Mind " may or may not stick a label on it.

Describe the actual, direct experience of seeing. Do you first perceive the object using some other sense, and then see it later?

I suppose I could hear my dog walking toward me and know what the object will be, before I see it.

Can you find a dividing line between the object and the seeing of it? Or are the object and the seeing of it inseparable?

Not sure about this one, they are inseparable in direct experience but that's kind of the definition of seeing. It's a bit like saying " Can you sit on a chair without sitting on it ? ". If that makes sense :)

Is there an entity called "you" experiencing the seeing? Can you find a dividing line between "you" and seeing? Is it an accurate description of direct experience? Are there really three entities there in direct experience, an "I" and seer and an object? Or is there only seeing? What do you see about the thought, "I'm seeing that object"?

I can't find a dividing line between "me" and seeing, It feels like there's 2 things. " Seeing " and " Objects ".

Try it with various sights e.g. out of the window at a distant view. See if you can find a way to separate the object from the seeing and the seeing from the seer. Where does one start and the other end? How many senses are there here - 1 or more?

I can't separate the seer from the seeing, but the object still exists without me seeing it.
Great questions, thanks again :)
Cheers Mac

[Mac2]

Do you mean thoughts make decisions? Do you experience thoughts thinking?

The thoughts are an after effect of what is already unconsciously decided. The mind (thought process) is just pumping out thoughts from memory, past experience, current enviroment and emotional state.
Cheers

[Sarah7]

Hey Mac

Just the light from an object hitting the eye, and being interpreted by the brain.

What is actually experienced? Not what you have been told or read please.

they are inseparable in direct experience

Lovely.

It feels like there's 2 things. " Seeing " and " Objects ".

Is that thought? Whilst just looking can it be anything else?

but the object still exists without me seeing it.

How do you know without thought though? Im not saying they aren't there by the way - just how do you know? What tells you by looking that an object is there?

Does seeing happen even when attention is elsewhere?

I suppose I could hear my dog walking toward me and know what the object will be, before I see it.

Notice the sounds you’re hearing, like the chirping of the birds. Notice the habitual thought, "Those are birds." Notice the habitual thought, "I hear that." Now just pay attention to how hearing happens. Take your time with it. Can you find a dividing line between the sound and the hearing of the sound? Are you doing the hearing? Or is it truer to say that hearing is just happening? Then look to see whether there's a dividing line between the hearing of it and a separate entity, a "you," doing the hearing. In other words, what does it mean when you say, "I'm hearing that sound"? Are there really three entities there in direct experience, an "I" and hearing and a sound? Or is there just one experience of hearing, with no one as a hearer. Look closely. Try it with various sounds. See if you can find a way to separate the sound from the hearing and the hearing from the hearer. Where does one start and the other end? So what do you see about the thought, "I'm hearing that sound"? Is it an accurate description of direct experience?
What is a noise? Is that a label also? Is the sound there? Can you really know?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Mac2]

Hi Sarah

In direct experience " seeing " and " hearing " I agree are just that. There is just the experience of it in the now.
They exist together as the totality of the particular subjective experience.
Also I can cover my ears or my eyes (in direct experience) which without thought or knowledge creates a division between the source, and the receiver (me).
I view the universe etc... as a single " thing " but for anything to happen or to be experienced, a some what of a duality is experienced, by necessity maybe.
I agree with what you say, but where is this line of questioning going ? Like I mentioned before it's like saying can you sit on a chair without sitting on it.
I probably should of stopped at the first two lines, lol.
Cheers, Mac

[Sarah7]

Hey

Also I can cover my ears or my eyes (in direct experience) which without thought or knowledge creates a division between the source, and the receiver (me).

How can you be separate from experience? The experience might change but.....

but where is this line of questioning going ?

Im checking to see if you actually experience separation. Or you think separation.

Can you find a separation between you and hearing then?
Does hearing also happen even when attention is elsewhere?

Touch the table (or any object) with your eyes shut (or open). Pretend like it’s the first time you have ever touched a table. Go straight to the raw sensation/perception. What is your direct experience of this ‘table’? List your direct experience. Is it senses again? Is it thoughts again? Look very closely. Which comes first the senses or the thoughts?
Does the sensation of touching come with a shape, density, weight, size, colour, age or function? Does this sensation come with a ‘not me’ label or ‘other’ label? Is it one sensation/perception or two?
Look at how thoughts try and take over, try and explain, try and prove. Notice your memories or references with which you compare the experience.
Sit with these sensations. Look at them. Look at the labelling e.g. table, hand. Look at the thoughts or story that attach at the end of this list if any. What is your direct experience of these words? Do they exist outside of thought? Are they sensations again? Are they just thoughts again? Look very closely. Which comes first the sensation or the thoughts? Don’t pay attention to the thoughts just look at what they do, when they come in.

Sit on a chair with your eyes closed. Feel the Direct Experience of sitting there. Notice thoughts thinking, labelling and explaining. Notice memory too. Notice sensations experiencing. Notice the sensation of bottom on chair – what is that – a thought? Notice the ‘me’ ‘mine labels e.g. this is my bottom – but look closely at that sensation labelling – is it yours, or just coming and going along with thoughts, ever changing. Is it the thought that wants to own? How many sensations do you notice? 2? One bottom sensation, and one chair sensation? How is that possible? Where does one sensation end and another begin? Locate that line. Can you feel that line? Or is that thought? Can you sense that line – or is that thought explaining the sensation?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Mac2]

Hi Sarah
There is only experience.
Thanks, Mac :)

[Sarah7]

Hi Mac
And what do you notice about the exercises?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Mac2]

Hi Sarah

And what do you notice about the exercises?

Hand on the table, there is just the dull pressure on the palm. the mind labels, or tries to explain. There's not a hand and a table, just the experience.
The same with hearing as well, just the experience of sound, no hearer and no labeled source. There is no line between them, they exist together as experience.
Existence is just experiencing itself through the mirror of relationship.
Cheers, Mac

[Sarah7]

Hey Mac
So have a little fun with smell and taste of you want.

I just want to check on the body, as I like to be thorough!

Stand in front of a bigger mirror.
(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations in the body.
(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror, while still pay attention to the bodily sensations.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations in the body and the sight in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is any?
(3) While still paying attention to the bodily sensations move one of the hands and observe the movement from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (in the hand) and sight of movement in the mirror?
(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (in the hand) and sight of movement?
Or only thoughts suggest it?
(5) Now, pay attention only to the sight in the mirror.
Does the sight by itself suggest in any way that what is seen is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?
Does the sight itself suggest in any way that what is seen is a body at all?
Or there are only colours and shapes?
(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.
Just by the sight, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest it?
(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).
Is there a body anywhere when all mental concepts and images are ignored, or there are only sensations?
(8) Start to walk slowly.
Is there a body walking anywhere, or there are only sensations?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Mac2]

Hi Sarah
Just reading the experiment freaked me out, Lol. Had another one of those, "shit I don't exist" moments. I didn't reply yesterday as it took all my energy just trying to function somewhat "sanely" around other people.

Stand in front of a bigger mirror.
(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations in the body.
(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror, while still pay attention to the bodily sensations.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations in the body and the sight in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is any?

Just felt sensations, with the mind sometimes trying to label a connection.

(3) While still paying attention to the bodily sensations move one of the hands and observe the movement from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (in the hand) and sight of movement in the mirror?
(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (in the hand) and sight of movement?
Or only thoughts suggest it?

Just the felt sensation, looking directly at the hand or the hand in the mirror the same. Thought tries harder here as it has the sight of the movement and the timing of the sensation to work with.

(5) Now, pay attention only to the sight in the mirror.
Does the sight by itself suggest in any way that what is seen is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?
Does the sight itself suggest in any way that what is seen is a body at all?
Or there are only colours and shapes?

There is just seeing, and thought trying to label the image.

(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.
Just by the sight, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest it?

Just seeing.

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).
Is there a body anywhere when all mental concepts and images are ignored, or there are only sensations?
(8) Start to walk slowly.
Is there a body walking anywhere, or there are only sensations?

There are only sensations, and seeing.
Thanks, Mac

[Sarah7]

Hey Mac
Are you ok? Is there experience of big emotions? Fear? If so please let me know.
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Mac2]

Hi Sarah

Yes I'm fine, thankyou for your concern :)

Cheers, Mac

[Sarah7]

Hey Mac
Anymore questions? Anything else unclear? Any uncertainty?
Has the illusion of self been revealed?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Mac2]

Hi Sarah

Yes it's clear, I don't exist and everything is just happening/unfolding without a doer, thinker or seer.

I experienced "self death" before, when it was seen there was no thinker of thoughts. I came here to check if something was still hiding, and you found it. I'd never looked at sensations and separation before, I'd intellectually dismissed myself as being the body without really looking at it and experiencing it.

I understand there is an " After Care " forum of some kind. I would be much interested to join that if possible.

Thanks for your great work, time and effort in helping me.

Cheers, Mac 2. Lol, I should change my name to Mac 0 :)